BoneDog Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 I don't think that the suspicion that the controversy is not mainstream and has been stirred up by security forces was of any great comfort to Mr Westergaard when he and his daughter were cowering in their specially built safe room whilst the Somali who had broken into him home tried to get at him... Are you also suggesting the security forces whipped up the violent demonstrations and effigy burning that forced Salman Rushdie into hiding or that the security forces prompted attacks on US embassies last year after it became known that a shitty film insulted the prophet? What evidence do you have for this? There is an alternative explanation - that all kinds of murderous worldviews on issues such as blasphemy, homosexuality and suicide bombing are held by the mainstream majority (not isolated nutters) throughout the middle east. This alternative suggestion is supported by published evidence, such as the surveys that Sam Harris quotes in his books and on his websites. I prefer the evidence to your suggestions of a conspiracy. You're wrong, but you are free to have that view of Muslims, I don't care. Can't be bothered with this anymore and have had to push myself lately to even read these threads, but I'll say a little. The Rushdie thing had secret services, secret societies and other mush all over it. Not in doubt. As for the film and it's aftermath last year, including the murder of the ambassador, if you don't know anything about the shiftiness of that whole event then you must have a very narrow range of places you get your information from. Blatant CIA involvement and inaction when it got messy. Again, not in doubt.
BoneDog Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 Fair enough, ignore those quotations. However you must admit that Islam is a sexist religion. Hey, most religions are, due to the fact they were invented in a time when women were treated as slaves and sex dolls. I hate all religion, not just Islam btw. Sooner it's gone from the world the better. No I don't really think Islam is a sexist religion, but I can certainly see why some people do due to the practices of many people. This whole world is sexist as hell in 2012 but I don't see people complaining about it! I also don't think that women were treated as slaves and sex dolls back then any more than they are nowadays. Mo's first wife was an older and very successful business woman. She had clout, like Hilary.
flowwolf Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 Of course I don't surrender, just not sure if it's worth it! How about " abject " surrender then.
flowwolf Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 Didn't he marry her at 6 aswell Well I suppose we should give him credit for waiting three years before he did her.
flowwolf Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 If you tried to understand your history it was actually quite 'normal' for a man to marry a 9 year old, not just Muslim men but men from all different faiths Yes well as humans we have moved on from that mind set and realise that they are just children hence the law against sex with children. So what are you saying then Mohamed was right ?
BoneDog Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 Maybe it was Kurt Westergaard who started the whole Mohammed/paedo calumny. After all, muslims all over the world would not want him killed just for doing some drawings, would they? That would be madness... You said 'Muslims all over the world'. I told you that that is not true. I think what you meant to say was that you saw some protests from around the world on the news, and took it from the few clips you saw that 'most muslims around the world want him dead'. That was probably the gist of the reports you saw. Most people at the protests were probably upset yes, but I believe that your statement is wrong. It reminds me of a passage I once read in a John Simpson book about the effigy and flag burnings at protests in Pakistan and Afghanistan that he witnessed whilst reporting for the BBC.
BoneDog Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 Well I suppose we should give him credit for waiting three years before he did her. Yes well as humans we have moved on from that mind set and realise that they are just children hence the law against sex with children. So what are you saying then Mohamed was right ? HOLY F*&K are you blind, or are you just on the wind up?!
flowwolf Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 HOLY F*&K are you blind, or are you just on the wind up?! Christ your using blaspheme now !
Vacamion Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 You're wrong, but you are free to have that view of Muslims, I don't care. Can't be bothered with this anymore and have had to push myself lately to even read these threads, but I'll say a little. The Rushdie thing had secret services, secret societies and other mush all over it. Not in doubt. As for the film and it's aftermath last year, including the murder of the ambassador, if you don't know anything about the shiftiness of that whole event then you must have a very narrow range of places you get your information from. Blatant CIA involvement and inaction when it got messy. Again, not in doubt. Oh, I get it. You just assert that I'm wrong and don't provide the evidence I requested or refute the evidence I referred to. Loving your work. Not really influenced by it yet, though.
leicsmac Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 Any religion (yes, that includes Islam) is not in itself inherently bad. It's the people the twist the meaning and words of it and use those to justify acts of oppression that are. This is about people, not theology. The generalisations here are totally unjustified.
flowwolf Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 Any religion (yes, that includes Islam) is not in itself inherently bad. It's the people the twist the meaning and words of it and use those to justify acts of oppression that are. This is about people, not theology. The generalisations here are totally unjustified. Yes but all religions provide a vehicle for the said twisting which makes them all inherently bad. People produce theology they are both the same thing, someone's understanding is someone elses ignorance.
leicsmac Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 Yes but all religions provide a vehicle for the said twisting which makes them all inherently bad. People produce theology they are both the same thing, someone's understanding is someone elses ignorance. Don't get me wrong - I dislike organised religion as much as the next man, however I believe wholeheartedly in a persons freedom to practise their religion, even though I think it's all a bit silly. Just as long as that practice does not affect other people in a negative fashion - which unfortunately, all major religions are guilty of due to lots of people bringing politics and social norms into it. Pretty much like any other fundamental freedom. Just like anything else to do with people, religion can be good or bad depending on the person interpreting or using it.
flowwolf Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 Don't get me wrong - I dislike organised religion as much as the next man, however I believe wholeheartedly in a persons freedom to practise their religion, even though I think it's all a bit silly. Just as long as that practice does not affect other people in a negative fashion - which unfortunately, all major religions are guilty of due to lots of people bringing politics and social norms into it. Pretty much like any other fundamental freedom. Just like anything else to do with people, religion can be good or bad depending on the person interpreting or using it. And the good bits about religion are ?
leicsmac Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 And the good bits about religion are ? Many thousands of hospitals and shelters around the world started by religious groups, for one. And religious belief providing people with a will to help others, and helping with the fear of death. Yes, I know these things could be perceived as human weakness (ie. needing fear of divine retribution or the thought of an afterlife to not fear death) but some people need an emotional crutch. End of. As I've said before, I dislike organised religion, but nor can I say that it is absolutely and exclusively bad. And now you've made me defend it I'm going to take a shower. *shudders*
Rincewind Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 There is a drop in centre in Leicester to help vulnerable people such as homeless and families living on the breadline. It is run by Muslims and other faiths as a joint venture. I have noyt heard of them attacking each other for believing in another god. To me they are just good people that want to help others that need help. I do not care what religion a person is. I am non religious but that does not mean I think all religions or religious people are bad. I just think you do not need a god to tell you to be a good person which is more important for me. I am not defending religion per sa but good people that may or may not follow a religion.
acooling08 Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 Any benefit of religion has been far outweighed by the wars, pain and persecution it has caused over human history. Religion is inherantly an evil establishment to control people through fear. This coupled with the very human desire to figure out where we came from and why we are here. This is now explained by science, but still some people cling to the big man in the sky like little children cling on to Santa and the tooth fairy.
Rincewind Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 I agree which is why I treat people for what they are first and ignore their religion.
Bettsj2 Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 Religion is the easiest excuse for conflict and has been throughout time, whether it be modern jihad or the crusades to Jerusalem. All of it is just wanting power and using religion as the vehicle to recruit. All religions are incredibly peaceful and if observed correctly can provide anything you need.
leicsmac Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 Any benefit of religion has been far outweighed by the wars, pain and persecution it has caused over human history. Religion is inherantly an evil establishment to control people through fear. This coupled with the very human desire to figure out where we came from and why we are hear. This is now explained by science, but still some people cling to the big man in the sky like little children cling on to Santa and the tooth fairy. Can you prove that conclusively? Why pour scorn on people you perceive as 'weaker'? And as a scientist I will say there's a fair bit that goes on that science can't explain right now. Of course religion doesn't explain it adequately either, but dismissing it out of hand like the matter is closed is disingenuous. I agree which is why I treat people for what they are first and ignore their religion. Precisely. Religion is the easiest excuse for conflict and has been throughout time, whether it be modern jihad or the crusades to Jerusalem. All of it is just wanting power and using religion as the vehicle to recruit. All religions are incredibly peaceful and if observed correctly can provide anything you need. Pretty much this. If religion didn't exist, I'm pretty sure corrupt and power-hungry humans would invent another reason to gain and maintain control of other people. Oh that's right, they have. It's called economics and 'the market'.
Rincewind Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 In prehistoric times a set of rules had to be put in place to stop men taking women of any age whenever they wanted fighting and causing mayhem in villages. The elders came up with the idea that if the tribes people did not want to upset the gods in the skies (constellations were clearer then) wouldpunish them. Little was known about life so there was fear about dieing so hey presto the afterlife was put in place to take away fear. Good crops and the gods were pleased bad crops the gods needed something to appease them. Sacrifices of animals and if that didn't work young girls. If you ignore the first 5 or 6 of the Commandments you pretty much have a list of moral codes to live by. I'm all for a Secular way of life.
flowwolf Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 Can you prove that conclusively? Why pour scorn on people you perceive as 'weaker'? And as a scientist I will say there's a fair bit that goes on that science can't explain right now. Of course religion doesn't explain it adequately either, but dismissing it out of hand like the matter is closed is disingenuous. Precisely. Pretty much this. If religion didn't exist, I'm pretty sure corrupt and power-hungry humans would invent another reason to gain and maintain control of other people. Oh that's right, they have. It's called economics and 'the market'. Thought you had gone for a cold shower ? :D My problem with religion is they all shove their beliefs in your face , you cannot live your life without seeing it's imagery in the shape of crosses , star of davids , cresent moons ect all because they believe their particular crappy theory for the meaning of life is the real one.
leicsmac Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 Thought you had gone for a cold shower ? :D My problem with religion is they all shove their beliefs in your face , you cannot live your life without seeing it's imagery in the shape of crosses , star of davids , cresent moons ect all because they believe their particular crappy theory for the meaning of life is the real one. Yeah, I share your dislike of proselytisers. Fellas...If I wanted to know about your religion I'd look it up myself, thanks. Unfortunately organised religion can be pretty bad for this. But at the same time I have no problem with any one person believing in God, Allah, Yahweh, Cthulu or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. And I think that that freedom of belief is a freedom that should be protected in the same way as freedom of speech, thought etc. I actually think our viewpoints on this aren't as far apart as suspected.
The Doctor Posted 27 January 2013 Posted 27 January 2013 Yeah, I share your dislike of proselytisers. Fellas...If I wanted to know about your religion I'd look it up myself, thanks. Unfortunately organised religion can be pretty bad for this. But at the same time I have no problem with any one person believing in God, Allah, Yahweh, Cthulu or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. And I think that that freedom of belief is a freedom that should be protected in the same way as freedom of speech, thought etc. I actually think our viewpoints on this aren't as far apart as suspected. I wouldn't believe in jesus, he's a right little dick: for the record, if you actually do this you deserve everything you get.
BoneDog Posted 28 January 2013 Posted 28 January 2013 My problem with religion is they all shove their beliefs in your face , you cannot live your life without seeing it's imagery in the shape of crosses , star of davids , cresent moons ect all because they believe their particular crappy theory for the meaning of life is the real one. Of course you're going to see a cross, a star of David, a crescent moon and the sort during your life. About 4 or 5 billion people believe in one or other religion. What do you expect? Do you want them all to hide? How about they are banned? I cannot remember the last time somebody tried to force their religion on me. However, every time I turn on the tele there is some fundamentalist atheist crap being spewed from some loons mouth. And those loons get taken seriously by so called 'bright' tv 'personalities'! Think you're going over the top.
Finnegan Posted 28 January 2013 Posted 28 January 2013 4 to 5 billion are practicing religious? Bollocks.
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