Should patients pay for thier own meals in hospitals?

[stez]

I suppose it depends on what you expect for a meal. I don't think the nurses actually cook the meals, they would have a catering company to do it. Normally a stay in hospital is kept to the minimum so as to free beds up. If you go in for an operation there is a limit to what you can eat anyway. Maybe some of these people were expecting a four course meal equivalant to a five star hotel. I would have thought the meals were adequate for the time spent in a hospital. It's not as if you want to be in there for long. I'd be more concerened about getting home than what meal I am being served. Surely it is possible to slum it in return for being nursed back to health and being given a few more years to live.

no shit?!

anyway, regarding the meal on the news last night it was bloody awful (looking) and as presentation is sooo important it failed on that score alone.

I've not had to stay in a hospital for a few years but when i did the food was, generally, very nice and when i've been visiting people in hospital more recently their food looked and smelt a lot nicer than my sandwich in a wrapper. sadly though, along with cleaning, meals aren't taken as seriously as they should be in hospitals leading to dirty hospitals and probably to crappy food. so long as mr and mrs rabbit can have their sterilisations for nowt, who cares if the hospital's filthy?

<note> when i was in hospital it was for 3 or 4 months when i was 14 and i was on nil by mouth for at least 3 months so my first meal after that could've been corgi burgers but it would've tasted bloody gorgeous (i don't think it was corgi burgers)

[Daggers]

The senior sister / nurse manager / ward manager should be in charge of everything on the ward.

No he/she shouldn't. Should they then have responsibility for hiring and firing staff at a ward level?

What you are proposing is (kind of) the way it used to be - and was roundly slagged for being ridiculous (as I'm sure you remember). It was Thatcher that dismantled that structure.

As I said in another thread - it's only NHS employees and their spouses that seem to have it in for the NHS:

Patients are becoming increasingly satisfied with the care they receive from the NHS, according to a new survey.More than 80,000 patients from 167 acute and specialist NHS trusts in England were questioned on how they viewed the NHS.Nine out of ten patients rated their NHS treatment from 'good' to 'excellent' in the study conducted by the Healthcare Commission (HC).

I'm not saying the NHS is perfect, on issues such as patient respect and hygiene there have been and continue to be notable shortfalls...but what they knock up food-wise compared to how much it costs is a minor miracle.

Nuff said.

[davieG]

Some people have so much time and money to waste that they become people who live to eat rather than eating to live.

Spoilt springs to mind!

That's not to say it can't be improved but when people are dying and suffering because they can't get into a hospital or get the medication they need it's hardly a top priority.

Even if people did pay, the army of people they'd need to employ to administer it would double the cost of the meals anyway and we'd be back where started, in terms of affordable quality.

[Leicfox]

This is exactly the problem. Yu are either in charge of the ward or you aren't. And if you aren't then you have a problem, becuase then in fact nobody is. The senior sister / nurse manager / ward manager should be in charge of everything on the ward. Simple as that. Cleaners not doing their job - answerable to you. Food not up to sratch, catering manager answerable to you. Porters not doing their job - answerable to you. Everything revolves around and impacts on patient care, all of which should be under the responsiblity and authority of the nursing team. No accountability = crap results. True everywhere.

I agree with that.

[Jon the Hat]

No he/she shouldn't. Should they then have responsibility for hiring and firing staff at a ward level?

Not necessarily, but that is a seperate issue to day to day management. Seperate functional management for each seperated out piece of the puzzle adds management at every level, and this is the fundamental problem.

Yes the NHS is getting better, and will no doubt continue to do so, but we should still expect more. I'm not suggesting that food should be cooked on the ward either, just that the ward manager should have the authority to complain when the service is not up to standard, or cold, or boiled to within an inch of its life etc and expect their to be an improvement.

[Daggers]

the ward manager should have the authority to complain when the service is not up to standard

Everyone has that authority, employed or not.

1. Procedures should be in place within every hospital to allow for concerns to be raised "sensibly and responsibly without fear of victimisation." Staff should have access to local guidance to enable them to raise concerns which includes telling them who to bring concerns to.

2. NHS Direct - 0845 4647

3. Directly to the Trust

4. To the local council (if the food contravenes the law)

and (lastly) to the bastards in the media.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From a recent Panorama survey, it was estimated that 40% of admissions to hospital were clinically malnourished (2006). How making people pay for meals is going to address this is beyond me. The NHS spends £800m a year on food, making it Europe's single largest food buyer, and the average budget for an individual hospital patient is around £1.37 per meal. Source

Anyone here want to tell me what gastronomic delight they could whip up for that amount of money?

[Thracian]

Everyone has that authority, employed or not.

1. Procedures should be in place within every hospital to allow for concerns to be raised "sensibly and responsibly without fear of victimisation." Staff should have access to local guidance to enable them to raise concerns which includes telling them who to bring concerns to.

2. NHS Direct - 0845 4647

3. Directly to the Trust

4. To the local council (if the food contravenes the law)

and (lastly) to the bastards in the media.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From a recent Panorama survey, it was estimated that 40% of admissions to hospital were clinically malnourished (2006). How making people pay for meals is going to address this is beyond me. The NHS spends £800m a year on food, making it Europe's single largest food buyer, and the average budget for an individual hospital patient is around £1.37 per meal. Source

Anyone here want to tell me what gastronomic delight they could whip up for that amount of money?

But you're not buying per meal are you. You are buying in bulk, catering in bulk and with the advantage of being biggest customer.

The hospital's £1.37 should buy a lot more food than the layman's £1.37. Indeed I've seen what they buy for the money and, while there's always room for improvement, it appears quite adequate. But some of the cooking (not all by any means) falls way short at least in my limited but fairly recent experience.

As always though some seem to manage well while other don't - and on the same sort of pro-rata budget presumably.

As for the main question of patients paying or not my instinct saying they shouldn't.

When the NHS was conceived and budgetted for it was always known that patients would have to eat and that their proper nourishment would be complimentary to their wellbeing.

If the NHS is now under strain through being weighed down by weight of customers - for whatever reasons - then it is up to the Government to addresss these issues rather than diluting the service.

[Jon the Hat]

Everyone has that authority, employed or not.

1. Procedures should be in place within every hospital to allow for concerns to be raised "sensibly and responsibly without fear of victimisation." Staff should have access to local guidance to enable them to raise concerns which includes telling them who to bring concerns to.

2. NHS Direct - 0845 4647

3. Directly to the Trust

4. To the local council (if the food contravenes the law)

and (lastly) to the bastards in the media.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From a recent Panorama survey, it was estimated that 40% of admissions to hospital were clinically malnourished (2006). How making people pay for meals is going to address this is beyond me. The NHS spends £800m a year on food, making it Europe's single largest food buyer, and the average budget for an individual hospital patient is around £1.37 per meal. Source

Anyone here want to tell me what gastronomic delight they could whip up for that amount of money?

I don't think it is about the budget of the quality of the ingredients, more the ability to manage the process effectively in order to deliver hot food on time and well presented. How much of the £800M is wasted due to being half cold / poorly presented so the patients doesn't eat it?

Third party catering contractors are just not accountable enough. I'm not saying it's easy, nothing about the NHS is easy.

[Phube]

But why should the State feed you (as in pay for you) just because you're in hospital? Why does being ill alter your ability to pay for your meals?

It may be part of the needs to be heatly, but in that case the Government should always provide healty nutritional meals for us... all the time!

And as someone said earlier, the prisoners should pay for their own as well!!!

[Leicfox]

]But why should the State feed you (as in pay for you) just because you're in hospital? Why does being ill alter your ability to pay for your meals?

It may be part of the needs to be heatly, but in that case the Government should always provide healty nutritional meals for us... all the time!

And as someone said earlier, the prisoners should pay for their own as well!!!

Isn't this what we pay National Insurance for, amongst other things ??? So infact we are paying for it.

[Daggers]

But you're not buying per meal are you. You are buying in bulk, catering in bulk and with the advantage of being biggest customer.

That is my point - making people pay individually will raise the cost to a level where people will simply vote not to have meals.

...the ability to manage the process...

We're not really disagreeing Jon, the answer (as you say) is better management not scrapping the provision.

[Dr The Singh]

Isn't this what we pay National Insurance for, amongst other things ??? So infact we are paying for it.

Good point, as we also pay for the meals of lags!! Also, what if you can't afford to pay for your meals, do you stay hungry?????

[Phube]

Isn't this what we pay National Insurance for, amongst other things ??? So infact we are paying for it.

Good point, as we also pay for the meals of lags!! Also, what if you can't afford to pay for your meals, do you stay hungry?????

No, we pay for them (me) to look after our medical needs! For the drugs, the tests, the people, the equipment, etc.

And if you can't afford to pay, how do they eat at home???? They'd be malnurished anyway??

[Manwell Pablo]

Really not arsed I'm a Bupa member (I think) and the food there is excellent (or it was last time I went about 13 years ago)

I think I should get a tax re-bate for that, especially considering the amount of tax I pay in fags and beer.

[Leicfox]

No, we pay for them (me) to look after our medical needs! For the drugs, the tests, the people, the equipment, etc.

Including meals. We pay the National Health Service as a whole, meals are apart of that service, so we pay them(you) for it.

Do you think the state provide these meals for us out of goodwill ? We get nothing for free.

[davieG]

But why should the State feed you (as in pay for you) just because you're in hospital? Why does being ill alter your ability to pay for your meals?

It may be part of the needs to be heatly, but in that case the Government should always provide healty nutritional meals for us... all the time!

And as someone said earlier, the prisoners should pay for their own as well!!!

Where do you draw the line and believe me people will find plenty of ways to move it.

Let's follow paying for your food and drink with paying for the laundering of your bed clothes, how about for the water you use to wash in, these are all things that you'd deal with at home.

The next problem will be if people are paying up front for their food they'll want a significanlty wider choice, a la carte style or narrower burger, pizza etc depending on the individual, this will increase the cost of delivery significantly.

The cost of charging people will require another army of admin staff, rooms, facilities, another billion pound data base, which will put the cost up to an average resturant level.

I don't know about you but I manage to produce my own meals at a fraction of a resturant price so why should I then have to pay more, which would be inevitable consequence of this idea than what I spend at home?

Paying for your food will not in itself improve the quality there are plenty of resturants I've been in were the value has been totally unacceptable.

Bottom line I don't think it will save money and I don't think it will improve the satisfaction level of the consumers of the food overall.

[Leicfox]

Alot of complaints in hospitals regarding food is because its cold, ive done this myself in Leicester while i was there looking after my grandparents (sadly both have passed). My nana was very ill with alziemers and was taken in, now she couldn't fed herself, and her dinners used to get left on her bedside without being fed, untill me or my wife came to visit, now i don't know if this is a nurses job, or an auxillary but it never got done.

Hence me always complaining about the food being cold.

[Daggers]

You ought to get together with Anthony Steen MP, Phube, I think you have shared interests

[Phube]

That's soooo true though!!!

How many times have you been to a busy shopping centre and seen sooo many Disabled spaces free! It is disproportionate!!

[James.]

Going on my own personal experience the MP has a point.

However saying such a thing on here and in the wider world often results in being labelled racist, homophobic and sexist nevermind offensive to disabled people.

Take the guy from the Disabled Motor Group:

To suggest that disabled people's needs should not be met at the cost of other people's needs, presumably also Anthony Steen thinks that all disabled people should sit at home twiddle their thumbs, not have a job, and perhaps just go to the day centre in an ambulance every day

Err no, quite how he has made that link is beyond me. A worrying over reaction and counter productive to any constructve debate.

I don't particularly care if there are too many disabled spots or not. I'm not lazy (sort of) therefore I will walk that bit extra and be thankful for being able enough to walk. However there is nothing wrong with commenting on this sort of matter and the MP should be free to do so without a ton of reactionary bricks being launched at him.

[Daggers]

Going on my own personal experience the MP has a point.

Yes - he is the very model of a just and forward thinking MP.

[Phube]

I'm the first one to get annoyed when a person without a badge parks in a disabled space. (or even worse people nicking their parent's/grandparent's badges!!)

But the provision of spaces, especially in modern shopping centres, is waaay too much. I have never even seen them half full at; the Shires, Meadowhall, Bull Ring, Trafford Centre or Touchwood.

Prove me wrong!!

[James.]

Yes - he is the very model of a just and forward thinking MP.

No idea if he is or he isn't. I'm guessing probably not though

Irrelevant to my argument, in any case.

[Guest]

The mother who sparked off this entire thread was moaning on the radio this morning about it. Apparently children should have their own chefs to prepare special children's food.

WTF???

I was brought up on proper grown-up food. This obviously will have caused me severe physical and emotional damage. I want to sue my parents, and my school for not providing me with the right kind of food during my infancy.

FFS WOMAN!!! NO WONDER KIDS ARE GETTING OBESE! GET OFF YOUR FRIGGING HIGH HORSE!! SPECIAL FOOD? GIVE ME A BREAK!!

[stez]

The mother who sparked off this entire thread was moaning on the radio this morning about it. Apparently children should have their own chefs to prepare special children's food.

WTF???

I was brought up on proper grown-up food. This obviously will have caused me severe physical and emotional damage. I want to sue my parents, and my school for not providing me with the right kind of food during my infancy.

FFS WOMAN!!! NO WONDER KIDS ARE GETTING OBESE! GET OFF YOUR FRIGGING HIGH HORSE!! SPECIAL FOOD? GIVE ME A BREAK!!

have you seen the muck they served up though? if, like lemond, i had a dog, the RSPCA would've taken it off me if i served it that!