Older aged away support than most?

[Dan]

You come across, at least to me, as so much more sensible and diplomatic than Stu.

Great post again.

The thing is, I can see exactly what Stu is getting at as bad as that sounds, but it's full of unfair generalisations and it's elitism that can only have a negative effect.

Voll Blau nailed it for me.

Got a lot of time for posts like this.

Need to go on Xbox to you at some point about what I said before.

[Dan]

Can't agree with this more. The 'loyal supporters' chant really is a pain in the arse.

I wonder which members of this very forum have chanted this? Both home and away?

Any? I wonder.....

I have in the past but don't know why, elitist chant and generally means "I'll pay anything".

[marbelladave]

No, it's a bit of both. Maybe we're left with all these modern supporters because modern football is so bittering to the traditional supporter.

You've often mentioned how chanting is irrelevant to the atmosphere but I don't think that's a view held by most. Chanting and unified noise is what makes it enjoyable for me.

When there were still open terraces at Filbert St the most important part of the atmosphere came from the 'unified noise' of thousands of fans congregating on the terraces half an hour or more before kickoff. The chatter and the buzz of expectation was the atmosphere, and this built up well before the teams appeared. The noise was so great, so constant that the chants and songs from the Kop were barely audible most of the time, contrast this with the 'modern way' fans emerge from the concourses and bars just a few minutes before kick off expecting instant atmosphere, doesn't work.

Of course the numbers make a huge difference too, back in the day a big game could easily attract 35,000+ and I have been in crowds of well over 40,000 on a number of occasions.

The atmosphere was absolutely spine tingling and the chanting and singing had nothing to do with it.

[Kitchandro]

When there were still open terraces at Filbert St the most important part of the atmosphere came from the 'unified noise' of thousands of fans congregating on the terraces half an hour or more before kickoff. The chatter and the buzz of expectation was the atmosphere, and this built up well before the teams appeared. The noise was so great, so constant that the chants and songs from the Kop were barely audible most of the time, contrast this with the 'modern way' fans emerge from the concourses and bars just a few minutes before kick off expecting instant atmosphere, doesn't work.

Of course the numbers make a huge difference too, back in the day a big game could easily attract 35,000+ and I have been in crowds of well over 40,000 on a number of occasions.

The atmosphere was absolutely spine tingling and the chanting and singing had nothing to do with it.

To me though, that's just a lot of people talking, that's not real atmosphere. Loads of people singing the same song in unison is a football atmosphere, or at the very least loads of people swearing at the ref The 70s and 80s are generally regarded as the best era for atmosphere and people were chanting stuff then. I think most people would like things to be like they were then, without the hooliganism and lack of safety (ie fences).

Regardless, people do seem less excited at the football these days, there's definitely less passion as you allude to, and I don't think the type of atmosphere you experienced will be around again, simply because no amount of organising, standing areas, etc can force people to be excited. However, the loud chanting and mental celebrations can be achieved.

You say concourses are to blame and whilst I agree the atmosphere would be better if it builds up before kick off, concourses aren't a huge problem for grounds where there is a good atmosphere around Britain and Europe.

One thing you do keep saying which I agree with is that reserved seating makes a difference and in turn prevents people getting pitchside earlier to find a good place to stand, sit. The music blasting out doesn't help either.

The bottom line is though, even someone of my relatively young age has been to matches in the modern era with concourses, pre-match music, all seater stadiums with reserved seating and yet, some great atmospheres. Sadly these seem to be getting less and less frequent.

To me, the type and attitude of fans is the biggest thing. The football fan demographic has changed so much and is still doing so. The clubs and authorities have a lot to answer for in that respect, but the fans that do go to the football and supposedly want an atmosphere need to show it as well.

[marbelladave]

Kitch.....

As you say, it is about people being excited......

Again, in my youth football was not on TV 24/7 as it is now and getting to the game was a real event. The buzz as the crowd built up was far more than just 'people talking', the excitement in their voices made it much, much more than that.

I understand it is a very different era and that many factors contribute, but the simple fact is that football has been gentrified, it is no longer the mass working class spectacle it once was and in England at least, this has changed the matchday experience out of all proportion.

Something similar happened to me on Sunday, having recently moved home, we decided to try out one of our new local pubs for a drink and sunday lunch.

The pub was nicely fitted out, known for doing decent food and had a a great selection of real beer, imported draught lagers and decent wine......

It was also full of families with screaming kids running all over the place, could have been McDonalds......

We cancelled our food order, finished our drinks and left, just like modern football, modern pubs are shit too.

[Kitchandro]

Kitch.....

As you say, it is about people being excited......

Again, in my youth football was not on TV 24/7 as it is now and getting to the game was a real event. The buzz as the crowd built up was far more than just 'people talking', the excitement in their voices made it much, much more than that.

I understand it is a very different era and that many factors contribute, but the simple fact is that football has been gentrified, it is no longer the mass working class spectacle it once was and in England at least, this has changed the matchday experience out of all proportion.

Something similar happened to me on Sunday, having recently moved home, we decided to try out one of our new local pubs for a drink and sunday lunch.

The pub was nicely fitted out, known for doing decent food and had a a great selection of real beer, imported draught lagers and decent wine......

It was also full of families with screaming kids running all over the place, could have been McDonalds......

We cancelled our food order, finished our drinks and left, just like modern football, modern pubs are shit too.

Yes sadly times have changed massively. I think you're spot on about games being on TV all the while, that definitely would explain the lack of excitement these days, a football match is not a special thing that only happens once every week/every other week.

Still, it shouldn't be an excuse for the shocking atmosphere's we're getting these days. We've still got passionate fans who can create some decent noise, the question is, are they even at the ground? And if you're going with the intention of being miserable and negative (as a lot of fans around me have been in recent times, and I don't just mean old sarnie eaters ) I've got to ask why they bother.

[marbelladave]

Very fair comment Kitch.......

Given the realities of modern football, I think the only hope is to get the club involved. To 'officially' designate areas for fans who want to sing and shout, it needs to be all standing and preferably unreserved so that the fans can come together as they wish and really get involved as a group.

The German model is worth looking at, 'Ultra' style fans being encouraged in certain areas of the ground and they respond well by being extremely supportive of their side and although boisterous and noisy they are rarely violent, (some old style East German teams excepted). Pricing plays a big part too, the costs are far too high in England, pricing out many potential fans and numbers do make a big difference.

There are some fantastic 'Ultra' groups all over Europe but sadly there are some that embrace violence and racism and it is these groups who are most prominent in the media.

This gives the English authorities and clubs the excuse to to impose stringent compliance issues on the fans and by the use of reserved seating and (when they wish) heavy stewarding they break up the noisy or troublesome fans before anything can happen.

English clubs have worked hard to break up the mass working class support and it would take a massive change in attitude to change that around, not going to happen anytime soon.

As I said in my first post, it is all about compliance and control, the clubs have it and will be very reluctant to losen their grip. The appalling behaviour of some fans gives the clubs all the excuse they need to continue to neuter the matchday experience and turn the stadia into some sort of oversized, family, McDonalds.......

[indierich06]

Given the realities of modern football, I think the only hope is to get the club involved. To 'officially' designate areas for fans who want to sing and shout, it needs to be all standing and preferably unreserved so that the fans can come together as they wish and really get involved as a group.

Sounds like L1 to me? It's full every week, most people in there stand and people who are in there claim they want to sing, but more often than not the atmosphere is very lacklustre. If the people in L1 who claim they want to sing actually did it for 90 minutes, more or less non stop, then it would encourage others around the stadium to get involved and it would improve the atmosphere significantly.

I personally think the problem is that we're currently in our longest spell outside of the top division and we're playing teams like Barnsley, Peterborough and Bristol City every week - it's difficult to get too excited over that to be honest; don't get me wrong, I still love going down to watch City play anyone, I'd watch us if we were relegated down to the conference, but if we establish ourselves in the PL you'll see the fans flock back and the atmosphere improve massively when we're playing teams like Arsenal, Man United, Chelsea and Liverpool in front of sell out crowds every week instead.

[marbelladave]

I have never been in L1 but I have on occasion been very close.

My view is that L1 is pretty much a joke, a bunch of kids who think they are tough confronting the away fans and mostly indulging in drunken foul mouthed abuse and aggressive posturing. (From behind a fence naturally...... )

They watch little of the game and their support for the team is actually pretty poor.

Much maligned as they are, the only support that is really noticeable is the 'we love you' chant and the Poznan celebration, little else is really audible from the west stand. The away support benefits from the concentration factor but the disruptive and divisive behaviour of some of the (hard core ?) fans does stop some from going. I go to plenty of away games and rarely bother to go in the 'away end', preferring decent seats elsewhere in the ground.

I do not really agree with your final point about the fans flocking back in the PL, should we get there, pricing will be a big issue. Also I can see the increase in numbers including a lot of families bring the kids to see the 'big' stars, don't think that will add much to the atmosphere.

As I have said, the only way to bring back the atmosphere is to significantly reduce ticked prices and some way for the club to embrace standing and, idealy, unreserved places.

[Captain...]

Very fair comment Kitch.......

Given the realities of modern football, I think the only hope is to get the club involved. To 'officially' designate areas for fans who want to sing and shout, it needs to be all standing and preferably unreserved so that the fans can come together as they wish and really get involved as a group.

The German model is worth looking at, 'Ultra' style fans being encouraged in certain areas of the ground and they respond well by being extremely supportive of their side and although boisterous and noisy they are rarely violent, (some old style East German teams excepted). Pricing plays a big part too, the costs are far too high in England, pricing out many potential fans and numbers do make a big difference.

There are some fantastic 'Ultra' groups all over Europe but sadly there are some that embrace violence and racism and it is these groups who are most prominent in the media.

This gives the English authorities and clubs the excuse to to impose stringent compliance issues on the fans and by the use of reserved seating and (when they wish) heavy stewarding they break up the noisy or troublesome fans before anything can happen.

English clubs have worked hard to break up the mass working class support and it would take a massive change in attitude to change that around, not going to happen anytime soon.

As I said in my first post, it is all about compliance and control, the clubs have it and will be very reluctant to losen their grip. The appalling behaviour of some fans gives the clubs all the excuse they need to continue to neuter the matchday experience and turn the stadia into some sort of oversized, family, McDonalds.......

Probably not going to enjoy this thread Dave.

[1964FOX]

I do not really agree with your final point about the fans flocking back in the PL, should we get there, pricing will be a big issue. Also I can see the increase in numbers including a lot of families bring the kids to see the 'big' stars, don't think that will add much to the atmosphere.

As I have said, the only way to bring back the atmosphere is to significantly reduce ticked prices and some way for the club to embrace standing and, idealy, unreserved places.

Sadly I have to agree, the majority of an increase on crowd numbers will be for example Man U glory fans coming to watch their team not Leicester and no help to he atmosphere. In fact they will probably jump up and clap when the opposition score.

[marbelladave]

http://www.foxestalk...ll-fan-culture/

Probably not going to enjoy this thread Dave.

Thanks for the link mon capitane.......

Looks like it could be the first steps in a government attempt to enforce 'compliance' and all the issues that brings.

Neutering football is just another part of the modern obsession with control and 'family friendly', politically correct environments.

Expect that keeping the score in a game will soon be outlawed too, someone might lose and this might upset the fans and they might cry or get rowdy, God forbid..........

[RonnieTodger]

One thing I've noticed is on the train at away games or even walking towards to ground. You always hear the old boys and young'uns chanting the classics and my favourite is just "Blue Army" without the "Who are we", like we used to in the 90s. I understand that the older lads don't want to be in the L1 area and a lot probably don't even go to home games, but my point is (I'm open to being wrong by the way): Do these people that start these decent songs on the train etc. do it in the ground? I've never actually been in L1 in a league game so I dont know if Jobber starts the majority of songs off by banging his drum, or that he joins in when necessary.

You hear these classics like Iwan is a Welshman, Blue Army, We Love you Leicester all the time in the stations of other cities but very rarely in the ground. If people start them off on the train and get them going, why can't they in the grounds? The 3 songs I've listed don't contain great detail in their lyrics either. All very simple to join in. Blue Army when chanted for a while sounds great.

[Kitchandro]

One thing I've noticed is on the train at away games or even walking towards to ground. You always hear the old boys and young'uns chanting the classics and my favourite is just "Blue Army" without the "Who are we", like we used to in the 90s. I understand that the older lads don't want to be in the L1 area and a lot probably don't even go to home games, but my point is (I'm open to being wrong by the way): Do these people that start these decent songs on the train etc. do it in the ground? I've never actually been in L1 in a league game so I dont know if Jobber starts the majority of songs off by banging his drum, or that he joins in when necessary.

You hear these classics like Iwan is a Welshman, Blue Army, We Love you Leicester all the time in the stations of other cities but very rarely in the ground. If people start them off on the train and get them going, why can't they in the grounds? The 3 songs I've listed don't contain great detail in their lyrics either. All very simple to join in. Blue Army when chanted for a while sounds great.

I don't think many of them are in the ground tbh. Certainly there's not enough of them in L like there used to be.

[RonnieTodger]

I don't think many of them are in the ground tbh. Certainly there's not enough of them in L like there used to be.

Maybe not at home games, but we don't chant a lot of these songs actually in the grounds away from home either.

[davieG]

My lad is due to have their 'jolly boys outing' at the Cardiff game, there used to be 10 or more of them now none of them go regularly. Even for this and recent Jollies 4 of the 8 stay in the pub rather than go to the match.

[lestajigs]

52 yrs old

Still stand every game and still sing.

Season ticket holder that goes some away games

(my lad plays on Saturday mornings in a Midland league so I dont get to as many City games as I would like).

Am I allowed to still go away matches???? Can one of the critical youngsters please tell me as I am so old I need you to help me out here.

Oh and those same youngsters, who 'supposedly'

do all the singing. Can you please try to be more imaginative. Oh please dont get me wrong. There is still room for singing, Leicester, Leicester, Leicester, Leicester, repeatedly. In fact

when done well I think it brings back the old spirit of intimidating the opposition team and fans. (Oh dear opened a can of worms there !! do we really want to intimidate?? -yes is the answer by the way)

But god some of the mundane drum led rubbish

you lot do, lets face it, it's crap. Also, Please, Please slow down when singing 'When you're smiling', IT'S NOT A FVCKING RACE !!

An old git that will be standing and singing on Saturday, hoping for a goal fest against Barnsley.

Fair ****ing play

[Foxy Bingo]

I don't have a problem with it until they sit down and make others sit down with them and refuse to make any sort of noise. Bolton this season being a prime example. I was forced to move cause of the sitting down brigade who all seemed to be over 60..

[Guest]

I don't have a problem with it until they sit down and make others sit down with them and refuse to make any sort of noise. Bolton this season being a prime example. I was forced to move cause of the sitting down brigade who all seemed to be over 60..

They're probably sitting down because they're over 60 and standing up for a couple of hours ain't really feasible