Oh look, Peak oil turns out to be bullshit

[MooseBreath]

Most of them are hippies and surfers...mud huts are considered a luxury

You're using that progress word again. The technology is amazing yes, but whether it's safe and clean is far from proven. Plus each well needs an access road for thousands of trucks (that's something else "Horizon" conveniently skipped over). I'm guessing the residents of Byron don't want to trash their beautiful landscape for a few bucks

Access roads are hardly a big deal.

Good luck to the Byron Bay massive anyway. I trust they've already cut off their own mains supplies and are living on purely sustainable terms using clean energy sources. When I was there a few years back they seemed more interested in denying access to some corporate coffee shop or something than they did in ensuring their fisherman pants weren't made from child labour. They were incredibly excited about using their iPads to tweet details of their anti-consumerism protests, where they'd sit around smoking weed grown by some vicious Afghan drug cartel. Lord only knows how many landscapes were ruined and how many kids had to die to enable such a group of unproductive freaks to indulge themselves in a feeling a moral superiority.

Lovely place though, Byron Bay. Could easily see myself living there at some point.

[OzFox]

Access roads are hardly a big deal.

Good luck to the Byron Bay massive anyway. I trust they've already cut off their own mains supplies and are living on purely sustainable terms using clean energy sources. When I was there a few years back they seemed more interested in denying access to come corporate coffee shop or something than they did in ensuring their fisherman pants weren't made from child labour. They were incredibly excited about using their iPads to tweet details of their anti-consumerism protests, where they'd sit around smoking weed grown by some vicious Afghan drug cartel. Lord only knows how many landscapes were ruined and how many kids had to die to enable such a group of unproductive freaks to indulge themselves in a feeling a moral superiority.

 

You're talking hundreds of roads, each carrying thousands of trucks loaded with chemicals, sand and water. If they were rumbling past your door every day, you'd think it was a big deal. I've seen for myself whats happened in north dakota...sleepy little towns now choked with traffic. It's an ugly mess. And then there's the containment ponds, full of contaminated crap leaking into the soil...even more mess. Trust me it's not good. A lot of Americans don't have any say in the matter either. They can wake up to find a well 200m from their house because the neighbour sold out, or a pipeline crossing their land because it's "in the national interest"

 

Know what you mean about the Byron Bay crowd though. There is something slightly annoying about all this organic, holistic, tofu shit. And I can't shake off the smell of hemp 

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Oh for the old days of rubbing two sticks together to make a fire. How well I remember them.     

[Smudge]

Oh for the old days of rubbing two sticks together to make a fire. How well I remember them.     

I think you're taking your Neanderthal tag a bit far DT 

[Rincewind]

Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to live that life. A small plot of land growing your own vegetable. A community where you can get any help from carpentry to plumbing. No crime. A small village pub run by the local policeman. No crime. No TV. No internet. No interfering Government and self sufficiency. No LCFC. No Pearson and no blaming things on Wellens.

I'd miss some of it  maybe even most of it but if you know nothing else would you want the madness of a City?

[MooseBreath]

Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to live that life. A small plot of land growing your own vegetable. A community where you can get any help from carpentry to plumbing. No crime. A small village pub run by the local policeman. No crime. No TV. No internet. No interfering Government and self sufficiency. No LCFC. No Pearson and no blaming things on Wellens.

I'd miss some of it maybe even most of it but if you know nothing else would you want the madness of a City?

It would be an interesting experiment to put together a community consisting of the various required skillsets - builders, farmers etc. - all trading their skills with each other, with no motive but to achieve a basic standard of living - shelter, warmth, food for example. I wonder how many hours each person would have to work to keep up the standard.

[breadandcheese]

Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to live that life. A small plot of land growing your own vegetable. A community where you can get any help from carpentry to plumbing. No crime. A small village pub run by the local policeman. No crime. No TV. No internet. No interfering Government and self sufficiency. No LCFC. No Pearson and no blaming things on Wellens.

I'd miss some of it maybe even most of it but if you know nothing else would you want the madness of a City?

Self-sufficiency, individual / local community responsibility, small/no government. You're sounding like a conservative.

[Harry - LCFC]

It would be an interesting experiment to put together a community consisting of the various required skillsets - builders, farmers etc. - all trading their skills with each other, with no motive but to achieve a basic standard of living - shelter, warmth, food for example. I wonder how many hours each person would have to work to keep up the standard.

 

Travellers, or gypsies to give them their usual name, aren't too dissimilar from what you've described - probably the closest you're going to get to that kind of lifestyle. They're hated by many people although thats probably because they're fairly uneducated.

[Rincewind]

I like the idea of a barter system. Don't see it as conservative with no capitalism and communes.

[breadandcheese]

I like the idea of a barter system. Don't see it as conservative with no capitalism and communes.

It's still capitalism. Bartering is still capitalism, just instead of receiving money to be exchanged for goods or services later, you are receiving a promise from an individual tradesman.

Everything you describe is conservatism, relying on self-sufficiency and not relying on the government.

[leicsmac]

It's still capitalism. Bartering is still capitalism, just instead of receiving money to be exchanged for goods or services later, you are receiving a promise from an individual tradesman.

Everything you describe is conservatism, relying on self-sufficiency and not relying on the government.

 

Isn't that more Libertarian than Conservative?

[ADK]

Sounds more liberal than conservative.

[Harry - LCFC]

Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to live that life. A small plot of land growing your own vegetable. A community where you can get any help from carpentry to plumbing. No crime. A small village pub run by the local policeman. No crime. No TV. No internet. No interfering Government and self sufficiency. No LCFC. No Pearson and no blaming things on Wellens.

I'd miss some of it  maybe even most of it but if you know nothing else would you want the madness of a City?

 

Self-sufficiency, individual / local community responsibility, small/no government. You're sounding like a conservative.

 

Funny you should say that as I read what Ken said quite differently. To me what he described sounded like the communist ideal (not Stalin's brand of authoritarianism).

 

Total absence of big business with only small traders not looking to make profit, little ownership of property (i.e. "small plot of land") and work to help the community as a whole ("where you can get help from carpentry to plumbing"). It didn't really sound like self sufficiency to me given that people would ask for the labour of other members of the community.

 

Marx also talked about wanting to remove government interference eventually and allow people to live freely. I understand what you mean about the conservative comparison and perhaps I've misread it a bit but I also think it could be looked at another way.

[Rincewind]

 

 

 

 

Funny you should say that as I read what Ken said quite differently. To me what he described sounded like the communist ideal (not Stalin's brand of authoritarianism).

 

Total absence of big business with only small traders not looking to make profit, little ownership of property (i.e. "small plot of land") and work to help the community as a whole ("where you can get help from carpentry to plumbing"). It didn't really sound like self sufficiency to me given that people would ask for the labour of other members of the community.

 

Marx also talked about wanting to remove government interference eventually and allow people to live freely. I understand what you mean about the conservative comparison and perhaps I've misread it a bit but I also think it could be looked at another way.

 

That is what I meant. Share whatevers made amongst you. Do not work for a boss. If anyone is unable to do one job then find a simpler job. I do not think work effort would be a problem because the children would grow up with it. If someone is ill then others do their job. No complaints as it would be done for them. I see it more communism than conseratism although I'm not really that  left. If what they produce is sold to outsiders that's a different matter and a working hierachy would be set up. They would not be dependant on themselves but on the business people doing their job properly and part of the profit would be taken off the workers to invest in the business. The barter system would not involve money as it would not be needed.

 

REad a short SF story once. Basically spaceship lands on planet to find a human colony. After some puzzlement about the language it turns out that they worked on a favour system. Someone mended a fence so the receive paid back by fixing a roof and so on. It turns out one of the crew is a keen cyclist and he falls for a local girl So he stays to be a bike repairer. The captain of the ship gives the crew stay or leave. The majority stays.

It wasn't exactly a barter system but the principle is there.

[Webbo]

Bit of an impractical system though isn't it? The baker has to work hard every day to provide food that everybody needs, what can the manicurist give him that he'd want in return for his bread?

 

A much simpler system is instead of exchanging favours we hand over bits of paper of an agreed worth that the baker can spend on things he actually wants and needs.

[MPH]

It really is a tough call....

 

 

I can absolutely see the benefits of having a greater access to supposedly endless supplies of oil... And I do agree with an earlier comment that it at least gives us time to fine tune the technology to renewable energy sources...

 

 

But I can also see damage to the environment...

 

 

The only cost effective source of energy ( right now) that could be considered an alternative I guess would be nuclear.... I'm just wondering if what happened in Fukoshima  has in some peoples eyes made it less safer for the environment than fracking?

 

Maybe in time, they will develop safer ways to deal with the used chemicals that come from fracking and I think if they can do that then surely its a win-win. If , as alleged, the US can become self sustaining with their oil production within the next ten years, there could be no excuse and plenty of money to pour into safer technology / disposal of the chemicals.... If anything, it should be made a condition of having a fracking license - to invest some of the money into the things just mentioned..

 

 

I'd feel more comfortable with it if they could manage that..

[Rincewind]

Bit of an impractical system though isn't it? The baker has to work hard every day to provide food that everybody needs, what can the manicurist give him that he'd want in return for his bread?

 

A much simpler system is instead of exchanging favours we hand over bits of paper of an agreed worth that the baker can spend on things he actually wants and needs.

Yes you are right. Can't remember the exact story but I think there was a clause where the favors were interchangeable. It all evened out eventually. Maybe the manucist did haircuts too. No money would exchange hands so no worries about the ecomony.  After all the majority of money is invisible. Cash is only as good as the goods it buys if you understand that cuz I'm not sure. We worry about money but apart from paying for electric and rent etc to big corporations individuals could cope without. I'd have a vegetable allotment and give you regular supplies  for your handyman skills.

I'd doubt BT would accept   20 pound of sputs for their broadband service so it would not work here.

I'd like to see the reaction though if I turned up at the council and gave them sprouts for council tax payment.

[OzFox]

It really is a tough call....

 

 

I can absolutely see the benefits of having a greater access to supposedly endless supplies of oil... And I do agree with an earlier comment that it at least gives us time to fine tune the technology to renewable energy sources...

 

 

But I can also see damage to the environment...

 

 

The only cost effective source of energy ( right now) that could be considered an alternative I guess would be nuclear.... I'm just wondering if what happened in Fukoshima  has in some peoples eyes made it less safer for the environment than fracking?

 

Maybe in time, they will develop safer ways to deal with the used chemicals that come from fracking and I think if they can do that then surely its a win-win. If , as alleged, the US can become self sustaining with their oil production within the next ten years, there could be no excuse and plenty of money to pour into safer technology / disposal of the chemicals.... If anything, it should be made a condition of having a fracking license - to invest some of the money into the things just mentioned..

 

 

I'd feel more comfortable with it if they could manage that..

  

It would help if the energy companies would act responsibly and not try to cut corners. By the sound of it, some of the problems with fracking are caused by leaking well casings that haven't been sealed properly. Same with the chemicals in the ponds. If they spent a bit more money and took a bit more care, they'd stop the leaks

My understanding of Fukushima is that they built a nuclear power station in a known fracture zone, despite warnings from senior people. They also built a protective wall that was much lower than the tsunamis they'd had in the past

It would be an interesting experiment to put together a community consisting of the various required skillsets - builders, farmers etc. - all trading their skills with each other, with no motive but to achieve a basic standard of living - shelter, warmth, food for example. I wonder how many hours each person would have to work to keep up the standard.

You're forgetting human nature. Some greedy sod would want more than their fair share and scupper it for everyone else.

[MPH]

It would help if the energy companies would act responsibly and not try to cut corners. By the sound of it, some of the problems with fracking are caused by leaking well casings that haven't been sealed properly. Same with the chemicals in the ponds. If they spent a bit more money and took a bit more care, they'd stop the leaks

My understanding of Fukushima is that they built a nuclear power station in a known fracture zone, despite warnings from senior people. They also built a protective wall that was much lower than the tsunamis they'd had in the past

With it being a relatively new industry, maybe it just needs regulating better?

I read several months back that al qiaida (sp!?) Are looking to target nuclear power plants because of the lasting damage it could cause..

Its quite an unnerving thought what could happen to mainland England if they managed to somehow pull that off....

[OzFox]

With it being a relatively new industry, maybe it just needs regulating better?

I read several months back that al qiaida (sp!?) Are looking to target nuclear power plants because of the lasting damage it could cause..

Its quite an unnerving thought what could happen to mainland England if they managed to somehow pull that off....

 

A bunch of guys were convicted here for plotting to blow up the Lucas Heights reactor about 20 miles out of Sydney. Three of them got picked up on the perimeter, casing the place out. They said they were going trail bike riding, but only had one bike in the back of the car

 

Don't think the government were too worried though. They claim the main danger is public panic and that you'd need an aircraft impact straight into the reactor core to do any damage, and even then there wouldn't be much fallout

[ADK]

I don't see nuclear as particularly safe, it's also not very great from a strategic resources point of view. Very much "all eggs in one basket". Distributed small-scale renewables is surely the way forward.

[DennisNedry]

I don't see nuclear as particularly safe, it's also not very great from a strategic resources point of view. Very much "all eggs in one basket". Distributed small-scale renewables is surely the way forward.

 

Perhaps but the transitional period between fossil fuels to solely renewables is going to take decades, maybe even centuries.

[MPH]

A bunch of guys were convicted here for plotting to blow up the Lucas Heights reactor about 20 miles out of Sydney. Three of them got picked up on the perimeter, casing the place out. They said they were going trail bike riding, but only had one bike in the back of the car

 

Don't think the government were too worried though. They claim the main danger is public panic and that you'd need an aircraft impact straight into the reactor core to do any damage, and even then there wouldn't be much fallout

 

 

seems a bit amateurish!

 

Yeah It's the plane thing that was mentioned about al quaida. And of course they have a history of knowing how to use planes... ( el-empty - hush! ).

[OzFox]

seems a bit amateurish!

 

Yeah It's the plane thing that was mentioned about al quaida. And of course they have a history of knowing how to use planes... ( el-empty - hush! ).

 

  Didn't he say the planes had rocket launchers on the bottom? Overkill even by terrorist standards

 

Think the Sydney reactor is quite old (1950s) so probably not worth blowing up anyway. Maybe they were just going trail bike riding, which would be a bit of a bummer as they all got jail sentences.

[leicsmac]

Perhaps but the transitional period between fossil fuels to solely renewables is going to take decades, maybe even centuries.

 

Depends on how quickly we can research them and if the big energy companies are willing to play ball with the change rather than keeping things just the way they are as it's making money for the present time. 

 

I'm fully willing to believe that the big oil/gas companies hold the patents on many different renewable techs but are suppressing them until we really, really need them in order to make a quick £ when supplies begin to run out and to control the market when the 'miracle new' tech comes in to rescue us all.

 

As an aside, nuclear fusion is very, very safe indeed - no waste, no risk of meltdowns.and no fissionable nuclear material that could be used for bombs.