lcfc"weasel" Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Standing was relevant to the deaths caused that day - that's good enough for me. Has it been relevant to any deaths since?
Bert Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 As a fan, I respect everybody's differing opinions on what exactly constitutes 'supporting your team'. After reading this thread, it seems that the majority of comments are aimed at those who obviously prefer to stand, but perhaps aren't respecting the wishes of those who prefer to sit. However, I believe that it should actually work both ways in which the wishes of those who do wish to stand should be respected. As Bert has quite rightly bought up, I was 'giving it large' to somebody behind my yesterday. The bloke obviously didn't want to stand, but had no choice but to do so because of others around him. Not once did I question his support or abuse him for his lack of vocal, yet he felt the need to abuse me for generally having a good time and backing my team vocally. None of us were causing any trouble, yet he felt the need to complain to a steward because we were being 'too loud'. As I said before, it should work both ways. I pay money to go to watch a football match, if everybody around me is standing then I believe that my wishes to join in should be respected. I didn't abuse him for not being vocal, yet I was in trouble for being 'too vocal'. The thing is, I was stood on a row with a few other lads who I know obviously have the same mindset as me, in that they want to both sing and stand. Despite this, I felt that I was picked on despite not being the only person involved. You're right in what you say though mate. It was so funny looking down, every so often an i-rate sentence popped out, then you just started singing in front of him. I thought it was pretty funny Didn't really know how other to put it than "giving it large" Would this be the three/four lads with scarves half-ish way down? One turned round having a pop at someone behind him.... Yup. Don't really enjoy all that scarf waving because I think it's a bit gay myself, but the lads were only trying to create a bit of atmosphere, and if you can't do that, what can you do? There were plenty of spare seats about, i'm sure these people could've moved. Another thing that gets on my tits at games is, if people in front of you are standing up, you're not going to sit down behind them are you? I want to see just as much as everybody else does, after all I've paid my money to watch the match. If I'm near the front I'll try and move to where there is space where I can stand or with people I know, If not, I'll just sit down. (begrudgingly)
Guest Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 It beggars belief that the recommendations of the Taylor Report are dismissed by the standing enthusiasts. http://en.wikipedia....i/Taylor_Report But have you read the full report? You can't deny that hooliganism has gone down hugely since the 70s and 80s. That's down to a number of other preventative actions. Standing was relevant to the deaths caused that day - that's good enough for me. Oh my. I can't believe that you've posted that.
Webbo Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 [quote name='Lisa' date='03 April 2010 - 06:44 PM' timestamp='1270316660' post='1597261' That's down to a number of other preventative actions. It's more than just a coincidence that seating and a drop in hooliganism happened at the same time.
unreachable Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Has it been relevant to any deaths since? Maybe that proves seating to be a good idea in general terms. The point is in the forefront of my mind as I'm reading John Motson's autobiography which deals with the Hillsborough Disaster. He says that fans were in the centre of the terracing and had not dispersed evenly which would have been the case if seating had existed. Many other reasons are cited but the fact remains that seating seems to be a positive move towards crowd safety.
Mee Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 There was a lad in front of me who wanted to stand but an older guy behind him kept telling him to sit, but i think we all should of stood. I felt for the standing guy cause it seemed like he really want to just stand and enjoy it. I myself sat through the game because im sure the same guy would of had a go at me
unreachable Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 But have you read the full report? That's down to a number of other preventative actions. Oh my. I can't believe that you've posted that. I was responding to DavieG who conceded in his post that standing was a relevant issue in the Taylor Report.
calum_lcfc Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 We sang untill the last minute yesterday at 3-0 down on the back on 4 straight defeats, not many clubs can say their fan base would do that!!
Joe. Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Standing was relevant to the deaths caused that day - that's good enough for me. Maybe you should do some research about the Hillsborough disaster, and then you'll probably realise what was to blame for the deaths that day. Standing is not dangerous unless there are far too many people in an enclosed space like there used to be. As for our support yesterday, I thought it was pretty good for the first half. There are cretins amongst our lot at every single match no matter where you go, I don't think yesterday was particularly bad for it personally.
Bert Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 It's commonly known that or many people believe that the police were mainly at fault for the Hillsborough disaster.
unreachable Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Maybe you should do some research about the Hillsborough disaster, and then you'll probably realise what was to blame for the deaths that day. Standing is not dangerous unless there are far too many people in an enclosed space like there used to be. As for our support yesterday, I thought it was pretty good for the first half. There are cretins amongst our lot at every single match no matter where you go, I don't think yesterday was particularly bad for it personally. I repeat why do you disagree with the recommendations of The Taylor Report which recommended all seated stadia in the upper divisions.
lcfc"weasel" Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Standing up with seats is more dangerous than standing without therefore, the 'no standing' rule would have to be enforced in order to increase safety. This won't happen because there is no way stewards can stop more than around 10 - 15 people standing if those people really want to stand
Guest Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 It's more than just a coincidence that seating and a drop in hooliganism happened at the same time. Hooliganism hasn't gone away, it's moved. As soon as they knew the authorities were clamping down on them, they moved it way from the stadia. Anyone who thinks that football violence is a thing of the past is mistaken. Rather than tackling the problem, it's just changed locations. I was responding to DavieG who conceded in his post that standing was a relevant issue in the Taylor Report. The South Yorks Police has accepted responsibility for their role. Standing may have been an issue in the Taylor Report, but standing did not kill those fans. As for a relevant issue, why does the report also go into detail about ticket touting, hooliganism, alcohol and the Football Supporter's Act?
Nick Posted 3 April 2010 Author Posted 3 April 2010 So innapropriate behaviour isn't chanting abusive songs about Mattock or abusive songs towards the oppoisition fans...which apprently you liked!? Also how many times have you been to football matches and the police have video taped it!? Fans always complain about over zealous policing, it can often cause more problems.... and finally if you were that disgusted with the support of some people why didnt you move and sit somewhere else, it wasn't a sell out? and yeah ''Kid'' it's an expression some people use !! That's right, chants are par for the course - it was isolated, unnecessary one on one confrontation between individual fans and Stewards that I had a problem with and made an uncomfortable atmosphere. Secondly - I did move. I moved without any complaint to a seat I could sit on as I was standing at the back and needed to sit down for the second half. My complaints about the conduct of fans were all apart from one, away from pitchside. I'm not some old bigot - I just think one can attend a football match without acting like a complete penis. All I'm after is a balance between having a laugh and being a tw@t. It'd be nice if a few more fans could find that balance. Thirdly, Police have facilities to tape every football match they attend in order to gather evidence. I have no problem with this its just that the policeman was stood 30 feet from me filming the cockend behind me for the whole of the second half and it was kinda annoying. Fourthly I'm no 'kid' which is remarkable you should use the expression as you've asked me to 'grow up' and 'remember when I was young' in the space of one post then called me a 'kid' in the second!
Guest Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 I repeat why do you disagree with the recommendations of The Taylor Report which recommended all seated stadia in the upper divisions. I've already stated this, and you've conveniently ignored it. Seating is used to control and identify. That is why the report discusses hooliganism.
unreachable Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Hooliganism hasn't gone away, it's moved. As soon as they knew the authorities were clamping down on them, they moved it way from the stadia. Anyone who thinks that football violence is a thing of the past is mistaken. Rather than tackling the problem, it's just changed locations. The South Yorks Police has accepted responsibility for their role. Standing may have been an issue in the Taylor Report, but standing did not kill those fans. As for a relevant issue, why does the report also go into detail about ticket touting, hooliganism, alcohol and the Football Supporter's Act? People frequently got hurt being crushed against crash barriers on terracing. I remember at Filbert Street that young children got into difficulties when the crowd pushed forward towards the retaining wall. Seating is far more civilised.
Mee Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 After my first ever matches i went to, i automatically picked up that if you want to stand, you ask for a ticket near the top. So i don't see the major harm in standing when fans just want a sing song with their mates. If you don't wish to stand for the match, ask for a lower down seat. At the end of the day,it is up to you where you would like to sit or stand. On the subject of yesterday, i thought we were reasonably good, even when we were losing. And i loved the applause for the lads at the end. Shows the true supporters. Not the guy with the 'chav' coloured hat shouting 'sh*t' and doing the willy puller sign to the players. Thats not a loyal supporter. Thats someone who wishes to go for a pure scrap with the home fans.
SamL Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 You're right in what you say though mate. It was so funny looking down, every so often an i-rate sentence popped out, then you just started singing in front of him. I thought it was pretty funny Didn't really know how other to put it than "giving it large" Thinking back to it mate, I probably didn't do my best to calm the situation down. I tried my best to continue minding my own business, yet every so often I received a poke in the back. The fact that I'd probably had a few too many to drink didn't do my ability to reason any favours, yet in my opinion I didn't do anything wrong in the first place. I had a cracking day out, that's all that matters. I thought is was pretty funny. I probably acted like a twat, but there you go. I still had a good time . If it's people's wish to sit down and be quiet, let them. Personally, the only way I can enjoy myself at a football match is if I have a laugh with my mates, stand up and have a good sing song. If nobody wants to join in then fair enough, but I'll still have a good time as long as I'm doing the above. I thought the main purpose of attending a football match is to support your team. Supporting your team constitutes both backing the players vocally, and in numbers. The thing is, I don't see how people can justify jeering and booing if their purpose of attending a football match is to support their team? Seriously, what good is jeering our Captain going to do?
Guest Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 People frequently got hurt being crushed against crash barriers on terracing. I remember at Filbert Street that young children got into difficulties when the crowd pushed forward towards the retaining wall. Seating is far more civilised. Really? Have you conveniently forgotten the days before fences were introduced to stadia? When children could sit pitchside without being crushed?
davieG Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 You can't deny that hooliganism has gone down hugely since the 70s and 80s. No I can't but how much of it is down to all seating stadium or the changes to the style and levels of policing. Besides my recollection of it is that most of it certainly the more serious and violent aspects of it happened outside of and often away from the stadiums so all seating can't really have had much of an influence on the decline of this type of hooliganism. It may well have triggered a cultural change but that could have happened with purpose designed, carefully managed in terms of numbers and marshalled as they now do seating safe standing areas.
davieG Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Standing was relevant to the deaths caused that day - that's good enough for me. But it wasn't significant, the fencing and the overcrowding in a standing area was as I said if you still had fencing and allowed more people into a seating area that it's designed for you're just as likely to end up with injuries and deaths.
SamL Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 I repeat why do you disagree with the recommendations of The Taylor Report which recommended all seated stadia in the upper divisions. Terracing can easily be controlled and can act as a safe environment. As you have stated, all seated stadia were only recommended in the upper divisions, yet terracing still operates effectively in the lower divisions. If the numbers of people accessing the terrace are controlled, there should be no problem. During the Hillsborough disaster, so many people were crushed due to the fact that the numbers entering the area weren't controlled, mainly due to the incompetence of the Police. I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be safe for an uncontrolled amount of people to enter a seated area.
Webbo Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 No I can't but how much of it is down to all seating stadium or the changes to the style and levels of policing. Besides my recollection of it is that most of it certainly the more serious and violent aspects of it happened outside of and often away from the stadiums so all seating can't really have had much of an influence on the decline of this type of hooliganism. It may well have triggered a cultural change but that could have happened with purpose designed, carefully managed in terms of numbers and marshalled as they now do seating safe standing areas. Tbh this standing/sitting debate bores me. I don't really care one way or another but the all seating rules came in for a purpose and we can't pretend it hasn't made a difference.
Bert Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Has anyone actually said they disagree with the Taylor report?
unreachable Posted 3 April 2010 Posted 3 April 2010 Really? Have you conveniently forgotten the days before fences were introduced to stadia? When children could sit pitchside without being crushed? Why should you assume that I have forgotten anything? Until your campaign changes the Football League's views why not just comply with the civil law which provides that all tickets are sold on the basis of complying with the Ground Regulations and the requirements to sit down? Disobeying a police officer is a breach of the criminal law as well.
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