Animal rights

[Charl91]

I do think we should treat animals humanely. I think in most cases we already do

Please don't tell me you're serious.

Population will level out due to declining birth rates not starvation.

If the birth rates carry on declining, then it might level out at 9 billion (which is probably still too many) - however, that's only if the decline in birth rate continues, so that's one of the more posivite outlooks, and even that isn't too positive. If it carrys on at the current rate, then by 2300 it will be 1.3 trillion.

Since people are living longer, we also have about 5 births for every 2 deaths.

You should read more before you reach conclusions.

I have done. Maybe you shouldn't just read the things which suit you.

[Charl91]

It doesn't take a source of info to read through media sensationalism. There are also many scientists who simply laugh out loud at climate change. It is being used as a political tool.

You're as bad as those conspiracy theorists.

[Captain...]

It doesn't take a source of info to read through media sensationalism. There are also many scientists who simply laugh out loud at climate change. It is being used as a political tool.

Name 3.

[MooseBreath]

Name 3.

You'll have to wait. I'm supposed to be pretending to work.

[MooseBreath]

Please don't tell me you're serious.

If the birth rates carry on declining, then it might level out at 9 billion (which is probably still too many) - however, that's only if the decline in birth rate continues, so that's one of the more posivite outlooks, and even that isn't too positive. If it carrys on at the current rate, then by 2300 it will be 1.3 trillion.

Since people are living longer, we also have about 5 births for every 2 deaths.

I have done. Maybe you shouldn't just read the things which suit you.

Birth rates decline when nations become more developed. As long as we keep progressing and the under developed nations with the high birth rates continue to develop then the population will level out. On top of that the ridiculous demographics in China mean they'll be down about 40% within a few decades too.

[Captain...]

You'll have to wait. I'm supposed to be pretending to work.

I stopped pretending when I got my notice, and no it wasn't for pissing about on here all day.

Birth rates decline when nations become more developed. As long as we keep progressing and the under developed nations with the high birth rates continue to develop then the population will level out. On top of that the ridiculous demographics in China mean they'll be down about 40% within a few decades too.

But they also boom as they move from third world to developing, any concessions made in China could be cancelled out by population explosions in Africa.

[acooling08]

I expect the population to decline massively when the next global war starts. We're due one sooner or later.

[MooseBreath]

I stopped pretending when I got my notice, and no it wasn't for pissing about on here all day.

Was it middle management shuffling the pack because they need to be seen to be doing something?

[Captain...]

Was it middle management shuffling the pack because they need to be seen to be doing something?

No it was cost cutting, and as I am a contractor I am easy to get rid of, got a new contract lined up so not fussed.

They will be fvcked though as they are getting rid of all the people that actually do the work and not any of the middle management, they have also made no provisions for me to hand over my job to anybody else.

[OzFox]

No it was cost cutting, and as I am a contractor I am easy to get rid of, got a new contract lined up so not fussed.

They will be fvcked though as they are getting rid of all the people that actually do the work and not any of the middle management, they have also made no provisions for me to hand over my job to anybody else.

That sounds very familiar. No doubt what they should be doing is getting rid of middle management, consultants and HR.

I just went up to HR at my place to get a form signed. Every door you go through needs a coded pass, cameras everywhere. They've sacked so many people they must be expecting a disgruntled employee and a shotgun.

[OzFox]

Amongst other things, yes.

Yes the climate changes naturally, but we are speeding it up massively, just because something happens naturally doesn't mean we shouldn't minimise our contribution to it. Death happens naturally but that doesn't mean we should go around filling old people's homes with noxious gasses, turning up the temperature and cutting off the water supply, in some areas while flooding others. They all died, well that is natural.

Climate change is a fact, not a theory, it is not just about the earth getting hotter on average it, is also causing more extreme weather, greater droughts and more monsoon and flash floods. This is exacerbated by the damage we are doing to the environment with intensive farming and construction that the land is less able to handle these effects, causing monsoons to turn into to landslides.

This is not to mention the damage done to lakes and rivers, through big business irresponsibility, and the destruction of the rainforests and pollution and over fishing of the seas, and the unknown damage of mining out big areas of land to access precious resources.

But lets get back to climate change, what about holes in the ozone layer? Do you not believe they are man made? Do you not believe that they are responsible for increasing the amount of harmful rays entering the atmosphere, increasing the chances of skin cancer, and temperature.

Do you not believe in green house gasses warming the atmosphere? These are facts.

They are man made, and irreversible, or at least not easily done, but all of these things get pushed to the background while we desperately try and get our floundering economy back on track so we can continue to destroy the planet.

This what gets to me. The obsession with "growth" and personal wealth at the expense of just about every other living thing.

[lavrentis]

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Then you are an idiot.

This.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

The real issue with eating meat, that I have,is of the conditions some animals are kept in as they are fattened for consumption, and also the manner in which a number of them are slaughtered.

I do eat meat, but sometimes I worry about the above.

Also, the manner in which battery hens are kept is a disgrace! So much for the human animal.

I try to eat corn fed chickens, and eggs of the same. Obviously, many people can't afford their prices. Thus we have something along the lines of cruelty=cheapness. I can't really ever envisage this changing, sadly.

[Charl91]

The real issue with eating meat, that I have,is of the conditions some animals are kept in as they are fattened for consumption, and also the manner in which a number of them are slaughtered.

I do eat meat, but sometimes I worry about the above.

Also, the manner in which battery hens are kept is a disgrace! So much for the human animal.

I try to eat corn fed chickens, and eggs of the same. Obviously, many people can't afford their prices. Thus we have something along the lines of cruelty=cheapness. I can't really ever envisage this changing, sadly.

^ This

[OzFox]

The real issue with eating meat, that I have,is of the conditions some animals are kept in as they are fattened for consumption, and also the manner in which a number of them are slaughtered.

I do eat meat, but sometimes I worry about the above.

Also, the manner in which battery hens are kept is a disgrace! So much for the human animal.

I try to eat corn fed chickens, and eggs of the same. Obviously, many people can't afford their prices. Thus we have something along the lines of cruelty=cheapness. I can't really ever envisage this changing, sadly.

I picked up a book recently called "Eating Animals". It's quite an eye opener (no doubt there's a copy on ozleicesters bookshelf ) Here's an excerpt about chickens:

The typical cage for egg-laying hens allows each sixty-seven square inches of floor space. Step your mind into a crowded elevator, an elevator so crowded you cannot turn around without bumping into (and aggravating) your neighbor. The elevator is so crowded you are often held aloft.

This is a kind of blessing, as the slanted floor is made of wire, which cuts into your feet.

After some time, those in the elevator will lose their ability to work in the interest of the group. Some will become violent; others will go mad. A few, deprived of food and hope, will become cannibalistic.

There is no respite, no relief. No elevator repairman is coming. The doors will open once, at the end of your life, for your journey to the only place worse ( see: processing ).

Not all chickens have to endure battery cages. For the past half century, there have actually been two kinds of chickens — broilers and layers — each with distinct genetics. We call them both chickens, but they have starkly different bodies and metabolisms, engineered for different "functions." Layers make eggs. (Their egg output has more than doubled since the 1930s.) Broilers make flesh. (In the same period, they have been engineered to grow more than twice as large in less than half the time. Chickens once had a life expectancy of fifteen to twenty years, but the modern broiler is typically killed at around six weeks. Their daily growth rate has increased roughly 400 percent.)

This raises all kinds of bizarre questions like, what happens to all of the male offspring of layers? If man hasn't designed them for meat, and nature clearly hasn't designed them to lay eggs, what function do they serve?

They serve no function. Which is why all male layers — half of all the layer chickens born in the United States, more than 250 million chicks a year — are destroyed.

Destroyed? That seems like a word worth knowing more about.

Most male layers are destroyed by being sucked through a series of pipes onto an electrified plate. Other layer chicks are destroyed in other ways, and it's impossible to call those animals more or less fortunate. Some are tossed into large plastic containers. The weak are trampled to the bottom, where they suffocate slowly. The strong suffocate slowly at the top. Others are sent fully conscious through macerators (picture a wood chipper filled with chicks).

Cruel? Depends on your definition of cruelty (see: cruelty).

[ozleicester]

The real issue with eating meat, that I have,is of the conditions some animals are kept in as they are fattened for consumption, and also the manner in which a number of them are slaughtered.

I do eat meat, but sometimes I worry about the above.

Also, the manner in which battery hens are kept is a disgrace! So much for the human animal.

I try to eat corn fed chickens, and eggs of the same. Obviously, many people can't afford their prices. Thus we have something along the lines of cruelty=cheapness. I can't really ever envisage this changing, sadly.

The real issue "for you" is the way they are kept, and congratulations on your efforts and support of improving their living standards, obviously the efforts of people like you has definitely improved the lot of some animals....(Im not trying to be a smart arse or anything about this)....

But we have to acknowledge that even if they are kept in golden cages and fed the best of everything and then are carefully drugged before being killed... in the end they are killed for the enjoyment we derive from eating them, and (unnecessary) killing is the ultimate cruelty.

Unwanted male veal calf's as far as the eye can see...

Edited 17 September 2012 by ozleicester

[Captain...]

The real issue "for you" is the way they are kept, and congratulations on your efforts and support of improving their living standards, obviously the efforts of people like you has definitely improved the lot of some animals....(Im not trying to be a smart arse or anything about this)....

But we have to acknowledge that even if they are kept in golden cages and fed the best of everything and then are carefully drugged before being killed... in the end they are killed for the enjoyment we derive from eating them, and (unnecessary) killing is the ultimate cruelty.

Unwanted male veal calf's as far as the eye can see...

Where did you get that photo from? and what do you mean by unwanted? Unwanted as in going to be killed for meat, or unwanted as in going to be killed and disposed of?

I know in the UK a huge number of male calves are destroyed at birth, because of their value.

[acooling08]

Ozleicester, where do you stand on the issue of spaying/neutering pets?

Obviously it is for the welfare of the species to prevent overpopulations, and thus prevent more strays and more animals having to be put down.

But clearly the act of mutilating the animal goes would go against it's rights. There are some cases in the world where neuturing humans would be a positive thing (such as controlling populations in Africa where overpopulation adds to terrible starvation and poverty, or as a way to protect the public against serial rapists/paedophiles) but human rights would never allow it. The majority of people would think such actions as evil or inhumane (including myself with the African point but not the rapist point), but the feeling isn't the same with animals - it is seen as 'necessary' for their own good.

What do you think?

[Charl91]

The real issue "for you" is the way they are kept, and congratulations on your efforts and support of improving their living standards, obviously the efforts of people like you has definitely improved the lot of some animals....(Im not trying to be a smart arse or anything about this)....

But we have to acknowledge that even if they are kept in golden cages and fed the best of everything and then are carefully drugged before being killed... in the end they are killed for the enjoyment we derive from eating them, and (unnecessary) killing is the ultimate cruelty.

Yes, but as we have argued ad nauseum, most meat eaters (including me) don't have a problem with animals being killed for food - it's a natural process that is most likely what would happen to them in the wild anyway, and while it's not nice or kind, it's doesn't have to be unnessecarily cruel. The problem is we disagree on two points. You argue that it's for enjoyment purposes only, but most of us disagree, any more than eating vegetables is for enjoyment. You argue that it's cruel, while we argue that it's natural. We're never going to come close to seeing each others point of view on this, and animals will always be eaten untill we can synthetically grow meat.

What I will argue is that regardless of how cruel you believe killing animals is, the way they are treated in their life-time before they are killed is many many times more cruel and inhumane, and it's in that area in which it is imperative that massive changes should be made.

[Guest MattP]

Having London Broil tonight, it's a shame this dish doesn't get more popularity over here, it's one of the best things the Yanks ever came up with.

Edited 17 September 2012 by MattP

[foxesfan1989]

I hope the London lcfc fans are enjoying their delicious meal of rat tonight...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19622903

[MooseBreath]

Having London Broil tonight, it's a shame this dish doesn't get more popularity over here, it's one of the best things the Yanks ever came up with.

that's a lovely bit of animal right there

[OzFox]

Yes, but as we have argued ad nauseum, most meat eaters (including me) don't have a problem with animals being killed for food - it's a natural process that is most likely what would happen to them in the wild anyway, and while it's not nice or kind, it's doesn't have to be unnessecarily cruel. The problem is we disagree on two points. You argue that it's for enjoyment purposes only, but most of us disagree, any more than eating vegetables is for enjoyment. You argue that it's cruel, while we argue that it's natural. We're never going to come close to seeing each others point of view on this, and animals will always be eaten untill we can synthetically grow meat.

What I will argue is that regardless of how cruel you believe killing animals is, the way they are treated in their life-time before they are killed is many many times more cruel and inhumane, and it's in that area in which it is imperative that massive changes should be made.

Trouble is it's almost impossible to police. There's been numerous incidences recently of animal brutality in slaughterhouses. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking UK, US, Australia and Indonesia...things like eye gouging, beating with hammers, killing slowly with knives, shoving electric prods in noses, eyes etc etc. It's all happening and continues to happen in this so called "regulated" industry. It seems some people who work in abattoirs rapidly desensitize to the point where if they're having a bad day, they just go and torture a cow. Unfortunately the more meat we buy, the more we're effectively condoning this sort of behaviour.

There was a particularly bad case over here last year. The government said they'd sorted it out so one of the wildlife groups said "Ok, prove it. Install webcams in slaughterhouses". You can imagine the meat industry reaction to that.

[Guest MattP]

I hope the London lcfc fans are enjoying their delicious meal of rat tonight...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19622903

Anyone who buys food from Africans on an East London market deserves what they get.