THEFATBASTARD Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 Is it just me...but are farmers blockading milk processing plants being treated differently to everyone else? I can't help thinking if they had miners helmets on or carried student cards they would be batoned / beaten and kettled by police in riot outfits...no condemnation from the government..just "understanding" and concessions ..they seem to be allowed to prevent others from going about their lawful business while others are treated totally differently.... or am I just cynical?
Captain... Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 Is it just me...but are farmers blockading milk processing plants being treated differently to everyone else? I can't help thinking if they had miners helmets on or carried student cards they would be batoned / beaten and kettled by police in riot outfits...no condemnation from the government..just "understanding" and concessions ..they seem to be allowed to prevent others from going about their lawful business while others are treated totally differently.... or am I just cynical? It is hard to kettle a blockade, and despite the governments' (plural not aiming this solely at the current lot) best efforts at reducing our right to protest, we are still legally entitled to do so. Also this is not directly related to any decision made by the government, but more about the way the big supermarkets have driven down the price they pay for milk, whilst increasing the price they sell it for. It has got to the point now where farmers are making a loss on the milk, but can't afford not to accept these low prices because otherwise they will end up with a bigger loss on their hands. Once again greed and big business are screwing people over to make more profit. I'm with the farmers.
MooseBreath Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 If somebody else can produce the milk cheaper than they can, they're not exactly being screwed over. Would you rather milk prices were kept artificially high - ripping off the consumer to benefit a few farmers who are unable to adapt to changing markets? I know I wouldn't, and it would certainly set a dangerous precedent for other industries to follow.
THEFATBASTARD Posted 26 July 2012 Author Posted 26 July 2012 It is hard to kettle a blockade, and despite the governments' (plural not aiming this solely at the current lot) best efforts at reducing our right to protest, we are still legally entitled to do so. Also this is not directly related to any decision made by the government, but more about the way the big supermarkets have driven down the price they pay for milk, whilst increasing the price they sell it for. It has got to the point now where farmers are making a loss on the milk, but can't afford not to accept these low prices because otherwise they will end up with a bigger loss on their hands. Once again greed and big business are screwing people over to make more profit. I'm with the farmers. so they are a special case...they are preventing others going about their lawful business ...with no sanction...
glenny_fox Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 I'm with the farmers on this one. They have to produce the milk to survive in the trade yet they are not even covering the costs when they sell it on. The fact that supermarkets are getting a massive mark up on it just screams corporate greed. Everyone is against people in the far east working their arses off for pittance, so why should our own farmers not have the same right to a fair share?
MooseBreath Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 Everyone is against people in the far east working their arses off for pittance, so why should our own farmers not have the same right to a fair share? They do have the right to choose not to run a business which doesn't make them any money. They haven't really got a leg to stand on. They are basically suppliers of an inferior service looking for something that allows them to carry on being inferior but still make good money. It's like manufacturers of horse drawn carts protesting because people prefer buying cars. They have nothing going for them in this argument at all.
purpleronnie Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 They do have the right to choose not to run a business which doesn't make them any money. They haven't really got a leg to stand on. They are basically suppliers of an inferior service looking for something that allows them to carry on being inferior but still make good money. It's like manufacturers of horse drawn carts protesting because people prefer buying cars. They have nothing going for them in this argument at all. I may sound like an idiot, but surely someone has to farm the animals to produce the milk?
Finnegan Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 They do have the right to choose not to run a business which doesn't make them any money. They haven't really got a leg to stand on. They are basically suppliers of an inferior service looking for something that allows them to carry on being inferior but still make good money. It's like manufacturers of horse drawn carts protesting because people prefer buying cars. They have nothing going for them in this argument at all. What the **** are you babbling about? What have horses and carts got to do with it? For that analogy to be even close to making sense milk would have to be an obsolete commodity. Given my office alone goes through about five pints a day I'm pretty sure there's a bit more demand for udder juice than cart horses.
glenny_fox Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 They do have the right to choose not to run a business which doesn't make them any money. They haven't really got a leg to stand on. They are basically suppliers of an inferior service looking for something that allows them to carry on being inferior but still make good money. It's like manufacturers of horse drawn carts protesting because people prefer buying cars. They have nothing going for them in this argument at all. See many horse drawn carts in tesco do ya? The fact that milk is an indemand drink (unless the whole of the UK drinks tea and coffee black and has dry cerial) then the price the farmers recieve for supplying milk should be at least enough to cover costs. Its shocking that supermarkets aren't paying a fair share to our farmers, especially when they all run campaigns specifying the words 'fair trade'... but I guess that excludes the UK?
Captain... Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 If somebody else can produce the milk cheaper than they can, they're not exactly being screwed over. Would you rather milk prices were kept artificially high - ripping off the consumer to benefit a few farmers who are unable to adapt to changing markets? I know I wouldn't, and it would certainly set a dangerous precedent for other industries to follow. erm... who is producing the milk cheaper? You really have failed to grasp the issue haven't you, this is not market forces, supply and demand, that is driving the price of milk down (well the price the supermarkets pay for it, despite selling it for more and taking greater profit). The problem is that farmers have got caught up in unfair contracts, and have not been able to increase the price of milk as their costs have increased due to the increase in grain prices. The problem is the chain of supply with some of the big supermarkets at the top dictating unfair prices they pay to the processors who are then unable to pay the farmers a fair rate. I am not quite sure how or why the farmers and processors got caught up in such a contract, and it was most likely greed combined with a lack of foresight, but right now they are getting shafted and can't do much about it because the alternative is not selling the milk which will then go to waste very quickly. If anyone who understands the issue wants to support the farmers, they are calling on boycotting Asda and Morrisons as being the main supermarket culprits, and Dairy Crest and Arla as milk producers.
THEFATBASTARD Posted 26 July 2012 Author Posted 26 July 2012 farmers get yours and my money in massive government subsidies..to produce a product that can be produced cheaper elsewhere....not many labour voters in the rural class though....it seems they are allowed to break the law and we can pay for the priviledge... seems to be ok though..
Captain... Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 farmers get yours and my money in massive government subsidies..to produce a product that can be produced cheaper elsewhere....not many labour voters in the rural class though....it seems they are allowed to break the law and we can pay for the priviledge... sems to be ok though.. Where? Who is producing this cheaper milk? You are right the blockades are illegal and not the right to protest. The subsidies are to keep costs down for us, so yes they are using government money to subsidise farming (although I think the subsidies are more for the meat producers than dairy, but I could be wrong) so that we can afford to eat meat and drink milk, so any cost on our part is evened out in savings, unless you are a Vegan, in which case tough luck.
davieG Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 erm... who is producing the milk cheaper? You really have failed to grasp the issue haven't you, this is not market forces, supply and demand, that is driving the price of milk down (well the price the supermarkets pay for it, despite selling it for more and taking greater profit). The problem is that farmers have got caught up in unfair contracts, and have not been able to increase the price of milk as their costs have increased due to the increase in grain prices. The problem is the chain of supply with some of the big supermarkets at the top dictating unfair prices they pay to the processors who are then unable to pay the farmers a fair rate. I am not quite sure how or why the farmers and processors got caught up in such a contract, and it was most likely greed combined with a lack of foresight, but right now they are getting shafted and can't do much about it because the alternative is not selling the milk which will then go to waste very quickly. If anyone who understands the issue wants to support the farmers, they are calling on boycotting Asda and Morrisons as being the main supermarket culprits, and Dairy Crest and Arla as milk producers. Morrisons along with the Coop have increased their payments - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18936539
Captain... Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 Morrisons along with the Coop have increased their payments - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18936539 Boycott them anyway for those awful adverts with Alan Hansen.
MooseBreath Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 erm... who is producing the milk cheaper? You really have failed to grasp the issue haven't you, this is not market forces, supply and demand, that is driving the price of milk down (well the price the supermarkets pay for it, despite selling it for more and taking greater profit). The problem is that farmers have got caught up in unfair contracts, and have not been able to increase the price of milk as their costs have increased due to the increase in grain prices. The problem is the chain of supply with some of the big supermarkets at the top dictating unfair prices they pay to the processors who are then unable to pay the farmers a fair rate. I am not quite sure how or why the farmers and processors got caught up in such a contract, and it was most likely greed combined with a lack of foresight, but right now they are getting shafted and can't do much about it because the alternative is not selling the milk which will then go to waste very quickly. You're right, having read a couple of articles, it does seem that the farmers have made an abysmal error in judgement by signing one year contracts allowing the price at which they sell to be dictated by others. Are we going to forgive that mistake and pay to help them out of it? Why should we? What's the difference between this and when bankers make mistakes? Should we bail them out to? Also, the price of cream.
THEFATBASTARD Posted 26 July 2012 Author Posted 26 July 2012 milk can be bought on world markets like any other commodity...the reason why the price is down is because of the collapse in world cream prices which has affected the price of milk.. same as with coal...steel....etc..etc.. thats how capitalism works..
Captain... Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 You're right, having read a couple of articles, it does seem that the farmers have made an abysmal error in judgement by signing one year contracts allowing the price at which they sell to be dictated by others. Are we going to forgive that mistake and pay to help them out of it? Why should we? What's the difference between this and when bankers make mistakes? Should we bail them out to? Also, the price of cream. Nobody is talking of bailing them out, they are talking about making sure they get a fair price for their milk, from certain supermarkets who are exploiting these contracts for their own gain.
MooseBreath Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 I'll be paying more for milk, not my fault they signed the contracts
Captain... Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 milk can be bought on world markets like any other commodity...the reason why the price is down is because of the collapse in world cream prices which has affected the price of milk.. same as with coal...steel....etc..etc.. thats how capitalism works.. One difference is that milk production is a long term investment that cannot be stopped or stored, and lets not turn this into a capitalism thread we've had enough of them. So what do you propose we just let milk farmers go out of business, creating a fresh milk shortage in the UK, driving up the price even more, and allowing even more uk money to leave to foreign dairy farms which would need to be UHT crap to stop it from spoiling? Or insist that supermarkets pay a fair price for milk. They are not asking for anything unreasonable, but they are obviously tied into contracts that are allowing them to be screwed over, they are protesting in what may be an illegal way and asking for Government intervention, because they are desperate and other option is going out of business.
Bob Weasel Fox Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 i think the farmers are milking the situation for all its worth . . . . . . . . . . but on a serious note i support the farmers on this one, very hard working bunch IMO and they deserve a better reward for their efforts
Jon the Hat Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 I do feel for them, procurement of milk has become too concentrated and market forces are not working. Good outcome.
Captain... Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 I'll be paying more for milk, not my fault they signed the contracts Depends where you shop, supermarkets will still be free to discount milk but it will be out of their own pocket and not that of the farmers, again this is the problem, supermarkets are discounting milk to attract people to their stores, but are still making the same profit on the milk and making the farmers pay for their discount. I really don't see how you can argue that farmers should be paid less for their milk than it costs to produce. You may argue their methods of protest are illegal, but what they are asking for is not unreasonable.
Smudge Posted 26 July 2012 Posted 26 July 2012 milk can be bought on world markets like any other commodity...the reason why the price is down is because of the collapse in world cream prices which has affected the price of milk.. same as with coal...steel....etc..etc.. thats how capitalism works.. I'm not saying you're wrong but I can't figure out how milk is a world commodity. I don't see any milk tankers sailing in and out of the US port of Norfolk. I understand the UK now imports much of it's of it's milk from Holland, Belgium and Ireland so has to be local and truck hauled. You were asking who shrunk the economy in another thread, I'd suggest that the consumer decision to support supermarkets in lieu of local business is a root cause. It costs £1.05 to buy a litre from Kirby & West and 89p from Sainsbury's. That's 16p extra a litre for delivered fresh milk. If another 20,000 customers just bought two litres a week, the Leicester economy would improve by £2.184 million a year. Who know's they might consider reducing prices and everyone wins. Government can't mandate that, it has to be a grass roots movement that asks people to see beyond the convenience of picking up milk that has possibly been imported from abroad.
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