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Merging Cultures

Kenya Mall Siege

By Merging Cultures, in General Chat

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Finnegan

Finnegan

Posted
Posted

Hope everyone else you know is okay, BaltimoreBlue.

As I mentioned in another thread, I find it despicable that adults were clambering and climbing on children to escape. Just beyond belief and imagination that some people would do that. Children are helpless as it is, let alone being crushed somewhat by an adult. Amidst panic you'd want to flee, but it shouldn't come to a point where you're trampling on children to do so. They should be saved first.

Bit difficult to judge to be honest.

On the surface of it, it sounds awful but if I was in a shopping centre on my own and machine guns started going off I'm pretty sure I'd just cack myself and leg it. I doubt I'd be stopping to help people I didn't know.

And I'd otherwise consider myself pretty helpful. Opening doors, helping prams and wheelchairs on to busses, getting up for old dears on the tube. All that.

But under gunfire? C'mon. Bigger crime being committed here than some people in a panic.

StanSP

StanSP

Posted
Posted

Bit difficult to judge to be honest.

On the surface of it, it sounds awful but if I was in a shopping centre on my own and machine guns started going off I'm pretty sure I'd just cack myself and leg it. I doubt I'd be stopping to help people I didn't know.

And I'd otherwise consider myself pretty helpful. Opening doors, helping prams and wheelchairs on to busses, getting up for old dears on the tube. All that.

But under gunfire? C'mon. Bigger crime being committed here than some people in a panic.

 

I get that there's a massive crime of shooting innocent people other than people being in a panic. Obviously not being in that situation in that moment in time is a different matter - I just can't fathom virtually sacrificing children so to speak to save yourself. Obviously I've never had a machine gun fired at me while I'm in a crowd!

 

The woman who made the claims about the other adults climbing over children said she went to help the children first and save them from gunfire, so it's not totally out of the question.

Finnegan

Finnegan

Posted
Posted

It was her job to help the children, they were her responsibility. If they were people I know I imagine I'd be helping as best I could. But the people "climbing over them" (you don't really know specifics) were strangers, no?

It's not like they were holding up kids as human shields, volunteering them to be shot first as hostages or throwing them at terrorists as projectiles (as fantastic an idea as that is.)

Just pushing by them in a panic. Seriously. If you're cool enough to be heroic in that situation then I hope you're around if ever I'm in the shit. My self preservation instincts are crap but I'm confident I'd wuss out massively if you started shooting at me.

Rincewind

Rincewind

Posted
Posted

I doubt some would be aware of children as their first thought would be to get to safety. If a person is with the children then then it would be different but alone others running past them they would not see others only a big sign in their mind with ALIVE on.

Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted

Bit difficult to judge to be honest.

On the surface of it, it sounds awful but if I was in a shopping centre on my own and machine guns started going off I'm pretty sure I'd just cack myself and leg it. I doubt I'd be stopping to help people I didn't know.

And I'd otherwise consider myself pretty helpful. Opening doors, helping prams and wheelchairs on to busses, getting up for old dears on the tube. All that.

But under gunfire? C'mon. Bigger crime being committed here than some people in a panic.

You can never even try to imagine how you would react in such a situation but I would really hope getting any children near me away from the scene would be my original instinct in such circumstances.

Climbing over them to get out? Never in a million yearst I'd hope, I'd struggle to live with myself after..

Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted

 

“Those are not allegations. Those are f****** truths,†the doctor, a forensics expert, told The Star newspaper. “They removed balls, eyes, ears, nose. They get your hand and sharpen it like a pencil then they tell you to write your name with the blood. They drive knives inside a child’s body. Actually, if you look at all the bodies, unless those ones that were escaping, fingers are cut by pliers, the noses are ripped by pliers.â€

 

Absolutely sickening, they can't even give people a noble and peaceful death in terror.

Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted

It was her job to help the children, they were her responsibility. If they were people I know I imagine I'd be helping as best I could. But the people "climbing over them" (you don't really know specifics) were strangers, no?

It's not like they were holding up kids as human shields, volunteering them to be shot first as hostages or throwing them at terrorists as projectiles (as fantastic an idea as that is.)

Just pushing by them in a panic. Seriously. If you're cool enough to be heroic in that situation then I hope you're around if ever I'm in the shit. My self preservation instincts are crap but I'm confident I'd wuss out massively if you started shooting at me.

 

You can never even try to imagine how you would react in such a situation but I would really hope getting any children near me away from the scene would be my original instinct in such circumstances.

Climbing over them to get out? Never in a million yearst I'd hope, I'd struggle to live with myself after..

 

Following on from this, you never know how you would handle it but I hope and pray in the same situation I'd do this, the only good thing that comes from these is some people get the chance to die a genuine hero. What a bloke this guy is.

 

http://news.sky.com/story/1147429/kenya-attack-briton-died-trying-to-save-kids

 

 

A British man has been hailed a hero after he was killed in the Kenyan shopping mall massacre while trying to save children taking part in a TV cooking competition.

Mitul Shah, 38, offered himself as a hostage to help 33 youngsters escape from the rooftop of the Westgate Shopping Centre in Nairobi, where the programme was being filmed.

His bravery is thought to have given the young victims precious seconds to flee and hide, although he was unable to convince the gunmen to agree to his offer and he and a number of children were shot dead.

The father-of-one's funeral was held in Nairobi on Thursday, with a notice posted on his company's Facebook page referring to him as a "hero and a star".

bovril

bovril

Posted
Posted

I found that very hard to read. The kind of evil that would drive somebody to do this is just incomprehensible. I literally cannot quantify the hatred it takes to do this to fellow human beings. It must be more than religion.

leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted

I found that very hard to read. The kind of evil that would drive somebody to do this is just incomprehensible. I literally cannot quantify the hatred it takes to do this to fellow human beings. It must be more than religion.

 

Some people are conditioned to believe that life is cheap, and killing is an ideal way to get what you want. You're right, it's not only religion that does this - there's so many examples in history of people carrying out barbaric acts for a variety of ideologies. The Rwandan genocide is one example that jumps to mind immediately.

 

I don't think it actually comes down to hate with many of them, it just comes down to a kind of indifference - they see certain other people as less than human, and that gives them their perverted justification for carrying out horrifying acts like this.

bovril

bovril

Posted
Posted

Some people are conditioned to believe that life is cheap, and killing is an ideal way to get what you want. You're right, it's not only religion that does this - there's so many examples in history of people carrying out barbaric acts for a variety of ideologies. The Rwandan genocide is one example that jumps to mind immediately.

 

I don't think it actually comes down to hate with many of them, it just comes down to a kind of indifference - they see certain other people as less than human, and that gives them their perverted justification for carrying out horrifying acts like this.

 

You're probably right and I would have agreed with you in the past. But the torture, mutilation, the method of killing - this is blood lust, not indifference. To want to inflict that kind of suffering on someone... I honestly can't get my head round it. I never really believed in such things as 'good' and 'evil' but things like this happen and you do wonder......

MooseBreath

MooseBreath

Posted
Posted

We talked about western forces intervening when chemical weapons were used in Syria. Would people be for or against western forces taking out al-shabaab now after this? Thinking simplistically of course, would you support it?

leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted

You're probably right and I would have agreed with you in the past. But the torture, mutilation, the method of killing - this is blood lust, not indifference. To want to inflict that kind of suffering on someone... I honestly can't get my head round it. I never really believed in such things as 'good' and 'evil' but things like this happen and you do wonder......

 

With some of them it could well be genuine hatred, but I do think that for some of them it's like a boy pulling the wings off a fly and watching it writhe. They simply don't see other humans as human, and so they do these things to them purely for the kicks, and because it's the easiest way to get what they want. 

 

I think that "good" and "evil" are names for what people do, not what they are. No one is born to be either...they or others make themselves that way. There's always a choice.

MooseBreath

MooseBreath

Posted
Posted

With some of them it could well be genuine hatred, but I do think that for some of them it's like a boy pulling the wings off a fly and watching it writhe. They simply don't see other humans as human, and so they do these things to them purely for the kicks, and because it's the easiest way to get what they want.

Are you really trying to rationalise this?

leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted

Are you really trying to rationalise this?

 

Hell no! They're fvcked up in the head and deserve a cruel and unusual death.

 

What I'm saying is that often it's not hatred that drives these people, but just indifference to certain other humans. Which in a way is worse, because hatred normally has a solid reason behind it whereas indifference is..."oh yeah, those infidels are not human. Let's just kill them."

MooseBreath

MooseBreath

Posted
Posted

Hell no! They're fvcked up in the head and deserve a cruel and unusual death.

What I'm saying is that often it's not hatred that drives these people, but just indifference to certain other humans. Which in a way is worse, because hatred normally has a solid reason behind it whereas indifference is..."oh yeah, those infidels are not human. Let's just kill them."

I think it was you who described using the word 'evil' as "immature" the other day. I still don't really understand where you were coming from with that. It seems like the perfect word to describe these people to me.

leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted

I think it was you who described using the word 'evil' as "immature" the other day. I still don't really understand where you were coming from with that. It seems like the perfect word to describe these people to me.

 

I've got no problem with using the terms 'good' and 'evil' in terms of deeds. This for instance is very, very evil and whatever other adjectives you care to name.

 

I take issue however with defining people as 'evil' or 'good' absolutely because it implies they have no control over their actions and their life is set. As I said above, always a choice.

leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted

 

Men (and I use that term very, very loosely) like these are the real problem. They choose not only to back acts of evil, but also to convince others to do the same, purely for self-gratification because of their own perverted interpretation of a religious text. 

 

It's unfortunate that present legal systems in a variety of countries seem to be inadequate to deal with these people, and their own communities are often too scared or too indifferent to take matters into their own hands.

ADK

ADK

Posted
Posted

I'd have difficulty keeping my cool coming to face to face with someone like that, really it is quite disgusting how they operate, getting hold of kids when they are young and brainwashing them with hatred.

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