North Korean aggression

[Trav Le Bleu]

Hmm seems to me.. that Mr Empty seems to know just a little too much about too many things???

El Empty =

:whistle:

[l444ry]

Mossad gang "with Somali pirate passports" suspected in Cheonan hit.

Members of a Mossad hit squad that took care of some nasty Hamas business in Dubai earlier this year may be involved in the recent incident in the Yellow Sea, claims Foxestalk supersleuth El Empty.

A South Korean 1,200-tonne corvette The Cheonan took a massive torpedo hit, sinking with some 40 sailors reported missing. The blast came from a mystery Yellow Submarine whose crew is believed to be carrying faux Somali passports in the name of a notorious pirate gang based in Mogadishu.

Witnesses say the blast started as a simple fishing dispute after the captain of The Cheonan was accused - via the submarine's loudhailers - of "stealing" a shoal of Passover Cod. The annual Jewish holiday started amid widespread panic buying of the endangered marine species.

Around noon local time, Friday, the Yellow Sea shoal was being corralled into a huge offshore net using high tech sonar equipment when it suddenly vanished from the water. "That's when Captain Marko Ramius gave the order to fire on The Cheonan," a witness on the nearby Chevron crude tanker the Altair Voyager said today.

Meanwhile, El Empty was in Pyongyang today, claiming that President Kim Jong Very Ill Indeed would hopping mad if he couldn't get his Passover gefilte fish as promised.

[Flynny]

Actually, I'm not sure this statement holds true. If anything, I would say the North Koreans are very calculating. They know there is no appetite for war from South Korea, nor America, so they know they can be belligerent and to an extent, get away with it. This is not to say the North Koreans want war either, but they realise they can raise the stakes without it leading to war as neither side wants it.

The punishments being talked about are further sanctions through the UN security council. I imagine Kim Jong il is quite comfortable in the knowledge that China would not back any further sanctions as China do not want a further flood of refugees across the border, or worse, do not want the North Korean regime to collapse for fear of the creation of a unified democratic capitalist Korea right on the border of what is poor rural China (rather than the bright lights of Beijing or Shanghai that we see in pictures).

In this sense, North Korea can act in a belligerent manner, reminding the world it is still here, a decrepit nuclear armed country with the ability to cause a lot of damage, so that when talks start to discuss its nuclear programme, it can possibly extract more concessions.

With regards, the "official line", South Korea deliberately asked international investigators from a number of different countries to investigate the cause of the sinking, so that they could not be accused of fraud or conspiracies. Obviously this didn't work for you El Empty, but the point still stands that this an investigation by inspectors from countries such as Sweden, Canada, UK, etc.

Exactly. If North Korea were attacking it could very, very easily literally flatten Seoul. There is nothing the US and South Korea can do except posture.

Saying 'what if it was a set up' is totally different to saying 'it's probably a setup'. Talking utter, utter drivel Empty, even by your own standards. Is your life really that boring?

[BoneDog]

With regards, the "official line", South Korea deliberately asked international investigators from a number of different countries to investigate the cause of the sinking, so that they could not be accused of fraud or conspiracies. Obviously this didn't work for you El Empty, but the point still stands that this an investigation by inspectors from countries such as Sweden, Canada, UK, etc.

I agree with some of your points but not the part about inspectors/investigators that I have quoted. It doesn't matter which country they are from (in my opinion ) because many of them are corrupt as hell. The ones who are trustworthy and will speak out usually end up dead in suspicious circumstances. Many UN investigators are horrible liars who take bribes from governments. I think you would be surprised how many weapons inspectors, and others in similar jobs end up being killed.

One very recent example of the corruption/bribery that takes place is the case of the MMS (Minerals Management Service) and BP and other fuel companies. The MMS is supposed to watch over these companies and make sure that safety is paramount etc. but many of them have been caught out taking bribes and turning a blind eye. The oil rig disaster wouldn't have happened if they were doing their jobs properly because there were warnings.

Quick point on sanctions. There are enough sanctions on North Korea already even if no more sanctions are implemented. And it's the North Korean population who suffer because of these sanctions and not really the regime, just like in Iraq for 12 years it was the people who suffered and died as a result while Saddam continued living in luxury.

I strongly disagree with sanctions because it is always the poor people of the country that suffer for years and years while the dictator is still laughing and doing his work. Hundreds of thousands of children died in Iraq between the first Gulf War and the 2003 invasion directly because of sanctions apparantley aimed at Saddam. Who knows what kind of stuff is happening in North Korea. (I also think that the US government etc. know that sanctions mainly punish civilians but that is a whole other story)

[BoneDog]

Big post....

I like it ! Thumbs up for that one

[BoneDog]

El Empty =

:whistle:

[BoneDog]

Thank you

I thought it might of been a joke too, I just wanted to point out that South Korea did have hold of at least two North Korean torpedos!

[Flynny]

One very recent example of the corruption/bribery that takes place is the case of the MMS (Minerals Management Service) and BP and other fuel companies. The MMS is supposed to watch over these companies and make sure that safety is paramount etc. but many of them have been caught out taking bribes and turning a blind eye. The oil rig disaster wouldn't have happened if they were doing their jobs properly because there were warnings.

A bill that would have introduced the relevant safety feature was successfully lobbied against by oil companies a while back, Slate mentioned it in a piece about how safety regulations are always brought in AFTER disasters. I was about to say 'nothing to do with bribery' but that's basically how lobbyists work so I dunno.

[Webbo]

I strongly disagree with sanctions because it is always the poor people of the country that suffer for years and years while the dictator is still laughing and doing his work. Hundreds of thousands of children died in Iraq between the first Gulf War and the 2003 invasion directly because of sanctions apparantley aimed at Saddam. Who knows what kind of stuff is happening in North Korea. (I also think that the US government etc. know that sanctions mainly punish civilians but that is a whole other story)

But what's the alternative?How can you punish a country for unacceptable behaviour without sanctions or even worse, war?

[BoneDog]

.

Saying 'what if it was a set up' is totally different to saying 'it's probably a setup'. Talking utter, utter drivel Empty, even by your own standards. Is your life really that boring?

Deleted/changed this post cos I think I was getting offensive/defensive and changed me mind!

I don't know what a boring life has to do with anything. My life has slowed down a bit yes, but I'm just over 30 now and that's the way I like it. I did all the partying and other stuff to last a lifetime when I was young, too much I think.

[BoneDog]

But what's the alternative?How can you punish a country for unacceptable behaviour without sanctions or even worse, war?

Why should you punish a whole country for unnaceptable behaviour from a few of its leaders?

Iraq for example is now in a much, much worse situation than it ever was when Saddam was in charge. Why bother with the 12 years of sanctions that killed over a million people in Iraq and then go to war with them and punish the civilians even more? If the US really wanted to help Iraqis they wouldn't have replaced Saddam with people just as corrupt and evil as Saddam was.

Our leaders (US etc.) do exactly the same (but on a larger scale) as people like Kim Yong and Saddam do except our leaders do it to other countries instead of their own people so if we follow the rules then we should have sanctions on us. But it's not about justice is it?

.

[Webbo]

Sorry Empty but none of our leaders in the West do anything like what Kim Jong Il does. They especially don't make unprovoked attacks on our neighbours either.

[BoneDog]

Sorry Empty but none of our leaders in the West do anything like what Kim Jong Il does. They especially don't make unprovoked attacks on our neighbours either.

I think we have to disagree on this one!

The US has attacked (or trained dictators armies in) almost all of it's neighbours in the recent past : Nicaragua, Colombia, Panama, Honduras, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Cuba, Grenada, El Salvador to name some.

The School of the Americas is probably responsible for all of the terror in the last 60 years or so in Latin America and the Caribbean.

[FoxyPV]

Sorry Empty but none of our leaders in the West do anything like what Kim Jong Il does. They especially don't make unprovoked attacks on our neighbours either.

No they prefer to attack countries that are just that bit further away

[shen]

South Korea has a hell of a lot to lose too. What was East Germany still suffers from a disparity with the old West, much to the chagrin of Berlin. Germany has taken years to recover from reunification and many Germans rather wish it hadn't happened. Where this concerns South Korea is the fact that West Germany was far stronger economically than South Korea prior to reunification, and East Germany, while an economic carcrash, was nothing like as big a mess as North Korea. This would certainly cause a short term financial meltdown and almost certainly a medium term economic crisis in Asia as South Korea struggles to take on the scale of North Korea's economic mismanagement. While a unified Korea may in the long term become a strong economy and big player in Asia, the German experience tells us we're going to be looking at an absolute minimum of 20 years before that happens, and those Western governments who have much invested in the South will suffer until then.

That's just not true. The old East Germany has taken years to recover and is still way behind the rest, and this is mainly due to West German businesses fleecing just about every former East German company of its top people. Make no mistake, the medias and politicians will portray the reunification as one big black whole that the 'good' West Germans threw their money into, but they won't tell you how much it boosted the German economy in the years after the Berlin Wall fell..

[ozleicester]

El Empty =

:whistle:

hmmm NEVER seen them in the same room.... Kim Jong Empty

[BoneDog]

hmmm NEVER seen them in the same room.... Kim Jong Empty

If I was in Kim Jongs crew I would of nicked a submarine, sailed or swam (or whatever you call it when you're in a sub!) across the Pacific, through the Panama Canal and up the east coast of the US and tried to take out The White House with a few torpedos/missiles by now!.......Then I would drop off my elite squad of cyber soldiers to storm The White House and gain control of the Western hemisphere I doubt I'd of made it through the Panama Canal though before they were on to me so it would not be a succesful mission. Probably would be taken out before even getting across the Pacific in all honesty

I've been playing too much Command & Conquer I think

[Smudge]

I've been playing too much Command & Conquer I think

At the least Empty,

[breadandcheese]

Why should you punish a whole country for unnaceptable behaviour from a few of its leaders?

Iraq for example is now in a much, much worse situation than it ever was when Saddam was in charge. Why bother with the 12 years of sanctions that killed over a million people in Iraq and then go to war with them and punish the civilians even more? If the US really wanted to help Iraqis they wouldn't have replaced Saddam with people just as corrupt and evil as Saddam was.

Our leaders (US etc.) do exactly the same (but on a larger scale) as people like Kim Yong and Saddam do except our leaders do it to other countries instead of their own people so if we follow the rules then we should have sanctions on us. But it's not about justice is it?

.

Sanctions are a response because the only alternative is regime change, if you want to tackle the leaders at the top. I agree with you, sanctions are horrible, but like Webbo, I see very little alternative, especially when North Korea are a proven nuclear country who have exported technical missile and nuclear technology to other countries.

[Webbo]

No they prefer to attack countries that are just that bit further away

[FoxyPV]

They especially don't make unprovoked attacks on our neighbours either.

Iraq etc aren't close enough to be neighbours

[Webbo]

They especially don't make unprovoked attacks on our neighbours either.

Iraq etc aren't close enough to be neighbours

[FoxyPV]

yes?

It was unprovoked.

[Webbo]

yes?

It was unprovoked.

If you say so.

[The Doctor]

yes?

It was unprovoked.

depends what you consider to be provocation.

The middle east contains a fair bit of oil giving certain countries a large source of income from the US, UK, Japan and similar countries. They can use this as leverage and up the price of oil to what ever they want given our dependence on said oil.

With a dictator such as saddam in charge the profits were no doubt going straight into his and the major regime benefactors pockets meaning the rich get richer while the general public spiral towards poverty. If the americans bring down this regime and establish a democracy in the countries in question ensuring the money filters down to the general public.

Therefore you could argue the iraq war was for the good of iraq and provoked by the mistreatment of its citizens by the saddam regime.