Animal rights

[ozleicester]

Last night I did a sort of byrani with Quorn mince. Wasn't too bad. Added some curry powder so had to have a bottle of beer to cool it down. The byrani may have been better with more herbs and spices and some veg but it was a change to my usual Sunday dinner. Easy to do in he microwave.

Quorn mince is brilliant, we put it in and on all sorts. With a good sauce etc..lovely

[Rincewind]

If it tasted similar and wasn't three times as much to buy I could be weened on it. Food is food. It just has to taste good be resonably priced and have some nutritional value.

Food seems to taste better when there is a bit of colour and flavour to it and it looks good on a plate. A lump of nut roast with a leaf of lettuce does not do it for me. Slices of beef, roast potatoes, yorkshire pud and a sprinkle of peas, carrots andcabbage does.

[Zingari]

Thanks for the honest reply Oz , very interesting .

[ozleicester]

If it tasted similar and wasn't three times as much to buy I could be weened on it. Food is food. It just has to taste good be resonably priced and have some nutritional value.

Food seems to taste better when there is a bit of colour and flavour to it and it looks good on a plate. A lump of nut roast with a leaf of lettuce does not do it for me. Slices of beef, roast potatoes, yorkshire pud and a sprinkle of peas, carrots andcabbage does.

Part of the responsibility that the Veggies have, is to create food that is tasty and appealing. Slowly that is happening.

3 christmasses ago i had the worst Tofurkey... flavourless, rubbery... just all round unpleasant, needless to say we wont be having that again, we will find a tasty alternative.

[Zingari]

Part of the responsibility that the Veggies have, is to create food that is tasty and appealing. Slowly that is happening

yes but they'll have to bring the price of burgers down from the 350k euros stated in that link

[marty78]

Have you bothered to read ANY of the preceding pages, i stated on at least 3 occasions that it is an evolutionary/generational change.

You seemed to dismiss someone caring about animals as they still eat them. I therefore took it that you wanted all or nothing which would be instant change not an evolutionary/generational one. I must have misinterpreted what you actually said so I will backtrack through the thread and come back to this.

(1) What makes killing of other people wrong, you dont seem to see that as an opinion, you seem to accept it as fact.

(2) So its just about the law?

(3) Even given my disagreements with you.... I am sure that you are capable of deciding wrong from right based on your own intellect...rather than accepting what you are told?

Battery farming is legal - but it shouldnt be

Standing at football games is illegal - but it shouldnt be

(4)If all you do is "follow laws under whose jurisdiction I live" then i honestly do despair for you and your society.

I've numbered your points to make my response clearer:

(1) Law + personal opinion.

(2) No personal opinion and law together.

(3) Again I take what I am told (learnt) and then use law and personal opinion to make a judgement.

(4) It is not all I do which I why I have added personal opinion to each answer.

Would I break the law? Only in circumstances when it conflicted very strongly with my personal opinions and even then not lightly. If meat eating was illegal then I would not eat meat, it isn't, so I see it as a personal choice.

I hope you don't feel I am being awkward simply to annoy you as that is not the case. I am genuinely interesting in understanding how you have reached your conclusions and why you live the way you do. I am not easily convinced though and will always ask questions.

[marty78]

I recently had a discussion with friends (yes i do have them) about the new invitro meat.

http://www.reuters.c...E7AA30020111111

What does everyone think... are you happy to eat "created meat"?

I would indeed eat such meat. I have no fear of technology and providing it was a safe and realistic alternative, then no problem. I was at some point going to ask you the exact same question, would you eat it?

[ozleicester]

You seemed to dismiss someone caring about animals as they still eat them. I therefore took it that you wanted all or nothing which would be instant change not an evolutionary/generational one. I must have misinterpreted what you actually said so I will backtrack through the thread and come back to this.

I've numbered your points to make my response clearer:

(1) Law + personal opinion.

(2) No personal opinion and law together.

(3) Again I take what I am told (learnt) and then use law and personal opinion to make a judgement.

(4) It is not all I do which I why I have added personal opinion to each answer.

Would I break the law? Only in circumstances when it conflicted very strongly with my personal opinions and even then not lightly. If meat eating was illegal then I would not eat meat, it isn't, so I see it as a personal choice.

I hope you don't feel I am being awkward simply to annoy you as that is not the case. I am genuinely interesting in understanding how you have reached your conclusions and why you live the way you do. I am not easily convinced though and will always ask questions.

No worries, i welcome discussion, the opportunity to learn is one i will always take.

Im not sure what you questions are now.

I will never just accept something because it is law, if i believe it to be wrong i will either fight it, or ignore it. So the personal opinion is the deciding factor for me. That opinion is based on the life ive lead and and what i believe to be right

[ozleicester]

I would indeed eat such meat. I have no fear of technology and providing it was a safe and realistic alternative, then no problem. I was at some point going to ask you the exact same question, would you eat it?

Indeed i would, its not perfect in that the first animal died/suffered for its creation, but i expect that in a few short years, we will be creating it from itsself and woohhooo, i can eat all the bacon i want...and not need to kill anything for it

[ozleicester]

yes but they'll have to bring the price of burgers down from the 350k euros stated in that link

meh... just a drop in the ocean for people such as yourself Zing.

[marty78]

No worries, i welcome discussion, the opportunity to learn is one i will always take.

Im not sure what you questions are now.

I will never just accept something because it is law, if i believe it to be wrong i will either fight it, or ignore it. So the personal opinion is the deciding factor for me. That opinion is based on the life ive lead and and what i believe to be right

No question there mate. Just wanted you to understand how I see law and opinion and to see that I use both to make a decision rather than one overruling the other. Your standing at the football is a good example as I don't agree I shouldn't have the choice of standing but I accept that it is not allowed so I sit. If I felt really strongly I would protest but it is just a minor annoyance so I accept it.

[Captain...]

Indeed i would, its not perfect in that the first animal died/suffered for its creation, but i expect that in a few short years, we will be creating it from itsself and woohhooo, i can eat all the bacon i want...and not need to kill anything for it

I was going to ask the same thing, I am surprised you said you would, especially considering the source is animal carcasses, even if only in the research, or is that ok if just one animal dies to provide you with unlimited bacon sarnies. I'm also surprised that you really miss bacon that you actually still want it now despite your beliefs, do you not think it sad that you have limited yourself by your choices so that you cannot eat something you enjoy.

I probably wouldn't eat that "meat", I will always try and consume organic products, and I am distrusting of consuming processed meats, and like to know my food is natural and as nature intended.

Even if it became common place, and proven to be identical in form, content, structure, nutrition etc, I would prefer to know the meat I am eating walked around and fattened up on natures bounty.

[marty78]

Indeed i would, its not perfect in that the first animal died/suffered for its creation, but i expect that in a few short years, we will be creating it from itsself and woohhooo, i can eat all the bacon i want...and not need to kill anything for it

That is interesting and a more realistic solution, I feel, than changing our eating habits. It may take more than a few years though to get many people on board and I would assume some religious movements would take some convincing on the grounds that they may feel we are playing God.

If this meat could be produced large scale at a reasonable cost then maybe some of the poorer areas of the World, where children regularly die of malnutrition, would have a realistic method of gaining access to sustained food supplies.

[Zingari]

At what point do you consider the life of an animal is more expendable than one's own personal discomfort or danger ?

eg

If you were given a simple choice , would you kill a dog rather than have the dog give you a serious and painful (but not life threatening) bite ?

This is off topic a bit i know, but i thought it would be interesting to see just where we would draw the line in the sand and say "bye bye doggy"

please feel free to say and give examples of when you would be prepared to kill an animal ( dog cat horse etc not wasps or flies) rather than suffer personally

[Captain...]

If a dog was coming for me, snarling, with its teeth bared and with blood lust in its eyes, and I had no way of getting away, I would give it a sharp kick to the head, probably aiming for the bottom of its jaw and getting some neck as well, if it dies so be it, if it runs away I will not hunt it down and kill it. If it persists and I have to hurt it more or kill it to protect myself, or someone else, I will do.

The other side of it is putting a dog down because it is a menace to other people and animals, I would be interested in Oz's view on this, would you put down a dog that was a threat to other animals and children?

[Zingari]

If a dog was coming for me, snarling, with its teeth bared and with blood lust in its eyes, and I had no way of getting away, I would give it a sharp kick to the head, probably aiming for the bottom of its jaw and getting some neck as well, if it dies so be it, if it runs away I will not hunt it down and kill it. If it persists and I have to hurt it more or kill it to protect myself, or someone else, I will do.

So if you had a gun in your hand( this was your only means of defence) , would you kill the dog at the prospect of receiving a bite rather than risk the possibility of a bite or would you wait until the outcome was clear cut ? ie would you shoot at 10 metres or the moment the dog leapt at you at the risk of still being bitten ?

[Houdini Logic]

Quorn mince is brilliant, we put it in and on all sorts. With a good sauce etc..lovely

You realise until fairly recently certain Quorn products contained non free range egg whites? It's why the vegetarian society wouldn't allow them to use their logo.

So your opinion on battery farms?

[Captain...]

So if you had a gun in your hand( this was your only means of defence) , would you kill the dog at the prospect of receiving a bite rather than risk the possibility of a bite or would you wait until the outcome was clear cut ? ie would you shoot at 10 metres or the moment the dog leapt at you at the risk of still being bitten ?

I did think about weapons, but the idea of me having a gun, let alone knowing how to fire it, is pretty remote, but I don't think I would just shoot an animal like that, I would probably wait until it launched itself at me and then kick it, or smack it on the top of the head with the butt of the gun, unless it was a rifle, then I would swing at it like a baseball bat.

Unless I was in an area where rabies is a problem, and the dog looked rabid, in which case **** that shit, I'd kill it as soon as look at it, rabies is nasty and it is probably better for the dog too.

[Trav Le Bleu]

If a dog was coming for me, snarling, with its teeth bared and with blood lust in its eyes, and I had no way of getting away, I would give it a sharp kick to the head, probably aiming for the bottom of its jaw and getting some neck as well, if it dies so be it, if it runs away I will not hunt it down and kill it. If it persists and I have to hurt it more or kill it to protect myself, or someone else, I will do.

The other side of it is putting a dog down because it is a menace to other people and animals, I would be interested in Oz's view on this, would you put down a dog that was a threat to other animals and children?

The highlighted part nearly made me spit coffee all over my monitor

It would take a special kind of retardedness to do that.

[Zingari]

I’m trying to do one of those “ moral maze†type situations if you know what I mean , but I guess I’m not that good at setting them.

The sort of hypothetical, but highly unlikely situations where you have to make moral choices based on the likelihood of the outcome and what value you put on things in a sort of straight swap situation .

Perhaps if someone knows what i'm babbling on about they could help me out here

For instance , if you were caught in the wilderness and knew you were going to be rescued within days before you actually starved to death , would you kill and eat rabbit that had come close enough to you just because you were desperately hungry or would you wait until the inevitable rescue even if it meant severe hunger pains for a few days ?

[Captain...]

I’m trying to do one of those “ moral maze†type situations if you know what I mean , but I guess I’m not that good at setting them.

The sort of hypothetical, but highly unlikely situations where you have to make moral choices based on the likelihood of the outcome and what value you put on things in a sort of straight swap situation .

Perhaps if someone knows what i'm babbling on about they could help me out here

For instance , if you were caught in the wilderness and knew you were going to be rescued within days before you actually starved to death , would you kill and eat rabbit that had come close enough to you just because you were desperately hungry or would you wait until the inevitable rescue even if it meant severe hunger pains for a few days ?

I'd eat you.

[Houdini Logic]

I'd eat you.

I think he was on about hunger, not sexual tension...

[acooling08]

ozleicester, have you considered the potential economic impacts of the whole world going veggie?

- Many many animals farmers would be screwed. Also, a mass convserion of land from pastoral to arable would also really badly affect vegetable/wheat/corn etc farmers. The market would be flooded with these products, thus lowering the prices massively. This would be devastating for third world farmers especially, potentially causing mass loss of human life, which as you said earlier is more valuable than animal life. Not to mention that many many areas lack the soil nutreints needed to support any real vegetables other than grass for cattle.

- Diners, restaurants etc would lose massive buisness. The 'full english' of bacon, sausages and the like is a banker income for most cafes. Pubs and the like would miss the income from selling steak and lamb, which is often twice the price of veggie alternatives.

- Maybe not a big loss (except for the millions of workers), but McDonalds, KFC etc etc would all have to close, or at the least downsize massively. I can't imagine foot outlets bustling with people if they could only get vegetarian options.

- Even if fast food and cafes could adapt, certain specialised companies certainly couldn't. Birds eye, fray bentos, bernard matthews, melton mowbray pork pies, would all die.

*Awaits insulting response from Daggers*

[Rincewind]

If it was just you and your pet dog Fido stranded on a desert island which one of you would break first and make a meal of the other. Remember only you knows how to make a fire so Fido may eat you raw.

[ozleicester]

If a dog was coming for me, snarling, with its teeth bared and with blood lust in its eyes, and I had no way of getting away, I would give it a sharp kick to the head, probably aiming for the bottom of its jaw and getting some neck as well, if it dies so be it, if it runs away I will not hunt it down and kill it. If it persists and I have to hurt it more or kill it to protect myself, or someone else, I will do.

The other side of it is putting a dog down because it is a menace to other people and animals, I would be interested in Oz's view on this, would you put down a dog that was a threat to other animals and children?

..its starting make sense now

Captain Gareth Shrapnel, speaks

I have said... on numerous occasions throughout this topic, that i have no problem with self protection.