The Good News thread, local jobs, economy etc

[Rincewind]

Perhaps someone can answer this question which was sent by email to around 100 MP's from several in an action group on Facebook

 

 

how can the Gov  justify making it (Bedroom tax) retrospective when tenants have no chance of downsizing,

 

This is taking in that the majority of councils were asked under the FOI Act 3 questions

 

1 How many single properties are available

2 How many tenants need to downsize? to a single occupancy.

4 How many tenants are on the waiting list for a sngle bedroom property

 

All results so far show the demand is far greater than properties available

 

And someone said people are not concerned about this kind of thing.

 

 I'm done with it now. I don't care what others think.

 

Interesting article and replies. It allows comments.

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/home/blogs/when-the-clocks-strike-13/6528274.article#.UhdRBqpVW90.twitter

Edited 24 August 2013 by Rincewind

[MooseBreath]

I agree that a totally pure meritocracy wouldn't be possible, it would be unworkable due to the sheer amount of work it would take to establish. It would be interesting to see how close we could get, though.

I guess what I'm looking for really in the short term is just a little more accountability and a continued drive to make sure that hard work at any level is rewarded as deserved, and more and more opportunities are available for people to do that hard work and get that reward, if they so choose. But also that is people choose to be comfortable where they are, and just work and earn enough to enjoy their life through other means, for that not to be stigmatised either.

Who determines how much reward is "deserved" though? Currently the market decides based on supply and demand. If you devote your whole life to matching socks in a market where people with the ability to match socks are in abundance and the demand for matched socks is falling, then you're going to struggle to command much reward even if you work hard everyday. If on the other hand you devote your life to something like tax accountancy then soon enough you'll find yourself in the possession of an in demand skillset which will earn you larger rewards, even if on a day to day basis you work less hard than the sock matcher. Anyone with an ounce of sense looks at this situation and thinks, I know, i'll develop and nurture my skillset over time so I'm always in demand and can always command a decent reward. Notwithstanding the potential effects of unanticipated events in one's life, this is a pretty reliable guide as to how to earn a decent living and has worked for many millions of people over many hundreds if not thousands of years.

What you seem to be suggesting is that this system is unfair because people who fail to develop any skills or develop skills in areas where there is high supply or little demand end up with less reward. I would say it is no more unfair than the negative consequences of any other bad decision you might make. As long as an individual has the choice over whether to stay on at school or take the job matching socks, then they only have themselves to thank or blame for the consequences of that decision.

[leicsmac]

Who determines how much reward is "deserved" though? Currently the market decides based on supply and demand. If you devote your whole life to matching socks in a market where people with the ability to match socks are in abundance and the demand for matched socks is falling, then you're going to struggle to command much reward even if you work hard everyday. If on the other hand you devote your life to something like tax accountancy then soon enough you'll find yourself in the possession of an in demand skillset which will earn you larger rewards, even if on a day to day basis you work less hard than the sock matcher. Anyone with an ounce of sense looks at this situation and thinks, I know, i'll develop and nurture my skillset over time so I'm always in demand and can always command a decent reward. Notwithstanding the potential effects of unanticipated events in one's life, this is a pretty reliable guide as to how to earn a decent living and has worked for many millions of people over many hundreds if not thousands of years.

What you seem to be suggesting is that this system is unfair because people who fail to develop any skills or develop skills in areas where there is high supply or little demand end up with less reward. I would say it is no more unfair than the negative consequences of any other bad decision you might make. As long as an individual has the choice over whether to stay on at school or take the job matching socks, then they only have themselves to thank or blame for the consequences of that decision.

 

Good points all. You seem to put a lot of stock in adaptability and free will, and I do too.

 

I don't think adaptability is entirely down to choice though - some people simply cannot (for whatever reason) do it. Perhaps they only have the capacity for one skill set, perhaps they lack the time or money (often one leading to the other) to learn another. I don't think they should be screwed by the system due to something out of their control. Much as I'd like to believe in absolute free will, some people have vastly more free will than others and the only freedom every single person in the world shares is the freedom to choose the end of their own life if they so wish.  

 

Of course market forces dictate what work is valuable and what isn't, and that's fair enough too - but I believe the discrepancy to be too big. What can be done about that I don't know though - a powerful group of people,say, aren't any more use dictating how much value is in a job than natural market forces due to the fact that power corrupts. So all in all it's a bit of a bugger really.

[The People's Hero]

You seem to be getting back to your old self a bit more TPH . and that's all good. 

 

I'm not prying or anything but you seemed a little out of sorts a few times you've been on in the last few months . It might have been my imagination but you seemed very  angry about something . I don't sense it so much recently .

 

if it was just my imagination i'm sorry just ignore me .

 

Interesting you say that, I consider myself to be a bit of a bon viveur, but maybe I need to accept I'm a miserable sod!

 

Funny how the self image can differ from reality, eh?

 

Its also odd how quickly these 34 waist trousers (every pair I own) seems to be shrinking round the middle. Same happened to the 32 inch waist pairs a few years ago. Dodgy 'made in china' worksmanship. Probably.

[Rincewind]

Moose one of my jobs in the hosiery was to match socks. In the early days it was considered a 'Gentlemans'' profession  At the start the blokes doing it used to turn up for work in 3 piece suits bowler hats and brollys (truth) Even when I started in the late 60's there were one or two that came to work dressed like that and smoked pipes (fags were too common)  This died off eventually but when I was trained after spending a few years doing warehouse packing the bloke training me was very particular about the 'countermans' knot' which was to wrap the string around two middle fingers tuck in and pull through, (not easy describing how to make a knot in text) and woe betide if I got it wrong.

Times changed though. it went from tieing bundles of socks the wrapping them in brown paper to putting them in bags and boxes. I was trained fpr less than three months after being told how skillful the job was. Only put on training because I asked to work in the loading bay area (more of a laugh there) or find another job (jft was easier then)

Anyway things started to go downhill for the trade. Some of the women wanted to do it as well. There were some objectuns but they had equality stuff on their side and one of our blokes who fancied one of the women

Eventually the work was incorporated into one operation. Examining pairing labeling and bagging. Rates changed so there was less need for the blokes. when I was made redundant there were two blokes left out of 30 when I started. The two left were ones who also did anything and were the last to object to cuts although in private moaned.

One a big bloke keen on keep fit press ups every morning. Died a couple of years back aged 65.

When I kne I was being made redundant I looked for similar jobs there were none. All the places that did it used unskilled labour or imported.

We used to supply Littlewoods, M&S BHS, Asda among others.

Sorry about doing my life story.

[The People's Hero]

To paraphrase Moosebreath's point, it was evident the writing was on the wall for the industry and indeed your job eventually. You seem to confess you noticed this as more and more were made unemployed. In that time, until you were made redundant, what efforts did you make to retrain/pick up new skills/make new contacts who might open up opportunities/make your own opportunities?

[Zingari]

Slavery in modern day Britain ? Surely not !!

They've only got themselves to blame though .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23831304

[Guest MattP]

Great read, this is Moose on top form.

[MooseBreath]

Slavery in modern day Britain ? Surely not !!

They've only got themselves to blame though .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23831304

Invoking such an extreme crime into your argument only makes you sound less credible imo.

[Zingari]

Invoking such an extreme crime into your argument only makes you sound less credible imo.

Shite moosey I thought you'd be delighted .   This was a thread for good news about the economy.

What better news is there than hearing that slavery is still alive and well and keeping labour costs down ?

 

The low paid need to know that we live in a global village now and if we are to compete this is the sort of stuff we need to do.

We can all shed a few crocodile tears though if we want to feel better.

[Webbo]

 

Shite moosey I thought you'd be delighted .   This was a thread for good news about the economy.

What better news is there than hearing that slavery is still alive and well and keeping labour costs down ?

 

The low paid need to know that we live in a global village now and if we are to compete this is the sort of stuff we need to do.

We can all shed a few crocodile tears though if we want to feel better.

 

Foreigners being trafficked illegally by mainly foreign gangs is really not relevant to the argument, especially as the govt is trying to stop it. Crime isn't a recent invention and it won't stop any time soon.

[leicsmac]

Foreigners being trafficked illegally by mainly foreign gangs is really not relevant to the argument, especially as the govt is trying to stop it. Crime isn't a recent invention and it won't stop any time soon.

 

It does however cast some doubts on the idea that everyone in this country has complete freedom of choice in the jobs market and life itself though, does it not?

[Zingari]

Foreigners being trafficked illegally by mainly foreign gangs is really not relevant to the argument, especially as the govt is trying to stop it. Crime isn't a recent invention and it won't stop any time soon.

Yeah right I bet they've been breaking their backs for years trying to put a stop to it .

(All governments , not just tory)

 It must be incredibly difficult to find out about this stuff (not)

 

 

Do you think it has an detrimental effect on low paid workers though ?

Has it made it harder for people to get legal jobs at reasonable working rates ?

 

Yes of course it has and if they really were determined to stop it it would have been stopped years ago .

but conveniently it has very good side effects. 

[MooseBreath]

It does however cast some doubts on the idea that everyone in this country has complete freedom of choice in the jobs market and life itself though, does it not?

I personally don't know anyone who it has happened to, but yes being captured by a human trafficking gang and forced to work as a slave on some god-forsaken Welsh pig farm would alter your prospects in an unfair way. Winning the lottery would alter your prospects in the same way in the other direction. These are events at the extreme ends of the bell curve. No government or style of society will ever be able to prevent extreme events from altering the fortunes of the individuals involved.

[Zingari]

I personally don't know anyone who it has happened to, but yes being captured by a human trafficking gang and forced to work as a slave on some god-forsaken Welsh pig farm would alter your prospects in an unfair way. Winning the lottery would alter your prospects in the same way in the other direction. These are events at the extreme ends of the bell curve. No government or style of society will ever be able to prevent extreme events from altering the fortunes of the individuals involved.

Do you really believe it's been that hard to detect these crimes ?

Flippin heck you can't fart in a working environment without the government stepping in .

I can't really believe it's been going on without raising any suspicion from the relevant authorities . 

The will hasn't been there to do anything about it , but maybe it's served it's purpose  , and we all should know our place by now and thankful to have a job.

 

I wonder how many MPs( totally unaware of the whole dirty business) have used this convenient labour supply.  

Edited 25 August 2013 by Zingari

[MooseBreath]

Do you really believe it's been that hard to detect these crimes ?

Flippin heck you can't fart in a working environment without the government stepping in .

I can't really believe it's been going on without raising any suspicion from the relevant authorities .

The will hasn't been there to do anything about it , but maybe it's served it's purpose , and we all should know our place by now and thankful to have a job.

I wonder how many MPs( totally unaware of the whole dirty business) have used this convenient labour supply.

Not really sure how the government would stand to gain from someone using non-taxpaying labour on a farm? Unless you're implying that the government has secretly directly employed slaves to use for their own ends? Maybe those evil mega rich MPs each have a posse of slaves kept in their dungeons and used for gardening and household chores?

[Zingari]

Not really sure how the government would stand to gain from someone using non-taxpaying labour on a farm? Unless you're implying that the government has secretly directly employed slaves to use for their own ends? Maybe those evil mega rich MPs each have a posse of slaves kept in their dungeons and used for gardening and household chores?

As well as keeping labour costs down on legal farms ( supply and demand , these suppliers are in the same market), it keeps the prices of goods down ( exports) and the workers  still have to spend the money (vat etc)

Edited 25 August 2013 by Zingari

[leicsmac]

I personally don't know anyone who it has happened to, but yes being captured by a human trafficking gang and forced to work as a slave on some god-forsaken Welsh pig farm would alter your prospects in an unfair way. Winning the lottery would alter your prospects in the same way in the other direction. These are events at the extreme ends of the bell curve. No government or style of society will ever be able to prevent extreme events from altering the fortunes of the individuals involved.

 

Participating in the lottery is a choice. Can't imagine that these people had much of one.

 

I'm trying to think of an event that would alter your life drastically for the better that you had no control over in the same way - perhaps coming into a massive inheritance? Perhaps you can help me out on that one.

 

Point is I think that quite a few more massively bad things happen to people that are beyond their control than massively good things.

 

Edit: As an aside this a cracking debate and I'm enjoying it.

Edited 25 August 2013 by leicsmac

[Rincewind]

 

Shite moosey I thought you'd be delighted .   This was a thread for good news about the economy.

What better news is there than hearing that slavery is still alive and well and keeping labour costs down ?

 

The low paid need to know that we live in a global village now and if we are to compete this is the sort of stuff we need to do.

We can all shed a few crocodile tears though if we want to feel better.

 

Spot on

 

 

Participating in the lottery is a choice. Can't imagine that these people had much of one.

 

I'm trying to think of an event that would alter your life drastically for the better that you had no control over in the same way - perhaps coming into a massive inheritance? Perhaps you can help me out on that one.

 

Point is I think that quite a few more massively bad things happen to people that are beyond their control than massively good things.

 

Edit: As an aside this a cracking debate and I'm enjoying it.

 

I'm enjoying reading it

[Webbo]

Participating in the lottery is a choice. Can't imagine that these people had much of one.

 

I'm trying to think of an event that would alter your life drastically for the better that you had no control over in the same way - perhaps coming into a massive inheritance? Perhaps you can help me out on that one.

 

Point is I think that quite a few more massively bad things happen to people that are beyond their control than massively good things.

 

Edit: As an aside this a cracking debate and I'm enjoying it.

And who is to blame for that? Assuming it's a totally random act that could happen to anyone, what can anyone do to stop that from happening?

[leicsmac]

And who is to blame for that? Assuming it's a totally random act that could happen to anyone, what can anyone do to stop that from happening?

 

Nothing can be done to stop it from happening, but we can offer support to those it happens to, rather than blaming them for it.

 

Edit: And yes, I know the response to this is "we have one of the most generous welfare states in the world". Yes we do, but it's clearly still not targetted in the right directions if people are still being left by the wayside through no fault of their own.

Edited 25 August 2013 by leicsmac

[Webbo]

Nothing can be done to stop it from happening, but we can offer support to those it happens to, rather than blaming them for it.

 

Edit: And yes, I know the response to this is "we have one of the most generous welfare states in the world". Yes we do, but it's clearly still not targetted in the right directions if people are still being left by the wayside through no fault of their own.

Who's to say whose fault it is? I've met plenty of people with shocking attitudes to getting a job but in their mind it's everybody's fault but theirs.

 

If you never accept responsibility for your own faults and expect everybody else to sort out your problems you'll never progress and you'll always be dependant on others.

[leicsmac]

Who's to say whose fault it is? I've met plenty of people with shocking attitudes to getting a job but in their mind it's everybody's fault but theirs.

 

If you never accept responsibility for your own faults and expect everybody else to sort out your problems you'll never progress and you'll always be dependant on others.

 

And that's the problem, and has been pretty much all the way along...how to differentiate between those suffering hardship through no fault of their own and those who just think it's no fault of their own. I don't really have a solution for that one, but like the justice system surely the presumption of 'innocence' should be applied?

 

As for being always dependant on others - they say that every man is an island, but as long as I know and can trust other people I see no problem with being dependent on them and the other way round. That is the basis of society, after all - mutual cooperation for mutual gain.

[Jon the Hat]

I think the biggest danger to society is that abject failure at high levels is so greatly rewarded .

So people aren't going to take to the streets right? But if they do it's all my fault is it ?

i like that , blaming me for all the problems . Have you been talking to my missus ?

Mass disruption on the streets is like the Spanish Inquisition , Nobody expects it .

Firstly, a tiny minority getting big payoffs is irrelevant.

Secondly, Everyone expected the Spanish Inquisition, they gave 14 days notice.

[MooseBreath]

More solid, workable common sense ideas from the Tories as they seek to rid our society of the awful, horribly cynical 'cash for votes' hand outs culture of the previous regime. Incentivising businesses to pay more than minimum wage while cutting hand outs. Attacking it from both directions. I like it a lot. Soon even the philpotts of this world might be tempted to put in a few shifts of work, and that will mean a lower welfare bill and an even more booming economy for us all to enjoy.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23934721

Edited 2 September 2013 by MooseBreath