Dross in our squad?

[5waller5]

But that's not fair because Beckford spent three years in League One. I'd be more interested in stats surrounding STARTS in the CHAMPIONSHIP if you can find them without making any tiny modifications.

I can't .... I'm amazed at how poor stats sites are ..... it's actually 5 seasons in league one, two in the premiership. And i didn't realise that until i just checked your 3 seasons comment - easy to get stats wrong isn't it??

[5waller5]

Stop being a muppet and just support everyone who pulls on the shirt,

Can you honestly not see the difference between 19 goals in 50 starts and 46 subs appearances and 19 goals in 96 games?

Can you also not see the problem with comparing the career stats of a 28 year old, past his prime, who has spent most of his career in the third tier, with that of a 22 year old who has spent most of his career in the championship and has yet to reach his best?

Why are you so desperate to hate one of our players?

Because the thread is called "Dross in our squad"??

I have seen the error of my ways though and will blindly support waghorn in spite of me thinking he's not good enough.

[Mark_w]

I'm not deliberately misquoting stats - I'm using the ones straight from wikipedia for both players ..... Waghorn has an awful scoring record for a £3m striker and i fail to see how it's defensible especially by the same people criticising JB who was bought for a similar fee.

And none of us know their wages, so let's not compare things we don't know. The stats for both speak for themselves.

I think you'll find Waghorn and Beckford both joined for an undisclosed fee but you're happy to talk about that aren't you?

[Captain...]

I'm not deliberately misquoting stats - I'm using the ones straight from wikipedia for both players ..... Waghorn has an awful scoring record for a £3m striker and i fail to see how it's defensible especially by the same people criticising JB who was bought for a similar fee.

And none of us know their wages, so let's not compare things we don't know. The stats for both speak for themselves.

And thanks for calling me a muppet - i wasn't aware it was a term of endearment xx

It was actually my nickname for many years...

The main stat I was pulling you up on was 7 in 75, which is not true. If you exclude his loan spell here, not sure why you would, it is like excluding Beckford's cup goals, he has 7 in 23 starts and 30 sub appearances, which even if you add it all together is 7 in 53, and add another 6 cup appearances, 3(3) you still only get 59 (of which over half were sub appearances, mostly from memory last 15-20 minute jobs).

I also didn't bring wages into it, I am not saying he is better or worse than JB, I have defended JB on numerous occasions too when people mis-represent his stats.

I support all members of the playing squad, and anyone who represents my club, I still applaud all those that have ever played for us, with few exceptions, Dennis Wise etc.

I just don't get why people want to slag off and hate on their own players

[Captain...]

Because the thread is called "Dross in our squad"??

I have seen the error of my ways though and will blindly support waghorn in spite of me thinking he's not good enough.

Please do, it is called faith, not just in Waghorn, but in the management team as well that they know what they are doing, they see these players week in week out, they know their strengths and weaknesses, and Waghorn was so nearly the right call on Sunday, I didn't bother looking on here when he came on, as I knew what the reaction would be, and I so wanted him to slot that chance away, and he was inches away from doing so.

But yes blindly support every player it is our job as fans to do so, if we did that then we may have got more effort out of Gallagher for example and maybe a couple more screamers, instead we moan and groan and boo when he comes on. I just don't get it

[5waller5]

Please do, it is called faith, not just in Waghorn, but in the management team as well that they know what they are doing, they see these players week in week out, they know their strengths and weaknesses, and Waghorn was so nearly the right call on Sunday, I didn't bother looking on here when he came on, as I knew what the reaction would be, and I so wanted him to slot that chance away, and he was inches away from doing so.

But yes blindly support every player it is our job as fans to do so, if we did that then we may have got more effort out of Gallagher for example and maybe a couple more screamers, instead we moan and groan and boo when he comes on. I just don't get it

Noone is more supportive in the ground than me, and i can't stand booing of our own players .... but to not be able to talk about it on a forum entitled Dross In Our Squad is a little strong!!!

I was actually taking Waghorn's loan spell out of the stats as i was responding to a poster that was talking about how brilliant he is and that he hasn't had a chance to prove himself since his loan, I was quoting his whole career minus that loan to show that maybe he doesn't deserve that chance!!

[Mark_w]

Ok so I've done what I can in terms of searching for stats, this includes only Championship games.

Waghorn

48 Starts (Including some on the wing)

44 Substitute Appearances (Of any length)

Goals: 19

0.40 goals per start.

Beckford

35 Starts

8 Substitute Appearances

(+10 Games that I can't be sure of in terms of whether they were starts or substitute appearances so have not been classed as starts in my calculations.)

Goals: 9

0.26 goals per start.

There we go, that's a fair look at their Championship records. As you said earlier the stats speak for themselves, but I know you will not be ok with that now so slate away.

[Captain...]

Noone is more supportive in the ground than me, and i can't stand booing of our own players .... but to not be able to talk about it on a forum entitled Dross In Our Squad is a little strong!!!

I was actually taking Waghorn's loan spell out of the stats as i was responding to a poster that was talking about how brilliant he is and that he hasn't had a chance to prove himself since his loan, I was quoting his whole career minus that loan to show that maybe he doesn't deserve that chance!!

But you got it wrong.

I can't change your opinion on Waghorn, and you are entitled to it, but don't manipulate stats to back them up, his goals per starts ratio for us is pretty decent, and what I would look at when judging a player's strike rate.

Glad to hear you keep your negativity to these boards and not at the ground, but for me, I am still a kid when it comes to football, and when I was kid the players were largely crap, but that didn't matter they were my players and I loved them, even the likes of Ormondroyd and Coatsworth.

[5waller5]

But you got it wrong.

I can't change your opinion on Waghorn, and you are entitled to it, but don't manipulate stats to back them up, his goals per starts ratio for us is pretty decent, and what I would look at when judging a player's strike rate.

Glad to hear you keep your negativity to these boards and not at the ground, but for me, I am still a kid when it comes to football, and when I was kid the players were largely crap, but that didn't matter they were my players and I loved them, even the likes of Ormondroyd and Coatsworth.

We sound like we're from a similar era!!! I too loved Ormondroyd, Coatsworth, Fitzpatrick etc .... I even went to every reserves game in those days!!!!!!

By the way - Philpott used to play in centre mid for the reserves and should have absolutely played there for the first team - he was brilliant!!!

I just see this place as the equivalent to the pub before a game .... discuss what we think with fellow fans - we're never going to agree on everything - but I do think we should be able to not think a player or manager is fantastic without having our fan credentials being bought into question??

We sound like we're from a similar era!!! I too loved Ormondroyd, Coatsworth, Fitzpatrick etc .... I even went to every reserves game in those days!!!!!!

By the way - Philpott used to play in centre mid for the reserves and should have absolutely played there for the first team - he was brilliant!!!

I just see this place as the equivalent to the pub before a game .... discuss what we think with fellow fans - we're never going to agree on everything - but I do think we should be able to not think a player or manager is fantastic without having our fan credentials being bought into question??

Oh and if i got it wrong I'll hold my hands up - but they are the figures on his wikipedia page!

[5waller5]

Ok so I've done what I can in terms of searching for stats, this includes only Championship games.

Waghorn

48 Starts (Including some on the wing)

44 Substitute Appearances (Of any length)

Goals: 19

0.40 goals per start.

Beckford

35 Starts

8 Substitute Appearances

(+10 Games that I can't be sure of in terms of whether they were starts or substitute appearances so have not been classed as starts in my calculations.)

Goals: 9

0.26 goals per start.

There we go, that's a fair look at their Championship records. As you said earlier the stats speak for themselves, but I know you will not be ok with that now so slate away.

Just shows your original point really!!! If you want stats to prove a point you can always do it!!! I wasn't actually seeking out stats to prove any point that i feel strongly about - i just don't rate Waghorn highly, the stats you've managed to get are interesting - but my only criticism is that they are quoting one players worst period of form and another's best!!

[Captain...]

We sound like we're from a similar era!!! I too loved Ormondroyd, Coatsworth, Fitzpatrick etc .... I even went to every reserves game in those days!!!!!!

By the way - Philpott used to play in centre mid for the reserves and should have absolutely played there for the first team - he was brilliant!!!

I just see this place as the equivalent to the pub before a game .... discuss what we think with fellow fans - we're never going to agree on everything - but I do think we should be able to not think a player or manager is fantastic without having our fan credentials being bought into question??

Oh and if i got it wrong I'll hold my hands up - but they are the figures on his wikipedia page!

You got it wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyn_Waghorn

According to wiki, which counts all sub appearances the same as starts, excluding the loan:

7 in 62, (of which over half were subs appearances, and 18 were for shite clubs like Sunderland, Hull and Charlton. )

[Mark_w]

Just shows your original point really!!! If you want stats to prove a point you can always do it!!! I wasn't actually seeking out stats to prove any point that i feel strongly about - i just don't rate Waghorn highly, the stats you've managed to get are interesting - but my only criticism is that they are quoting one players worst period of form and another's best!!

They are quoting their entire records in the Championship. No 'runs of form'.

Waghorn has never played in League One and made about 2 substitute appearances in the Premier League so including those records would be unfair. This is the fairest method in that it takes the performances of the two players in the same league, and the division we are currently trying to get out of. If you're debating who has a better record at this level then those are the stats you want I'm afraid.

[5waller5]

You got it wrong: http://en.wikipedia..../Martyn_Waghorn

According to wiki, which counts all sub appearances the same as starts, excluding the loan:

7 in 62, (of which over half were subs appearances, and 18 were for shite clubs like Sunderland, Hull and Charlton. )

Yeah you're right!! Not sure where my maths got 75 from and not 62!!!!! That was a genuine error not a manipulation!!!

[Captain...]

Ok so I've done what I can in terms of searching for stats, this includes only Championship games.

Waghorn

48 Starts (Including some on the wing)

44 Substitute Appearances (Of any length)

Goals: 19

0.40 goals per start.

Beckford

35 Starts

8 Substitute Appearances

(+10 Games that I can't be sure of in terms of whether they were starts or substitute appearances so have not been classed as starts in my calculations.)

Goals: 9

0.26 goals per start.

There we go, that's a fair look at their Championship records. As you said earlier the stats speak for themselves, but I know you will not be ok with that now so slate away.

Unfortunately it just shows how poor Beckford has been for us as much as anything, but +1 for effort.

[5waller5]

They are quoting their entire records in the Championship. No 'runs of form'.

Waghorn has never played in League One and made about 2 substitute appearances in the Premier League so including those records would be unfair. This is the fairest method in that it takes the performances of the two players in the same league, and the division we are currently trying to get out of. If you're debating who has a better record at this level then those are the stats you want I'm afraid.

No, I agree they are relevant stats .... But JB would I'm sure point to last season as his most disappointing in terms of goal scoring form.

[Mark_w]

Unfortunately it just shows how poor Beckford has been for us as much as anything, but +1 for effort.

When you take into account wages/age/potential years we can get out of him, it's just depressing isn't it.

Yet Waghorn's the scapegoat.

[Mark]

You could always check out FoxesTalk stats?!

Waghorn

Beckford

[5waller5]

When you take into account wages/age/potential years we can get out of him, it's just depressing isn't it.

Yet Waghorn's the scapegoat.

Neither of them have been good enough. Simple.

For me I'd play JB ahead of Waghorn because he seems to have more natural ability and seems to be more of a threat - often in a ten minute cameo he'll create a couple of chances - I just don't see that happening with Waghorn.

[Mark_w]

No, I agree they are relevant stats .... But JB would I'm sure point to last season as his most disappointing in terms of goal scoring form.

You're probably right. But he's not exactly young, if he's going to prove he can do it in the Championship he's going to have to start soon. Really, really, soon. Here's hoping he does, but it doesn't sit right when the people who talk of Beckford being our best striker feel it's ok to crucify Waghorn.

[5waller5]

You could always check out FoxesTalk stats?!

Waghorn

Beckford

Good idea!!!!

[marty78]

The truth is they have both been disappointing signings to date but both are still at the club and both could still get chances to make a name for themselves at City and hopefully one or both can do the business eventually otherwise both will be remembered as failures. As City players I wish them both the best of luck of playing their way into form.

[Mark_w]

You could always check out FoxesTalk stats?!

Waghorn

Beckford

Am I right in saying these only include Leicester games?

[5waller5]

I do actually enjoy being made to justify an opinion as it makes you really think .... And I've just been thinking about why i don't rate waggy....

the truth is that I loved him when he first came and was one of those clamouring to sign him up .... so why the change of heart???

I think it's that as a young lad running around like a headless chicken and putting a foot in as a striker is endearing. Lots of fan-like enthusiasm and chasing..... But then I'd like to see a player mature and for his quality to start shining, and for me MW isn't progressing there .... and the running around like a fan can only get you so far.

JB is the total opposite - and that's why i think there's more to come with him -he's naturally a good footballer, nice touch, good feet etc .... a run of form and he'll fly (hopefully!).

[Mark_w]

I do actually enjoy being made to justify an opinion as it makes you really think .... And I've just been thinking about why i don't rate waggy....

the truth is that I loved him when he first came and was one of those clamouring to sign him up .... so why the change of heart???

I think it's that as a young lad running around like a headless chicken and putting a foot in as a striker is endearing. Lots of fan-like enthusiasm and chasing..... But then I'd like to see a player mature and for his quality to start shining, and for me MW isn't progressing there .... and the running around like a fan can only get you so far.

JB is the total opposite - and that's why i think there's more to come with him -he's naturally a good footballer, nice touch, good feet etc .... a run of form and he'll fly (hopefully!).

See I find this interesting, personally I just can't see that quality in Beckford, his touch really isn't all that good, to me he doesn't look like a natural finisher, and he's 6 years older than Martyn Waghorn. For me Beckford is, if at all, only marginally better than Waghorn, and even that's pushing it given their records at this level. As for your point about Waghorn's progression I'd still argue that being played out of position, mainly beind used as an impact sub and his injury spell last year have denied him the oppertunity to progress so far.

But you look at the age of the two, the reported wages (You were happy to talk about transfer fees and no one officially knows them), the fact that one has never scored 10 goals above League One level despite being in the latter stages of his career and for me there's no contest in terms of which I'd rather keep. We've got potentially 8 or so years to get out of Waghorn, whilst only another 2 or 3 to come from Beckford and Waghorn's record in the Championship is better. Not to mention the fact that he is quite clearly a very positive influence on the dressing room (although to be fair to him Beckford seems to be as well.)

I hope Beckford comes good, I really do, but I honestly find it frustrating when people claim that he's going to rip the division apart or that he's our best striker, or that he's capable of 20 goals in this division. Because so far in his career he's done nothing to prove he can, and if he can't then you've just put an unreasonable amount of pressure on the guy to do that.

I still think that the likes of Kingfox are being incredibly unfair to Waghorn so of course I'm going to stick up for him, but at the same time it is clear to me that Beckford isn't a bad player. But is one volumes better than the other like most on here would have you believe? No, no they aren't.

[Captain...]

I do actually enjoy being made to justify an opinion as it makes you really think .... And I've just been thinking about why i don't rate waggy....

the truth is that I loved him when he first came and was one of those clamouring to sign him up .... so why the change of heart???

I think it's that as a young lad running around like a headless chicken and putting a foot in as a striker is endearing. Lots of fan-like enthusiasm and chasing..... But then I'd like to see a player mature and for his quality to start shining, and for me MW isn't progressing there .... and the running around like a fan can only get you so far.

JB is the total opposite - and that's why i think there's more to come with him -he's naturally a good footballer, nice touch, good feet etc .... a run of form and he'll fly (hopefully!).

Nice touch for JB? His touch is shocking I remember the first time I saw him play, I couldn't believe how bad his first touch was, it has improved, but his first touch is not his strong point, I would still start him tomorrow, but not for hit touch.

The main reason Waghorn hasn't progressed is because he hasn't had a run in the side since Sousa left.