5waller5 Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 Of those 4, one of them was in League One so literally an impossibility to get us into the Premier. One of them was the first year up and whilst he hasn't got us up, no-one was seriously expecting it were they? We over-achieved that year for me, even if we did fail in the end - and even if Southampton & Norwich have since got consecutive promotions. 2011/12 he had a hard job, but he didn't deliver, although truth be told I'd given up on promotion very early on that year. The year just gone is the worst he's had here for me and the worst thing about it is for so long, it looked like being the best. I fully agree with your last point though. Like I say I back Pearson but he certainly isn't immune to criticism from me - and no-one should be from anything in football. I can see those excuses put forward for NP's performance (I'll avoid the word failure) and can certainly see the merits in those arguments ..... What i don't understand is how those arguments can be put forward to support NP and then the same people call Sven the biggest disaster etc etc ..... He had one season that he took us from bottom to the fringe of the play offs ..... then 13 games of the next season and he was always within a win of the play offs then. It seems acceptable to call that failure and yet defend NP for a very similar level of performance but over a much greater time period. Some balance would be nice rather than the polarisation.
Dan Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 I can see those excuses put forward for NP's performance (I'll avoid the word failure) and can certainly see the merits in those arguments ..... What i don't understand is how those arguments can be put forward to support NP and then the same people call Sven the biggest disaster etc etc ..... He had one season that he took us from bottom to the fringe of the play offs ..... then 13 games of the next season and he was always within a win of the play offs then. It seems acceptable to call that failure and yet defend NP for a very similar level of performance but over a much greater time period. Some balance would be nice rather than the polarisation. It isn't a similar level of performance though for me. When Sven was in charge, he started fairly well, then inconsistent, then went on that excellent run where only an Iain Hume goal denied us 8 wins in a row, but after that was ended in Cardiff, we never recovered. We were appalling away from home and whilst we were excellent at home, our inability to win two straight games was an embarrassment. The following year we had shown if anything, signs of regression under Sven - as inconsistent as before, as shit away as before and if anything, less entertaining. We were literally bang average in 2011/12 under Sven and we had spent ridiculous money to 'achieve' that. It's easy to say he's not had a full season, but could anyone honestly tell me they thought we were going up? Did anyone really expect a miraculous change in form and some further additions in January to take us up? Certainly not me. He'd made a huge mess of something with serious potential and whilst he was arguably booted early (I personally think he wasn't), he was doing more damage than progression. Pearson's definitely got his flaws, one of his main ones for me is putting Knockaert as a right midfielder in a 4-4-2 - probably the best attacking midfielder/second striker in the league and he's put out wide to fit in a mediocre formation. It's a complete waste for me. On the balance of things though, I do think Pearson has a lot going for him and I've covered it before - I'd love to know what the hell happened towards the end of last year though. First time in either of his tenures that I was honestly beginning to lose faith in the bloke.
indierich06 Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 I can see those excuses put forward for NP's performance (I'll avoid the word failure) and can certainly see the merits in those arguments ..... What i don't understand is how those arguments can be put forward to support NP and then the same people call Sven the biggest disaster etc etc ..... He had one season that he took us from bottom to the fringe of the play offs ..... then 13 games of the next season and he was always within a win of the play offs then. It seems acceptable to call that failure and yet defend NP for a very similar level of performance but over a much greater time period. Some balance would be nice rather than the polarisation. It wasn't a similar level of performance for me though, no other Leicester manager in the last 10 years has had the same resources that Sven had at his disposal and while we were always close to the playoffs under Sven, we never made it in there under him. Not even for one week. I can imagine what the threads would be like on here if Pearson had spend upwards of £10 million on players but never got into the playoffs after a year in charge, but for some reason Sven seems to get a lot less flack for it.
5waller5 Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 It wasn't a similar level of performance for me though, no other Leicester manager in the last 10 years has had the same resources that Sven had at his disposal and while we were always close to the playoffs under Sven, we never made it in there under him. Not even for one week. I can imagine what the threads would be like on here if Pearson had spend upwards of £10 million on players but never got into the playoffs after a year in charge, but for some reason Sven seems to get a lot less flack for it. He gets shed loads of flack for it ... every other post is a reference to how bad Sven was and how NP can't do x because Sven's crazy contracts!!!! I'm bored of the flack that Sven gets ... he started a project, got the bullet before he'd had a decent amount of time to judge him on .... NP's had that time and not delivered, but not been given the same outcome. Yet. And that's the whole pointless bit for me .... he'll be sacked by Christmas and we'll have wasted 4 seasons on the wrong man in the first place. Sven was and always will be nearer to a premiership manager than NP. We shouldn't have replaced Sven with NP. It wasn't a similar level of performance for me though, no other Leicester manager in the last 10 years has had the same resources that Sven had at his disposal and while we were always close to the playoffs under Sven, we never made it in there under him. Not even for one week. I can imagine what the threads would be like on here if Pearson had spend upwards of £10 million on players but never got into the playoffs after a year in charge, but for some reason Sven seems to get a lot less flack for it. Two points off the play offs .... one point inside the play offs ..... it's pretty similar!!!
Happy Fox Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 He gets shed loads of flack for it ... every other post is a reference to how bad Sven was and how NP can't do x because Sven's crazy contracts!!!! I'm bored of the flack that Sven gets ... he started a project, got the bullet before he'd had a decent amount of time to judge him on .... NP's had that time and not delivered, but not been given the same outcome. Yet. And that's the whole pointless bit for me .... he'll be sacked by Christmas and we'll have wasted 4 seasons on the wrong man in the first place. Sven was and always will be nearer to a premiership manager than NP. We shouldn't have replaced Sven with NP. Two points off the play offs .... one point inside the play offs ..... it's pretty similar!!! Different stages of the season though so it isn't similar.
indierich06 Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 He gets shed loads of flack for it ... every other post is a reference to how bad Sven was and how NP can't do x because Sven's crazy contracts!!!! I'm bored of the flack that Sven gets ... he started a project, got the bullet before he'd had a decent amount of time to judge him on .... NP's had that time and not delivered, but not been given the same outcome. Yet. And that's the whole pointless bit for me .... he'll be sacked by Christmas and we'll have wasted 4 seasons on the wrong man in the first place. Sven was and always will be nearer to a premiership manager than NP. We shouldn't have replaced Sven with NP. Two points off the play offs .... one point inside the play offs ..... it's pretty similar!!! You can keep telling yourself the same, but I know where I'd rather finish at the end of the season.
5waller5 Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 Different stages of the season though so it isn't similar. Sven didn't get til the end of the season, remember?
indierich06 Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 Sven didn't get til the end of the season, remember? What about the one where he took over in October and constantly blew several chance to get into playoffs. Remember? Your bizarre, continual defence of a man who not only failed at this club, but has financially crippled us for years to come, is getting very old now.
Dan Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 He gets shed loads of flack for it ... every other post is a reference to how bad Sven was and how NP can't do x because Sven's crazy contracts!!!! I'm bored of the flack that Sven gets ... he started a project, got the bullet before he'd had a decent amount of time to judge him on .... NP's had that time and not delivered, but not been given the same outcome. Yet. And that's the whole pointless bit for me .... he'll be sacked by Christmas and we'll have wasted 4 seasons on the wrong man in the first place. Sven was and always will be nearer to a premiership manager than NP. We shouldn't have replaced Sven with NP. Two points off the play offs .... one point inside the play offs ..... it's pretty similar!!! A project? Was that project called 'bankrupt Leicester City'?
seenitall Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 Hypocrisy in the way you'll constantly belittle people who snob off anything you say, yet you do the exact same whenever anyone dares to back the manager. Hypocrisy in the way you slam a manager who has done better than anyone here since O'Neill, yet defend Sven who left us in a mess not far off Peter Taylor style. We have under-achieved in the past 10 years. That goes without saying. Anyone happy with the last 10 years I agree is supporting the wrong club - I just find it harsh how Pearson often seems to take the flack for how long we've been out the top division whilst he's the only one in that time who's got us anywhere near getting back there. Course I want promotion, and when we go up I don't want to settle for being a bottom half Premier side, I'd like to see us try and emulate Swansea and get into Europe. I just acknowledge it doesn't all happen instantly - especially when you're in the financial mess we're potentially in. Not sure about the belittling thing - each to their own - must admit to feeling the need to shoot back sometimes perhaps irrationally when shot down but hey, its a message board The hypocrisy re Nige is a bit rich....so because he is the best of a bad bunch that makes him great? Good? Slightly better? Still not good enough? Stalin was arguably a better leader than Hitler but I'm not sure either of them would be my choice... Then you go and agree with me (which is nice). Nige has not got us near the Premier League - near would be losing narrowly at Wembley or finishing third by a point after a hard fought campaign and a bit of refereeing injustice in the last game sort of thing. Not getting promoted via the play offs is the same as not being promoted for finishing 16th ultimately - you are not promoted. What happens if we get promoted is a moot point - we haven't been and while I hope we can do it this year, I still don't feel we saw enough in the second half of the season to suggest we are moving forwards...my opinion, that is all.
Guest MattP Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 He gets shed loads of flack for it ... every other post is a reference to how bad Sven was and how NP can't do x because Sven's crazy contracts!!!! I'm bored of the flack that Sven gets ... he started a project, A project? Bringing in expensive and often useless loanees on massive money whilst handing out long term contracts (or telling whoever was giving them out it was sensible to) to players already at the club who everyone knew weren't good enough for where Sven was saying he wanted to take us wasn't a project. (I mean seriously wtf was he actually doing giving long term deals to Gallcher, Oakley and Wellens if his actual intention was to end up in the Premier League within a year or two, can anyone actually get their head around that?) :blink: :blink: Unless the idea of the project was to take us into administration. How anyone can refer to Sven as a better manager than NP in this division is incredible, it's akin to thinking Matt Mills is a better centre half than Wes Morgan because he cost more.
5waller5 Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 A project? Bringing in expensive and often useless loanees on massive money whilst handing out long term contracts (or telling whoever was giving them out it was sensible to) to players already at the club who everyone knew weren't good enough for where Sven was saying he wanted to take us wasn't a project. (I mean seriously wtf was he actually doing giving long term deals to Gallcher, Oakley and Wellens if his actual intention was to end up in the Premier League within a year or two, can anyone actually get their head around that?) :blink: :blink: Unless the idea of the project was to take us into administration. How anyone can refer to Sven as a better manager than NP in this division is incredible, it's akin to thinking Matt Mills is a better centre half than Wes Morgan because he cost more. The project was to build a side .... we're often reminded how long this takes by the NP love-in .... but for Sven much less time was given and from a worse position. I Only defend him from the irrational and excessive criticism .... Wellens, Gally and Oakley .... doesn't make sense i agree. I think it may have been that those players needed to be "on side" so he tried to buy their loyalty. Matt Mills v wes Morgan ..... It's exactly like that - one of opinion - ours after seeing them in one season a piece is that wes > Mills. Over their careers?? You'd have a close argument that MM > WM ..... depends what time frame you base your opinion. We're criticised for not basing our opinion of NP on his whole tenure at LCFC and not his disaster of half a season .... and yet are happy to compare everyone else on short timescales. Everyone will use the "facts' for their own argument at the end of the day.
Guest MattP Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 The project was to build a side .... we're often reminded how long this takes by the NP love-in .... but for Sven much less time was given and from a worse position. I Only defend him from the irrational and excessive criticism .... Wellens, Gally and Oakley .... doesn't make sense i agree. I think it may have been that those players needed to be "on side" so he tried to buy their loyalty. Matt Mills v wes Morgan ..... It's exactly like that - one of opinion - ours after seeing them in one season a piece is that wes > Mills. Over their careers?? You'd have a close argument that MM > WM ..... depends what time frame you base your opinion. We're criticised for not basing our opinion of NP on his whole tenure at LCFC and not his disaster of half a season .... and yet are happy to compare everyone else on short timescales. Everyone will use the "facts' for their own argument at the end of the day. I couldn't see the project of building a side from his signings, Ball, Pantsil, Vassell were all has beens on silly amounts of cash no doubt for what they gave and then we had the bizarre loan deals like Johnson and Fernandes who were never going to stick around anyway. I suppose you could make a point on the perm deals of Kasper, SSL Bamba and Mills as ones who could have been here for a while even if I thought the latter two are pretty poor defenders. The we had the Roman Bednar loan when I think a lot of fans were just thinking what on earth is this man doing? I think he tried to buy everyone's loyalty at some stage inside the club, shame it wasn't his own money doing it. Don't think there is any argument for Mills over Wes apart from an obscene transfer fee. Wes has spent virtually every year in this league, Mills has spent a couple of years.
Jace Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 Personally I thought Fernandes was an absolute quality signing shame he wasn't really given an oppertunity
Guest MattP Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 Personally I thought Fernandes was an absolute quality signing shame he wasn't really given an oppertunity Talented no doubt but clearly something really amiss when a player has had as many short term loans as he has had at his age. He has signed for four different clubs since he left us.
MC Prussian Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 I also agree that it would be really harsh of anyone to call that season a failure ...... But if we are talking about the last 10 seasons and that we are underperforming then the big picture is that NP has been the manager for a significant portion of that time. You could easily argue that he's the best we've had during that time .... But it's a being the most successful unsuccessful manager isn't much to write home about!! I'm coming round to the fact that he's going to be the manager next season .... I also can't help having a nagging doubt that it's another season "lost" and that the merry go round will start again 15 games into the season. What i do welcome though is a forum where we can talk about that without insults and without the sneering and name calling that people like seenitall (and me sometimes) put up with for having a different view to the majority. Now, now - are you warming up to Pearson after all? Come over to the dark side, you know it makes sense!!! But on a serious note, I don't like fans slagging off a team and its manager in particular when we haven't even started the new season. I do not appreciate and do not understand this very premature and irrational doom 'n gloom attitude and I often wonder what it takes to come to such a disastrous conclusion like yours. Pearson has had 3 1/2 seasons with us so far and that's NOT a very significant period over the last ten years. Also, he's had more success than anybody else during that span. Why is this so hard to grasp? Give the man the benefit of the doubt and let's enjoy the upcoming season. You may continue to slag him off should we finish in a worse position at the end of next season compared to last season's 6th place (and subsequent close sniff at a playoff final). Oh, and don't put seenitall and yourself in the same category. At least you're trying to make a point.
Deucalion Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 I agree with this, it's a sensible post .... So i want this to be taken as a sensible reply and not a NP hater reply ..... The reason he gets the flack is that he's the manager - the only one that can do anything about it - noone else can. Of that 10 years he's had 4? season finishes now - the time that promotion is either gained or lost ... so 4/10ths of that underperformance is under his stewardship .... OK one season was division one and he did get promoted - so 3/10ths..... When you have three attempts at something and fail each time, plus 1 (or was it 2?) at Hull you can surely see why people are questioning if he can do it?? I hate the pigeon holing and the argumentative nature of this forum ... you either love NP or hate him .... there's no middle ground and you're not a fan if you don't love him .... seems there's a polarisation like you're a capitalist or a socialist .... the fact is most people are neither - they believe something according to their own logic somewhere in-between. The problem I have with this is it assumes Leicester have some right to get promoted from the Championship. There is no doubt it has happened a lot in the past, and we have spent around half of our history in the top flight, but none of this actually matters that much anymore. As an advert once said: "past performance does not predict future performance." or some such. Football has changed over the last 20 years, and truth be told, Leicester have not been top flight regulars since the 60s. We spent most of the 80s in the second flight, half the 90s in the second flight, and most of the naughties. Are people who see Leicester as a top flight club and anything else is failure just deluding themselves?
Kitchandro Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 The project was to build a side .... we're often reminded how long this takes by the NP love-in .... but for Sven much less time was given and from a worse position. I Only defend him from the irrational and excessive criticism .... Wellens, Gally and Oakley .... doesn't make sense i agree. I think it may have been that those players needed to be "on side" so he tried to buy their loyalty. Matt Mills v wes Morgan ..... It's exactly like that - one of opinion - ours after seeing them in one season a piece is that wes > Mills. Over their careers?? You'd have a close argument that MM > WM ..... depends what time frame you base your opinion. We're criticised for not basing our opinion of NP on his whole tenure at LCFC and not his disaster of half a season .... and yet are happy to compare everyone else on short timescales. Everyone will use the "facts' for their own argument at the end of the day. But Sven didn't try to build a side. If he had wanted to he could have started when he joined. But he tried to loan a load of players on high wages and went for broke. When that didn't work out he tried to buy not only one team, but basically in his own words, 2 players for every position. At no point could you argue Sven tried to build a side.
Kitchandro Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 The problem I have with this is it assumes Leicester have some right to get promoted from the Championship. There is no doubt it has happened a lot in the past, and we have spent around half of our history in the top flight, but none of this actually matters that much anymore. As an advert once said: "past performance does not predict future performance." or some such. Football has changed over the last 20 years, and truth be told, Leicester have not been top flight regulars since the 60s. We spent most of the 80s in the second flight, half the 90s in the second flight, and most of the naughties. Are people who see Leicester as a top flight club and anything else is failure just deluding themselves? I'm sure we spent half the 80s in the top flight and most of the 70s. Regulars we were once, then we became a yo-yo side and now we're 2nd tier regulars. Things change. I get your point though. We should be expecting to challenge for promotion every year but actually getting promoted isn't easy. There are other big clubs in this division. Pearson has got much closer than anyone else. Sven never even looked like getting anywhere near it.
Happy Fox Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 I'm sure we spent half the 80s in the top flight and most of the 70s. Regulars we were once, then we became a yo-yo side and now we're 2nd tier regulars. Things change. I get your point though. We should be expecting to challenge for promotion every year but actually getting promoted isn't easy. There are other big clubs in this division. Pearson has got much closer than anyone else. Sven never even looked like getting anywhere near it. Micky Adams did, NP f**ked up last season no denying hopefully he has learnt from his lessons and can deliver this coming season.
Guest MattP Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 Micky Adams did, NP f**ked up last season no denying hopefully he has learnt from his lessons and can deliver this coming season. To be fair despite the administration it was still a pretty good squad he had to work with. Eliott, Izzet, Deane, Dickov, Walker, Oakes, Simclair, Impey, Taggart and Davidson were all capable of playing at a higher level than the championship. Us and Pompey were miles better than anyone else that year.
Kitchandro Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 Micky Adams did, NP f**ked up last season no denying hopefully he has learnt from his lessons and can deliver this coming season. I was talking about since we left the top flight.
Deucalion Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 I'm sure we spent half the 80s in the top flight and most of the 70s. Regulars we were once, then we became a yo-yo side and now we're 2nd tier regulars. Things change. I get your point though. We should be expecting to challenge for promotion every year but actually getting promoted isn't easy. There are other big clubs in this division. Pearson has got much closer than anyone else. Sven never even looked like getting anywhere near it. Without checking, I think the 60s is the last time we spent a decade in the top flight. Even though many people look back on the 70s with great affection, we managed to get relegated a couple of times in this period. I would still say the 50s and 60s is the only period of our history when we could genuinely claim to be top flight regulars. But I generally agree with what you are saying. We are by no means shoe-ins for promotion, as many fans and many bookies seem to think. We are one of many clubs who once did much better than they are now but have struggled since the advent of the Premier League. I think we should enjoy the division we are in and if we get promotion, then, in the words of David Batty, "Well it's a bonus int it." I know some people will say this lacks ambition, blah de blah, but if we did this, at least we wouldn't be constantly disappointed, bitter, angry and frustrated. Let's just enjoy it...like we did in League One.
Kitchandro Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 Without checking, I think the 60s is the last time we spent a decade in the top flight. Even though many people look back on the 70s with great affection, we managed to get relegated a couple of times in this period. I would still say the 50s and 60s is the only period of our history when we could genuinely claim to be top flight regulars. But I generally agree with what you are saying. We are by no means shoe-ins for promotion, as many fans and many bookies seem to think. We are one of many clubs who once did much better than they are now but have struggled since the advent of the Premier League. I think we should enjoy the division we are in and if we get promotion, then, in the words of David Batty, "Well it's a bonus int it." I know some people will say this lacks ambition, blah de blah, but if we did this, at least we wouldn't be constantly disappointed, bitter, angry and frustrated. Let's just enjoy it...like we did in League One. We were in the top flight from 71-78, so most of the decade.
Swiss_tony Posted 2 July 2013 Posted 2 July 2013 in 106 seasons of professional league football, we've spent 46 in the top flight and 60 out of the top flight.
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