Animal rights

[ozleicester]

How do you know other omnivore animals don't know that killing is wrong but continue anyway , you've put many other human emotions on them , why pick and choose which ones you believe they possess ?

I'm looking forward to seeing Innuits in grass skirts though

cool.. great question.. ive never thought about that.

My assumption is, once and animal realises that killing for pleasure is wrong, it has evolved and developed understanding and empathy to a point that it would stop doing what it knew to be wrong.

Having said that...many "people" seem to know that killing for pleasure is wrong and they continue doing it.. so theres a fair chance other animals would also.

[Zingari]

cool.. great question.. ive never thought about that.

My assumption is, once and animal realises that killing for pleasure is wrong, it has evolved and developed understanding and empathy to a point that it would stop doing what it knew to be wrong.

Having said that...many "people" seem to know that killing for pleasure is wrong and they continue doing it.. so theres a fair chance other animals would also.

But even if we stop eating meat which you describe as equating to killing for pleasure , we would have to protect crops, and that would involve the killing of other animals .

Even if we didn't do the necessary killing ourselves and totally relied on other predatory animals, this would just mean a reliance on these predators to do our dirty work for us . We'd just be turning a blind eye for the sake of our own survival .

edit;

It's similar to saying that I wouldn't shoot or bludgeon a burglar in my house , but if my pet rottweiler savaged him to death , that's ok .

[OzFox]

I guess there are a few Inuit who may disagree, not much foliage in their world

There seem to be a misconception that Inuit only live in the snowy wastes. The Inuit I met in Alaska spent most of their time in town, filling their faces at Dennys and Walmart.

These are the same "traditional" hunters that use high powered rifles, motor boats and snowmobiles to hunt endangered polar bears and bowhead whales.

[MooseBreath]

For me this is not a "moral issue" its about one species believing it has the right use the planet's resources, simply for their own pleasure.

Just because humans have developed the technology and we are therefore capable of using the planet's resources, does not just make it right.

I am more intelligent than most many some at least a couple of people, and i have access to the internet, this does not mean I have the right to just boot up my machine and burn energy as and when I see fit.

Human beings no longer need to use the internet and therefore we no longer have the right to destroy resources simply for that purpose.

[James.]

There seem to be a misconception that Inuit only live in the snowy wastes. The Inuit I met in Alaska spent most of their time in town, filling their faces at Dennys and Walmart.

These are the same "traditional" hunters that use high powered rifles, motor boats and snowmobiles to hunt endangered polar bears and bowhead whales.

When I was in the Alps last year I met a guy from northern Canada who taught at a school in a town primarily populated by native Inuit. He said most of them were massively fat and lazy who spent an inordinate amount of time eating pizza.

[Captain...]

When I was in the Alps last year I met a guy from northern Canada who taught at a school in a town primarily populated by native Inuit. He said most of them were massively fat and lazy who spent an inordinate amount of time eating pizza.

But this is a different problem caused by our progress, we introduce foreign food and diets and alcohol and tobacco to indigenous people and then laugh at them when they are unable to handle and cope with these things.

Stupid fat Inuits, they can't handle saturated trans fats and processed crap.

[Darkon84]

But this is a different problem caused by our progress, we introduce foreign food and diets and alcohol and tobacco to indigenous people and then laugh at them when they are unable to handle and cope with these things.

Stupid fat Inuits, they can't handle saturated trans fats and processed crap.

Maybe Australians should spend less time moaning about poor likkle animals and more time helping their indigenous population out of alcohol abuse and homelessness

[Darkon84]

But even if we stop eating meat which you describe as equating to killing for pleasure , we would have to protect crops, and that would involve the killing of other animals .

Even if we didn't do the necessary killing ourselves and totally relied on other predatory animals, this would just mean a reliance on these predators to do our dirty work for us . We'd just be turning a blind eye for the sake of our own survival .

edit;

It's similar to saying that I wouldn't shoot or bludgeon a burglar in my house , but if my pet rottweiler savaged him to death , that's ok .

This is a point which I raised on the previous page and couldnt get a satisfactory answer. The best answer was that the person cant do much about that as they are a teenager (no offence mate, just thought your argument on that occasion was weak)...though they think they can do something about the world eating meat. Oh well.

The point still stands though. Do vegetarians and vegans know 100% whether or not their fruit and veg has been grown 100% organically? Pesticides and fertilizers kills all kinds of wildlife living in the feilds and on the crops, as well as the animals and eco systems in the nearby waterways where the excess runs in to. What are we to do about this unlawful, cold murder?

[James.]

But this is a different problem caused by our progress, we introduce foreign food and diets and alcohol and tobacco to indigenous people and then laugh at them when they are unable to handle and cope with these things.

Stupid fat Inuits, they can't handle saturated trans fats and processed crap.

I wasn't passing an opinion either way, I was just commenting on the misconception the previous poster had drawn attention to.

[Reynard Bleu]

I wasn't passing an opinion either way, I was just commenting on the misconception the previous poster had drawn attention to.

The point was that its easier for those living in the developed world to make a choice about their diet than it is for a significant number of the worlds population. I'm sure there are many Inuits whi still eat and live in the traditional way.

[OzFox]

When I was in the Alps last year I met a guy from northern Canada who taught at a school in a town primarily populated by native Inuit. He said most of them were massively fat and lazy who spent an inordinate amount of time eating pizza.

Yep.

Maybe Australians should spend less time moaning about poor likkle animals and more time helping their indigenous population out of alcohol abuse and homelessness

We said "sorry". What more do they want? Anyway, I'm a Pom and therefore indirectly responsble for their plight. As are you.

And what's with all the ikkles and likkles in this thread? You might think caring about animals is childlike. I don't.

[Guest MattP]

We said "sorry". What more do they want? Anyway, I'm a Pom and therefore indirectly responsble for their plight. As are you.

And what's with all the ikkles and likkles in this thread? You might think caring about animals is childlike. I don't.

You should have wiped them out anyway, 2,000 years and they invented a boomerang and a didgeridoo, if we had left them how long do you think it would have taken them to get to the moon?

When I was over there they kept asking me to buy more wine for them, annoying, been worshipping a god called Quantas for the last 50 years.

[21st Century Fox]

Why is getting to the moon the pinnacle of human advancement?

I genuinely not sure if you're being serious sometimes.

[James.]

The point was that its easier for those living in the developed world to make a choice about their diet than it is for a significant number of the worlds population. I'm sure there are many Inuits whi still eat and live in the traditional way.

I completely agree, I do think there's a misconception though - finding out that a good proportion of some Inuit communites were actually fat and lazy was a surprise to me. Part of it is obviously related to the remoteness of their communities - fresh fruit and veg gets flown in once a week or something so is incredibly limited where as lovely, preservative-ridden deep pan pizza is there on tap.

Anyway I think the developed world having the luxury of choice is an important point, although to be fair ozleicester has acknowledged this to a certain extent. My girlfriend is doing development work in Uganda at the minute and the food she eats is solely a function of whatever is available and affordable on the day. Given that billions of people live below the poverty line I'd imagine most of the world is in a similar situation.

[Guest MattP]

Why is getting to the moon the pinnacle of human advancement?

I genuinely not sure if you're being serious sometimes.

It's quite frightening you thought that post may not be tongue in cheek.

[James.]

It's quite frightening you thought that post may not be tongue in cheek.

I thought it was but you do come out with some weird shit sometimes so I wouldn't be too surprised...

[Guest MattP]

Here's some more then.....

James - Off the record and off topic but are you actually Ugandan? I've been offered a seat at "Miss Uganda" tomorrow at York Hall in Bethnal Green. What are the women like?

[21st Century Fox]

It's quite frightening you thought that post may not be tongue in cheek.

I thought it was but you do come out with some weird shit sometimes so I wouldn't be too surprised...

What he said.

[James.]

Here's some more then.....

James - Off the record and off topic but are you actually Ugandan? I've been offered a seat at "Miss Uganda" tomorrow at York Hall in Bethnal Green. What are the women like?

lol

I only have one thing in common with a black man and it's not the colour of my skin.

No, I'm not Ugandan but I am going there next week to reacquaint myself with the mrs, who is also not Ugandan, she's just working out there for a couple of months. Funnily enough I live round the corner from York Hall though (I imagine you've already been there for the boxing), sounds like an opportunity not to be missed.

[Guest MattP]

lol

I only have one thing in common with a black man and it's not the colour of my skin.

No, I'm not Ugandan but I am going there next week to reacquaint myself with the mrs, who is also not Ugandan, she's just working out there for a couple of months. Funnily enough I live round the corner from York Hall though (I imagine you've already been there for the boxing), sounds like an opportunity not to be missed.

Yeah it's a fantastic venue, my mate is doing the security there tomorrow so might actually take him up on the offer, be different that's for sure.

[MooseBreath]

I hope you took some diameter measurements before your Mrs went off to Uganda. There's only one real reason why a women goes to a place like that on her own.

[OzFox]

The point was that its easier for those living in the developed world to make a choice about their diet than it is for a significant number of the worlds population. I'm sure there are many Inuits whi still eat and live in the traditional way.

Maybe in Greenland. Although not for much longer if the ice keeps melting.

Certainly the ones I came across in Alaska were all too keen to make use of modern technology, both at home and for hunting. Why paddle after a narwhal with a kayak and harpoon when you can use a motorboat and a rifle? Inuit are still allowed to kill hundreds of polar bears every year. They can also make big money guiding foreign "sportsmen" who want to kill a polar bear.

[ozleicester]

But even if we stop eating meat which you describe as equating to killing for pleasure , we would have to protect crops, and that would involve the killing of other animals .

Even if we didn't do the necessary killing ourselves and totally relied on other predatory animals, this would just mean a reliance on these predators to do our dirty work for us . We'd just be turning a blind eye for the sake of our own survival .

edit;

It's similar to saying that I wouldn't shoot or bludgeon a burglar in my house , but if my pet rottweiler savaged him to death , that's ok .

Fences will prevent most problems and yes other predators will manage the rest, its not really the same as your analogy, those predators are killing out of neccessity, your rotty isnt.

[ozleicester]

For me this is not a "moral issue" its about one species believing it has the right use the planet's resources, simply for their own pleasure.

Just because humans have developed the technology and we are therefore capable of using the planet's resources, does not just make it right.

I am more intelligent than most many some at least a couple of people, and i have access to the internet, this does not mean I have the right to just boot up my machine and burn energy as and when I see fit.

Human beings no longer need to use the internet and therefore we no longer have the right to destroy resources simply for that purpose.

so... stop using it..please do us all a favour.

[ozleicester]

Maybe Australians should spend less time moaning about poor likkle animals and more time helping their indigenous population out of alcohol abuse and homelessness

The british invaders abuse of the aborigines is horrific, we have obliterated their society and continue to do so, i would wlecome your support at our next event, come along join in and assist, youll be most welcome.

This may come as a surprise... but some of us are capable of being passionate, supportive and fight for more than one thing at a time.