Dross in our squad?

[Babylon]

Until yesterday I was in full agreement.

Looked a bit more like 'fine tuning' needed for me though to be honest.

We weren't great Col, but we were far from a shambles. We aren't always going to have everything go our way, other teams will be on top of us whether it's for 5 minutes, 45 minutes or a full game at some point during the season. Even the commentators said barring two concentration lapses the game was actually quite even and open first half, and I agree.

We obviously have two problems of not being able to keep other teams out when they are on top, and unable to score when we are on top. Two massive problems obviously, but I do think we are a few tweaks away from getting it right. I thought the introduction of Knockaert and him drifting inside was a big step in the right direction for our second problem, because we looked like we could create, and not just hopeful balls into the box or long shots.

Defensively I think MD made a good point about us trying to defend from the front but not doing it correctly, the strikers left too big a whole between the attack and midfield and we are easy to bypass. I think he was saying drop the strikers back a bit, meaning the midfield can drop back slightly and become a bit more compact.

[Bob Weasel Fox]

We weren't great Col, but we were far from a shambles. We aren't always going to have everything go our way, other teams will be on top of us whether it's for 5 minutes, 45 minutes or a full game at some point during the season. Even the commentators said barring two concentration lapses the game was actually quite even and open first half, and I agree.

We obviously have two problems of not being able to keep other teams out when they are on top, and unable to score when we are on top. Two massive problems obviously, but I do think we are a few tweaks away from getting it right. I thought the introduction of Knockaert and him drifting inside was a big step in the right direction for our second problem, because we looked like we could create, and not just hopeful balls into the box or long shots.

Defensively I think MD made a good point about us trying to defend from the front but not doing it correctly, the strikers left too big a whole between the attack and midfield and we are easy to bypass. I think he was saying drop the strikers back a bit, meaning the midfield can drop back slightly and become a bit more compact.

I hope your right babbs

[marbelladave]

We weren't great Col, but we were far from a shambles. We aren't always going to have everything go our way, other teams will be on top of us whether it's for 5 minutes, 45 minutes or a full game at some point during the season. Even the commentators said barring two concentration lapses the game was actually quite even and open first half, and I agree.

We obviously have two problems of not being able to keep other teams out when they are on top, and unable to score when we are on top. Two massive problems obviously, but I do think we are a few tweaks away from getting it right. I thought the introduction of Knockaert and him drifting inside was a big step in the right direction for our second problem, because we looked like we could create, and not just hopeful balls into the box or long shots.

Defensively I think MD made a good point about us trying to defend from the front but not doing it correctly, the strikers left too big a whole between the attack and midfield and we are easy to bypass. I think he was saying drop the strikers back a bit, meaning the midfield can drop back slightly and become a bit more compact.

Overall I thought saturday was pretty disappointing, our players did well enough individually though both Konchesky and Moore had their moments but the team simply failed to function as a unit.

I think NFP is trying to make adjustments, getting the central midfielders to support the strikers for example but that just left us more open defensively and Drinkwaters attempts at shooting were a tad embarrassing.

We remain too strung out, the front 2 play well forward, the back 4 does not push up enough so the central mids either cannot support the front men (if the 'sit') and are to far forward to cover the defence if the get forward.

Similarly, our front 2 might press the back 4 but if the midfield tries to press they can be bypassed easily and our pack 4 exposed.

Everything stems from this, we are always too stretched to support each each other properly and the opposition picks us apart man by man.

Regarding Knockeart the big difference he made was his flexibility and unpredictability, nominally on the right, he played all across the line and disrupted the left flank of Wolves defence so much that De Laet was getting past him on the outside and causing even more trouble.

Contrast this with Marshall, who stays wide and as a consequence has much less effect on the game, he needs to be as flexible as Knockeart and get inside to create and into the box to support the striker.

[Captain...]

You're right about his season long loan - I thought it was less.

He's scored 19 goals in his career of 103 senior appearances. Does that sound like a decent striker to you??

He did score 12 of them in his 28 games on loan for us ....

Leaving just 7 goals in the other75 games!!!!

So he hit some form in one loan spell and apart from that has had 2-3 season's worth of games scoring in less than one in ten of them.

You carry on justifying the lad, it's endearing that you can be so blindly loyal.

Another muppet who twists stats to prove their point

Waghorn's stats: http://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=48366

So here you can see his 7 other goals came from 5 goals in 12 starts for Sousa, Sven and NP since signing for us, 1 goal in 5 starts for Hull, and 1 goal on loan at Charlton, so 7 in 23 starts not 7 in 75. since he signed for us ignoring his loan, it is 5 in 12 starts 23 appearances off the bench, not great, but not as bad as you make out.

His record for us of 17 goals in 39 starts is pretty decent, and compares well with Beckford, 9 in 35 or 15 in 39 (if you include cup games) Vardy, 1 in 5, and Nugent 15 in 40.

The rest of his 100 appearances have been off the bench, and a lot of that was during his loan season here. So his record for us in the league is 17 from 39 starts and 39 appearances off the bench.

Seriously, why do people look so hard to slag off our players, they are our players so just support them.

[Bob Weasel Fox]

i would personally play Waggy ahead of JB

[Fox42]

i would personally play Waggy ahead of JB

I would personally label JB as an emergency player.

[Fox1651]

We have a reasonable squad, not good enough to get promoted though in my opinion

[5waller5]

Another muppet who twists stats to prove their point

Waghorn's stats: http://www.soccerbas...player_id=48366

So here you can see his 7 other goals came from 5 goals in 12 starts for Sousa, Sven and NP since signing for us, 1 goal in 5 starts for Hull, and 1 goal on loan at Charlton, so 7 in 23 starts not 7 in 75. since he signed for us ignoring his loan, it is 5 in 12 starts 23 appearances off the bench, not great, but not as bad as you make out.

His record for us of 17 goals in 39 starts is pretty decent, and compares well with Beckford, 9 in 35 or 15 in 39 (if you include cup games) Vardy, 1 in 5, and Nugent 15 in 40.

The rest of his 100 appearances have been off the bench, and a lot of that was during his loan season here. So his record for us in the league is 17 from 39 starts and 39 appearances off the bench.

Seriously, why do people look so hard to slag off our players, they are our players so just support them.

Excellent - someone that resorts to insults rather than make their point. I wonder why we have a society of such aggressive people?? Were you not breast fed for long enough??

[5waller5]

Another muppet who twists stats to prove their point

Waghorn's stats: http://www.soccerbas...player_id=48366

So here you can see his 7 other goals came from 5 goals in 12 starts for Sousa, Sven and NP since signing for us, 1 goal in 5 starts for Hull, and 1 goal on loan at Charlton, so 7 in 23 starts not 7 in 75. since he signed for us ignoring his loan, it is 5 in 12 starts 23 appearances off the bench, not great, but not as bad as you make out.

His record for us of 17 goals in 39 starts is pretty decent, and compares well with Beckford, 9 in 35 or 15 in 39 (if you include cup games) Vardy, 1 in 5, and Nugent 15 in 40.

The rest of his 100 appearances have been off the bench, and a lot of that was during his loan season here. So his record for us in the league is 17 from 39 starts and 39 appearances off the bench.

Seriously, why do people look so hard to slag off our players, they are our players so just support them.

Your working hard to justify that he's a decent player and that's your perogative. His entire league career according to your stats site (which is different to the one i used - i wasn't twisting stats merely stating them) is .19 goals per game.

A goal in every 5-6 games. So if he plays 40 league games this season as a striker we should be able to expect a collosal 8 goals.

You are so right and I am disappearing with my tail between my legs..... It turns out that Waghorn is pure quality.

[5waller5]

Another muppet who twists stats to prove their point

Waghorn's stats: http://www.soccerbas...player_id=48366

So here you can see his 7 other goals came from 5 goals in 12 starts for Sousa, Sven and NP since signing for us, 1 goal in 5 starts for Hull, and 1 goal on loan at Charlton, so 7 in 23 starts not 7 in 75. since he signed for us ignoring his loan, it is 5 in 12 starts 23 appearances off the bench, not great, but not as bad as you make out.

His record for us of 17 goals in 39 starts is pretty decent, and compares well with Beckford, 9 in 35 or 15 in 39 (if you include cup games) Vardy, 1 in 5, and Nugent 15 in 40.

The rest of his 100 appearances have been off the bench, and a lot of that was during his loan season here. So his record for us in the league is 17 from 39 starts and 39 appearances off the bench.

Seriously, why do people look so hard to slag off our players, they are our players so just support them.

And one final point ..... what is the point of this forum if it's not to discuss matters about LCFC, like the players we rate??

Supporting him on a match day is one thing - and I've never booed a player in a blue shirt, ever ..... but not being able to discuss the merits of a player on a forum because some "muppet" thinks support means you can't discuss anything that they disagree with, would make a very dull forum.

[Bob Weasel Fox]

I would personally label JB as an emergency player.

i wish he was that good . . . . . .

[Mark_w]

Excellent - someone that resorts to insults rather than make their point. I wonder why we have a society of such aggressive people?? Were you not breast fed for long enough??

Absolutely superb, he insults you in two lines, then makes a fantastic point about Waghorn and you choose to only see the insult. Do you then reply by making an incredible point that shows without a shadow of a doubt that Waghorn is rubbish...? No, you insult him back.

Oh wait there are a couple of after thought posts which suggest that if Waghorn got a tally pretty much the same as Beckford's over the season (That's Beckford who you think is incredible) then he'd have done awfully.

[5waller5]

Absolutely superb, he insults you in two lines, then makes a fantastic point about Waghorn and you choose to only see the insult. Do you then reply by making an incredible point that shows without a shadow of a doubt that Waghorn is rubbish...? No, you insult him back.

Oh wait there are a couple of after thought posts which suggest that if Waghorn got a tally pretty much the same as Beckford's over the season (That's Beckford who you think is incredible) then he'd have done awfully.

Not after thought posts .... I just posted one point at a time. I asked him why he was so aggressive not call him a muppet for having a different opinion to mine.

Waghorn's figures remain - one goal in over 5 games across his whole career. I'm not sure what Beckford's are as I haven't checked. I don't think JB is "incredible" i do think he's got the potential to be as good as we can hope for right now. I don't think Waghorn has.

[5waller5]

Absolutely superb, he insults you in two lines, then makes a fantastic point about Waghorn and you choose to only see the insult. Do you then reply by making an incredible point that shows without a shadow of a doubt that Waghorn is rubbish...? No, you insult him back.

Oh wait there are a couple of after thought posts which suggest that if Waghorn got a tally pretty much the same as Beckford's over the season (That's Beckford who you think is incredible) then he'd have done awfully.

And by the way, Beckford scored DOUBLE that last season from less than 40 starts. So I don't follow your point.

[5waller5]

Absolutely superb, he insults you in two lines, then makes a fantastic point about Waghorn and you choose to only see the insult. Do you then reply by making an incredible point that shows without a shadow of a doubt that Waghorn is rubbish...? No, you insult him back.

Oh wait there are a couple of after thought posts which suggest that if Waghorn got a tally pretty much the same as Beckford's over the season (That's Beckford who you think is incredible) then he'd have done awfully.

And just to clear up JB's figures for you and compare them to Waghorn so you really can see the difference.

Career to date ....

Waghorn 19 goals in 103 appearances.

0.19 goals per game

Beckford 119 goals in 259 games.

.46 goals per game.

Just to make it really easy for you ......

using that average and applying it to a typical 40 game season, we could expect a return of .......

Waghorn 8 goals

Beckford 19 goals.

[Mark_w]

And by the way, Beckford scored DOUBLE that last season from less than 40 starts. So I don't follow your point.

A goal in every 5-6 games. So if he plays 40 league games this season as a striker we should be able to expect a collosal 8 goals.

Right so Cup goals count for Beckford but not for Waghorn?

[Mark_w]

Beckford 119 goals in 259 games.

.46 goals per game.

coughleagueonecough

[5waller5]

Right so Cup goals count for Beckford but not for Waghorn?

I've counted them .... he hasn't scored any!!!!

[5waller5]

coughleagueonecough

And premier league too .... I've quoted the whole of both of their careers .... You can't get fairer stats than that.

[Mark_w]

I've counted them .... he hasn't scored any!!!!

No you were talking only about League games with Waghorn a minute ago when you worked out his average. So surely you should only be talking about Beckford's tally in the league. You can't just say 'Beckford is going to score x amount more goals than Waghorn in the cup this year' because you don't know our opposition. If you're going to work out an average number of goals for Waggy over this season, then say that 8 league goals would be awful, you can't justify Beckford's nine by including cup goals.

And premier league too .... I've quoted the whole of both of their careers .... You can't get fairer stats than that.

Yes you can. I think it's safe to say that Waghorn's career tally would be better if he spent three years with a team 'playing around him' in the third tier.

[Captain...]

And one final point ..... what is the point of this forum if it's not to discuss matters about LCFC, like the players we rate??

Supporting him on a match day is one thing - and I've never booed a player in a blue shirt, ever ..... but not being able to discuss the merits of a player on a forum because some "muppet" thinks support means you can't discuss anything that they disagree with, would make a very dull forum.

Seriously, you think muppet is an insult and name throwing, I use it with affection.

Basically you got your stats wrong to slag off one of our players, you claimed he had scored 7 in 75, THAT WAS WRONG, he hasn't even started 75 games, so how you can try and justify that is beyond me.

You want opinions post opinions, don't post false statistics to slag off a player of the club you are supposed to support, and not expect to be called up on it.

0.19 goals a game is based on 100+ games which is wrong, he has not played 100+ games he has played 50 odd with another 50 sub appearances, they are not games, I was looking for a stats site that included minutes on the pitch and goals per minute, but couldn't find one, as that is the only real way to judge someone's strike rate.

I am not defending Waghorn, nor even saying his stats are great.

I am just sick of seeing "fans" posting lies about the players they are supposed to support, and it is always the same, those that do slag off players always end up showing themselves to be clueless.

You don't want to be called a muppet, don't post made up stats.

[5waller5]

No you were talking only about League games with Waghorn a minute ago when you worked out his average. So surely you should only be talking about Beckford's tally in the league. You can't just say 'Beckford is going to score x amount more goals than Waghorn in the cup this year' because you don't know our opposition. If you're going to work out an average number of goals for Waggy over this season, then say that 8 league goals would be awful, you can't justify Beckford's nine by including cup goals.

OK in one quote i did use the word league, well spotted. I've actually been quoting total senior appearances and total senior goals throughout though .... so please don't get silly about the difference between league and cup for the sake of making waghorn's vastly inferior scoring record seem marginally better. It isn't comparable however much tweaking you do around the edges .... and as my stats were called into question for being selective I have been entirely fair and taken ALL appearamces across their whole careers and every goal they have scored.

[Mark_w]

and as my stats were called into question for being selective I have been entirely fair and taken ALL appearamces across their whole careers and every goal they have scored.

But that's not fair because Beckford spent three years in League One. I'd be more interested in stats surrounding STARTS in the CHAMPIONSHIP if you can find them without making any tiny modifications.

[5waller5]

Seriously, you think muppet is an insult and name throwing, I use it with affection.

Basically you got your stats wrong to slag off one of our players, you claimed he had scored 7 in 75, THAT WAS WRONG, he hasn't even started 75 games, so how you can try and justify that is beyond me.

You want opinions post opinions, don't post false statistics to slag off a player of the club you are supposed to support, and not expect to be called up on it.

0.19 goals a game is based on 100+ games which is wrong, he has not played 100+ games he has played 50 odd with another 50 sub appearances, they are not games, I was looking for a stats site that included minutes on the pitch and goals per minute, but couldn't find one, as that is the only real way to judge someone's strike rate.

I am not defending Waghorn, nor even saying his stats are great.

I am just sick of seeing "fans" posting lies about the players they are supposed to support, and it is always the same, those that do slag off players always end up showing themselves to be clueless.

You don't want to be called a muppet, don't post made up stats.

I'm not deliberately misquoting stats - I'm using the ones straight from wikipedia for both players ..... Waghorn has an awful scoring record for a £3m striker and i fail to see how it's defensible especially by the same people criticising JB who was bought for a similar fee.

And none of us know their wages, so let's not compare things we don't know. The stats for both speak for themselves.

And thanks for calling me a muppet - i wasn't aware it was a term of endearment xx

[Captain...]

And just to clear up JB's figures for you and compare them to Waghorn so you really can see the difference.

Career to date ....

Waghorn 19 goals in 103 appearances.

0.19 goals per game

Beckford 119 goals in 259 games.

.46 goals per game.

Just to make it really easy for you ......

using that average and applying it to a typical 40 game season, we could expect a return of .......

Waghorn 8 goals

Beckford 19 goals.

Stop being a muppet and just support everyone who pulls on the shirt,

Can you honestly not see the difference between 19 goals in 50 starts and 46 subs appearances and 19 goals in 96 games?

Can you also not see the problem with comparing the career stats of a 28 year old, past his prime, who has spent most of his career in the third tier, with that of a 22 year old who has spent most of his career in the championship and has yet to reach his best?

Why are you so desperate to hate one of our players?