Finnegan Posted 8 February 2010 Author Posted 8 February 2010 Even if we have to take 50,000 over with thousands in the home ends. That's more likely than 70'000 Welsh showing up.
Guest Bilo Posted 10 February 2010 Posted 10 February 2010 From what Finners is saying, it seems as though Wales away could be utter shit. It'll either be played in a half-empty Millennium or one of the identikit homes of Cardiff or Swansea. Give me Scotland at Hampden any day of the week. Onto footballing matters, that group looks as though it should be fairly straight-forward so long as complacency doesn't set in. Switzerland are a well organised side and will attempt to stop us playing, especially away. Montenegro have some decent individuals and Wales could be tough away in front of a partisan crowd, as will Bulgaria. All are very beatable though and I'd be surprised if we didn't end the campaign with at least a 100% home record and possibly a 100% record overall. It would be a massive shock if we didn't stroll the group. As for second, it's more open than Jordan's clunge when she meets a cage fighter. All the teams have the necessary attributes to put in a strong challenge for second place, with Switzerland and Wales arguably the front-runners to do so. They won't play exciting football but my money would be on Switzerland with Wales finishing a highly creditable third. In an open group, the Bulgarians could well end up bringing up the rear behind an improving Montenegro.
Finnegan Posted 10 February 2010 Author Posted 10 February 2010 In the event they leave it in Cardiff's ground I think branding it a rubbish tie in an identikit stadium is a little unfair. Cardiff's ground might lack originality but a full house there to watch England Wales should produce a good atmosphere.
Guest Bilo Posted 10 February 2010 Posted 10 February 2010 In the event they leave it in Cardiff's ground I think branding it a rubbish tie in an identikit stadium is a little unfair.Cardiff's ground might lack originality but a full house there to watch England Wales should produce a good atmosphere. Hmmmm. Depends how Wales play really. If they come at us from the off and the crowd get behind them, it could indeed be a cracking atmosphere. If England score early and dominate, the volume will fall away and it'll be piss-poor. In any case, if the game is played at the CCS, it'll be a bastard to get a ticket.
dandannieldanok Posted 10 February 2010 Posted 10 February 2010 As for second, it's more open than Jordan's clunge when she meets a cage fighter. All the teams have the necessary attributes to put in a strong challenge for second place, with Switzerland and Wales arguably the front-runners to do so. They won't play exciting football but my money would be on Switzerland with Wales finishing a highly creditable third. In an open group, the Bulgarians could well end up bringing up the rear behind an improving Montenegro. Have to disagree personally. I've got nothing against Wales but I think they'll be scrapping for 5th place with Montenegro. I don't really see where all the optimism about Wales has sprung from really, for every promising performance in the last qualifying campaign there were disasters like the Finland defeats, a team who I personally think are much poorer than the likes of Bulgaria and Switzerland. Bulgaria are a tougher outfit than most seem to think, with the trip to Sofia probably the hardest England'll face in my opinion.
Guest Bilo Posted 10 February 2010 Posted 10 February 2010 Have to disagree personally. I've got nothing against Wales but I think they'll be scrapping for 5th place with Montenegro. I don't really see where all the optimism about Wales has sprung from really, for every promising performance in the last qualifying campaign there were disasters like the Finland defeats, a team who I personally think are much poorer than the likes of Bulgaria and Switzerland. Bulgaria are a tougher outfit than most seem to think, with the trip to Sofia probably the hardest England'll face in my opinion. Can see where you're coming from but they're certainly improving. The days of Wales being shit whipping boys are gone in my opinion, and it's an open group where anyone of Bulgaria, Wales or Montenegro can finish fifth. Switzerland are favourites to get the runners-up spot but could easily have a disaster, let's not forget that they managed to lose at home to Luxembourg in the WC2010 qualifiers. So basically, it's an unpredictable group where the only thing that should be fairly easy to predict is that England will win it. Beyond that, very tight indeed.
Finnegan Posted 10 February 2010 Author Posted 10 February 2010 Have to disagree personally. I've got nothing against Wales but I think they'll be scrapping for 5th place with Montenegro. I don't really see where all the optimism about Wales has sprung from really, for every promising performance in the last qualifying campaign there were disasters like the Finland defeats, a team who I personally think are much poorer than the likes of Bulgaria and Switzerland. Bulgaria are a tougher outfit than most seem to think, with the trip to Sofia probably the hardest England'll face in my opinion. Just a guess but it probably helps that when we played Bulgaria recently we beat them at their place with what was, even by our standards, a B team. We also ran Germany and Russia pretty close in our games against the both with a late wondergoal from Piotr Trochowski being the only thing that got by us against the former away from home. Add to that the fact we've a growing line up of rapidly-improving youngsters that are finally starting to bloom and find Premiership football and I think there's some cause for optimism in Wales that we can really start to compete again in qualifying in time for 2012. I've been one of the biggest critics of us under Toshack and a massive cynic on the subject of Welsh football, anyone who wants to accuse me of bias is pretty fooking ignorant. But I do believe we're making healthy progress and I'd certainly rather be a Wales fan than - say - a Montenegro fan at the moment. I'm not for one moment saying we'll qualify and I imagine we will finish beneath the Swiss, but writing us off at this stage seems a little bit dense. If we can get a fully fit best fourteen or so out for a majority of the campaign then I think we'll be a threat with the right mentality.
Samilktray Posted 10 February 2010 Posted 10 February 2010 I think you can finish 2nd Finners, I like what I see when I see some of your youngsters playing.
dandannieldanok Posted 10 February 2010 Posted 10 February 2010 Just a guess but it probably helps that when we played Bulgaria recently we beat them at their place with what was, even by our standards, a B team. We also ran Germany and Russia pretty close in our games against the both with a late wondergoal from Piotr Trochowski being the only thing that got by us against the former away from home.Add to that the fact we've a growing line up of rapidly-improving youngsters that are finally starting to bloom and find Premiership football and I think there's some cause for optimism in Wales that we can really start to compete again in qualifying in time for 2012. I've been one of the biggest critics of us under Toshack and a massive cynic on the subject of Welsh football, anyone who wants to accuse me of bias is pretty fooking ignorant. But I do believe we're making healthy progress and I'd certainly rather be a Wales fan than - say - a Montenegro fan at the moment. I'm not for one moment saying we'll qualify and I imagine we will finish beneath the Swiss, but writing us off at this stage seems a little bit dense. If we can get a fully fit best fourteen or so out for a majority of the campaign then I think we'll be a threat with the right mentality. Haven't a lot of people been saying this for years now though, potential yes, but have the results come?.......not to the extent that you could really see a sustained challenge for 2nd (in my opinion anyway). Looking through the starting line-up against Scotland when you won 3-0, I personally think the claim that you've got "a growing line up of rapidly-improving youngsters that are finally starting to bloom and find Premiership football", is a slight hyperbole (but it all depends on how people rate certain players). I don't understand why Wales are in any better situation than Montenegro are. You say writing off Wales is a bit dense but writing off Montenegro is surely a bit dense too isn't it? Rankings mean f**k all when two teams take to a pitch but you can't get away from the fact that they are higher ranked than Wales and beat Wales in a recent friendly. Also, I think the likes of the Swiss and the Bulgarians would fancy a trip to a 1/4 full Millenium Stadium with it's decent pitch more than a visit to Montengro's rather tight and ramshackled ground (from what I've seen). Obviously it's all down to opinion but I won't be moved on mine that I think it'll be Wales and Montenegro will be fighting for 4th place.
Finnegan Posted 10 February 2010 Author Posted 10 February 2010 Haven't a lot of people been saying this for years now though, potential yes, but have the results come?.......not to the extent that you could really see a sustained challenge for 2nd (in my opinion anyway). Two things to note there. Firstly and foremostly, yes, people have been saying this "for years now" - but you're talking about a period in a footballer's career where the most rapid progression of abilities develops and on top of that, every year that goes by is another year that these boys are playing together as a side. When Toshack started his campaign to bleed in youths the likes of Ramsey, Collison, Evans, Vokes, Hennsey, Edwards and even Ledley weren't even twinkles in the eye of international football. Now they're all getting regular starts for Premiership or Championship clubs. When Toshack started, he was bringing in kids from the likes of Swansea and Cardiff's reserves, Oldham, Southampton or wherever. Now he's got lads playing Champions League games and pivitol roles in Premiership teams and the flower is finally starting to bloom. Besides, our last qualifying group was one of the hardest of all and boys like Ramsey and Collision were only just started to bloom in the U21s when it started. Looking through the starting line-up against Scotland when you won 3-0, I personally think the claim that you've got "a growing line up of rapidly-improving youngsters that are finally starting to bloom and find Premiership football", is a slight hyperbole (but it all depends on how people rate certain players). Five of that starting line up, which missed a few key Premiership players, play regular Premier League football. Others like Joe Ledley are widely considered ready for the step up while those like Ched Evans have top flight experience and will likely end up back there within the next few years. I don't understand why Wales are in any better situation than Montenegro are. Oh really? Wayne Hennesey, Boaz Myhill, Gareth Bale, Danny Gabbidon, James Collins, Sam Ricketts, David Edwards, Aaron Ramsey, Simon Davies and Craig Bellamy all play in what's commonly regarded as the best league in the world. A majority of those are also starting players, Aaron Ramsey has even made an impression at Arsenal gaining first time selection on a number of occasions. What do Montenegro have? Jovetic might be in everyone's footballing wank bank right now and nobody's stupid enough to doubt the quality of Mirko Vucinic, both of whom would piss their way into the England side, let alone Wales - but beyond that, what? How many of them play football in a grade A league? Some of the best they boast are lads playing in Turkey and France's first divisions and even that's a push. I'm not overconfident or complacent, I'm well aware Montenegro will be a challenge (they beat us in a recent friendly, away from home, in a result that was branded an embarassment to John Toshack) but we aren't being branded more likely to challenge in the group purely because it's the British media, it's because we have far better ingredients than they do.
dandannieldanok Posted 10 February 2010 Posted 10 February 2010 Oh really? Wayne Hennesey, Boaz Myhill, Gareth Bale, Danny Gabbidon, James Collins, Sam Ricketts, David Edwards, Aaron Ramsey, Simon Davies and Craig Bellamy all play in what's commonly regarded as the best league in the world. A majority of those are also starting players, Aaron Ramsey has even made an impression at Arsenal gaining first time selection on a number of occasions.What do Montenegro have? Jovetic might be in everyone's footballing wank bank right now and nobody's stupid enough to doubt the quality of Mirko Vucinic, both of whom would piss their way into the England side, let alone Wales - but beyond that, what? How many of them play football in a grade A league? Some of the best they boast are lads playing in Turkey and France's first divisions and even that's a push. I'm not overconfident or complacent, I'm well aware Montenegro will be a challenge (they beat us in a recent friendly, away from home, in a result that was branded an embarassment to John Toshack) but we aren't being branded more likely to challenge in the group purely because it's the British media, it's because we have far better ingredients than they do. I respect the points you make. However you can say all you want about the respective quality of the sides but the fact of the matter is the most recent result was a Montenegro victory. Yes it was only a friendly and it will probably have no bearing on this campaign, but Montenegro will bouyed by that result for sure. As you say, Jovetic and Vucinic are quality players and have the ability to cause huge trouble for every team in the group, you'd rather have those luxury players than not have them despite the perceived mediocrity of the rest of the squad. By the way I'm not at all saying Wales will finish rock bottom of the group and Montenegro will definitely beat them, just trying to provide a different perspective. One major question that hangs over Wales for me is Wayne Hennessey. I know its only one player but this guy is seriously out of form, to the point where some of his performances have been an embarrassment. Anyway, good luck, I'd genuinely like to see both England and Wales qualify. Although I'll be pumped for both our fixtures.
Finnegan Posted 10 February 2010 Author Posted 10 February 2010 Hennesey may be drastically out of form but I honestly believe, on form, he's one of our best one or two players and one of the best British goalkeepers around, for his age he's brilliant - an incredible shot stopper. I sincerely believe, no bullshit, that with the form he was on prior to this season he'd have gotten into the England squad if he wasn't Welsh. Honestly. And as for this "only as good as your last result" rubbish, come on, we don't sincerely believe that. Do we? Do I need to reel off a big list of surprise results and ask whether you really think, for example, Burnley were a better side than Manchester United earlier this year? Montenegro vs. Wales was widely regarded as an upset and not just by the Welsh media but in general. As I said, we have a big group of Premiership and Championship players - they've got a side full of guys playing for unheard of, tinpot sides. I don't mean to sound arrogant but our squads speak far more than one friendly.
dandannieldanok Posted 10 February 2010 Posted 10 February 2010 And as for this "only as good as your last result" rubbish, come on, we don't sincerely believe that. Do we? Do I need to reel off a big list of surprise results and ask whether you really think, for example, Burnley were a better side than Manchester United earlier this year?Montenegro vs. Wales was widely regarded as an upset and not just by the Welsh media but in general. As I said, we have a big group of Premiership and Championship players - they've got a side full of guys playing for unheard of, tinpot sides. I don't mean to sound arrogant but our squads speak far more than one friendly. I personally think teams are far better placed going into a campaign with results behind them, both from the last qualifying campaign and from friendlies. To use the old cliche, winning is a good habit. On that basis Wales will have confidence from the Scotland thrashing but serious questions still linger after the Montenegro disappointment. Apart from Scotland, when was the last time Wales beat a side ranked similarly to Switzerland and Bulgaria (teams who they'll need to beat at least once to challenge for second)? Geniune quesiton btw, I honestly don't know If Wales' squad is so much better than the Montenegro squad then why the friendly loss? I know it's ridiculous to base a future campaign on one measly friendly result but I just wonder about Wales whether they've got enough about them to pick points up on a regular basis. In all honesty I actually think Wales will sneak ahead of Montenegro and finish 4th, I just think it's completely wrong for anyone, Welsh or not, to just assume they'll be ahead of Montenegro. These guys are no mugs, they're not an Azerbaijan or Andorra.
Finnegan Posted 10 February 2010 Author Posted 10 February 2010 Apart from Scotland, when was the last time Wales beat a side ranked similarly to Switzerland and Bulgaria Probably when we recently, as I just said, beat Bulgaria away. Call me dense but, yanno, I'd say then? If Wales' squad is so much better than the Montenegro squad then why the friendly loss? You really ARE going to make me produce a titanic list of upset / unlikely results in football, aren't you? I just think it's completely wrong for anyone, Welsh or not, to just assume they'll be ahead of Montenegro. These guys are no mugs, they're not an Azerbaijan or Andorra. I'm not saying we're going to walk them, or anyone. We could finish bottom, they could finish top. I'm just pointing out that, on paper, they've got a wank squad while ours is at least "average" and that's why people are expecting us to be significantly better than them. Not rocket science, mate.
Sparky Posted 10 February 2010 Posted 10 February 2010 As much as i like to see the Welsh rugby side fail the same does not apply to the football team, in fairness id like to see Wales qualify as long as its not at our expense. I do however believe they will not finish higher than 4th, hope they prove me wrong but just dont see it
dandannieldanok Posted 10 February 2010 Posted 10 February 2010 I'm not saying we're going to walk them, or anyone. We could finish bottom, they could finish top. I'm just pointing out that, on paper, they've got a wank squad while ours is at least "average" and that's why people are expecting us to be significantly better than them. Not rocket science, mate. Well I completely disagree that they have a wank squad, but that's just my personal opinion. For me they have a couple of shining stars, and a malaise of mediocre, competent players, certainly not as bad as you're making out. You really ARE going to make me produce a titanic list of upset / unlikely results in football, aren't you? No , because I personally didn't think it was that much of an upset. We'll see anyway, I think it's clear our opinions differ vastly to say the least. Although I like Montenegro as a country and would love to see them do well, I like Wales even more as a country and would love to see them qualify (behind England of course ), I just personally don't see the 'potential' producing the results as yet.
Bert Posted 10 February 2010 Posted 10 February 2010 Switzerland away will certainly be our toughest test. Bulgaria aren't as good as they were and they haven't qualified for a major tournament for a while now. Wales have shown a lot of promise, but putting promise into action is a different thing. There's a reason why they haven't qualified for anything major for years, and that's because they simply aren't good enough. This may come back to bite me on the bum, I know. Sure, like most other smaller footballing nations, they'll have had more bad luck than others because that's what happens when teams are struggling. I do however, believe if their bigger players hadn't have/don't pull out of friendlies, they'd progress a lot more and would have a much better shout of challenging the play-off places. They're kidding anyone if they think they can win the group. Finners is going to stick up for Wales, and rightly so, but there are 3 better teams in the group and anything better than 4th, they'll have had a good qualifying campaign. Small matter of the World cup first for England, mind.
Finnegan Posted 10 February 2010 Author Posted 10 February 2010 I won't argue with much of that, Bert, I think it's pretty fair. I wouldn't say we're leagues behind Bulgaria, I think they're a somewhat subpar side with a few solid players and a few stars in Berbatov and Martin Petrov. They'll certainly be favourites against us, sure. As I said - I don't mean to imply I think it's going to be easy for us, only that it's easier than previous groups have been and that Bulgaria and Switzerland may be our betters but second is possible, even if not likely.
MC Prussian Posted 10 February 2010 Posted 10 February 2010 Despite Finners' various attempts at creating a heated England vs. Wales debate, there can only be one second-seeded team in this group: I'll make it short.
Finnegan Posted 10 February 2010 Author Posted 10 February 2010 I'm not attempting to create anything. And that's quite possibly the most boring team in world football.
Fox You Forest Posted 10 February 2010 Posted 10 February 2010 I'm not attempting to create anything.And that's quite possibly the most boring team in world football. No Bruno, No chance! Do the Swiss staff even know he's still playing?
MC Prussian Posted 10 February 2010 Posted 10 February 2010 I'm not attempting to create anything.And that's quite possibly the most boring team in world football. Boring maybe. But highly effective. A bit like Uruguay, just with less tackles and World Cup glory.
Finnegan Posted 10 February 2010 Author Posted 10 February 2010 Boring maybe.But highly effective. No wonder you bum the Prussians.
lildave3 Posted 11 February 2010 Posted 11 February 2010 If Bulgaria finish bottom i'll eat my hat. (Which would be impressive, I don't even have a hat)
shen Posted 11 February 2010 Posted 11 February 2010 Despite Finners' various attempts at creating a heated England vs. Wales debate, there can only be one second-seeded team in this group:I'll make it short. It'll be a much harder group to negotiate than the one you just qualified from. Better hope Hitzfeld stays on after the World Cup!
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