The European Union

[Strokes]

We have discussed this within other threads, i would like to know your opinions on Union and a vote to see how the general foxes fans feel.

[Guest MattP]

Out.

 

Good idea at the start as a common market with strong nations but freedom of movement was always going to be dreadful for our own low paid/unemployed as soon as we entered into teh agreement with countries that have a weekly basic wage less than ours in a month.

 

Add that to people making decisions on our country who are unelected by us, the absolute gravy train the whole thing has become for politicians and the carnage they have caused people all across the continent with the single currency (thank god the Lib Dems werent in power here) and it's a out from me.

 

The only people who seem to be benefitting from this project are the rich who can employ more cheap labour while the poor continue to get fcuked over.

[Strokes]

Out.

 

Good idea at the start as a common market with strong nations but freedom of movement was always going to be dreadful for our own low paid/unemployed as soon as we entered into teh agreement with countries that have a weekly basic wage less than ours in a month.

 

Add that to people making decisions on our country who are unelected by us, the absolute gravy train the whole thing has become for politicians and the carnage they have caused people all across the continent with the single currency (thank god the Lib Dems werent in power here) and it's a out from me.

 

The only people who seem to be benefitting from this project are the rich who can employ more cheap labour while the poor continue to get fcuked over.

I do find it bizare that Europe in its design is very right wing methology, yet it seems to be the right that are more anti than the left. The only reason i can think for a leftie to like the EU is to be seen to be open minded.

[lavrentis]

Get the **** out.

[purpleronnie]

Very much IN.

[hairy]

Out.

 

Good idea at the start as a common market with strong nations but freedom of movement was always going to be dreadful for our own low paid/unemployed as soon as we entered into teh agreement with countries that have a weekly basic wage less than ours in a month.

 

Add that to people making decisions on our country who are unelected by us, the absolute gravy train the whole thing has become for politicians and the carnage they have caused people all across the continent with the single currency (thank god the Lib Dems werent in power here) and it's a out from me.

 

The only people who seem to be benefitting from this project are the rich who can employ more cheap labour while the poor continue to get fcuked over.

 

So that's the Tories who obviously weren't voted in by the people of the UK at the last election.

 

There is obvious strength in unity within Europe. The problem is more where Europe stops.

 

I studied the EU for a couple of years and cannot see there being one good argument for us not being in it. I think the problem the xenphobes will highlight is the free movement of people, which Labour could have cured but didn't.

[Guest MattP]

I do find it bizare that Europe in its design is very right wing methology, yet it seems to be the right that are more anti than the left. The only reason i can think for a leftie to like the EU is to be seen to be open minded.

 

I generally think a lot of lefties these days support the EU purely on the fact that they can't even risk the thought of alligning themselves with UKIP/Tory right viewpoint without even actually thinking about the politics of the situation.

 

You have millionaire factory owners openly admitting they can buy a few more cheap Villas because of the cheap labour they can now hire and people like Rincewind actually supporting this stuff as he doesnt want to be seen as a bigot, its laughable at times.

 

I am fully of the opinion now anyone who supports this monstrosity of evil and corruption can never generally be thought of as someone who cares for the lower end of society given the misery it has caused the poorest people across the continent. (And no I'm not saying I care about them either, I want us out for other reasons as well as that)

[MooseBreath]

My economic liberal side is quite happy for British businesses to benefit from cheap labour and the societal problems caused by importing the third world can be avoided by just not going into any poverty areas.

My social liberal side recognises the devastation caused by this continuing giant wave of imported underclass and really feels for the british people crushed underneath through no fault of their own.

I think the best case for all though is if Cameron renegotiates our position so we take back some control and then we stay in. That way we get the best of both worlds.

[lavrentis]

Barroso has said himself there is no room for negotiation so it's either in as it currently is or out.

 

Take control of our own borders, create our own laws and have elected officials.

 

Strength in diversity is what makes Europe great, the EU is damaging this.

[Guest MattP]

So that's the Tories who obviously weren't voted in by the people of the UK at the last election.

 

There is obvious strength in unity within Europe. The problem is more where Europe stops.

 

I studied the EU for a couple of years and cannot see there being one good argument for us not being in it. I think the problem the xenphobes will highlight is the free movement of people, which Labour could have cured but didn't.

 

Well yes, hence why they had to rope in the Lib Dems for a coalition.

 

6 posts in and xenophobia is mentioned, 4 posts longer than I thought.

[MooseBreath]

Barroso has said himself there is no room for negotiation so it's either in as it currently is or out.

Take control of our own borders, create our own laws and have elected officials.

Strength in diversity is what makes Europe great, the EU is damaging this.

There will be room for negotiation. The EU isn't going to want to lose the country that is on track to become the biggesrteconomy in Europe within a couple of years over some disagreement over eastern european labourers.

[Guest MattP]

Peter Mandelson spent four years in the EU and wil pick up a 31k a year pension that would cost £550k to buy privately.

 

Just look at this, talk about fascism

 

 

Lord Mandelson is entitled to the cash because he was the EU's trade commissioner from November 2004 to the middle of last year.

Under the terms of the deal, he will receive an index-linked pension of £31,000 a year when he turns 65. The cost of buying such a deal on the private market would be £550,000.

 

This is in addition to more than £234,000 of "top-up" salary payments and a £15,000 resettlement fee which he will receive over the next three years.

However, European Union rules show that if he speaks out against Europe as a former Commissioner he could be stripped of his pension altogether.

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/4996440/Lord-Mandelson-must-remain-loyal-to-EU-to-guarantee-pension.html

 

I don't think a bigger gravy train has ever existed in politics, to think the same people who got annoyed with our own politicians in the expenses scandal will actually vote to continue to support and pay tax for this

[MooseBreath]

Well yes, hence why they had to rope in the Lib Dems for a coalition.

6 posts in and xenophobia is mentioned, 4 posts longer than I thought.

If you don't like the idea of the british services you paid for being overloaded by immigrants who have never contributed anything then you obviously hate immigrants and are therefore definitely a racist, xenophobic bigoted homophobe misogynistic cvnt. Fact.

[bovril]

The absortion of Eastern European countries has more to do with geopolitics than cheap labour. We supported expansion in order to dilute German influence and the US / NATO was keen to get them onside as soon as Communism collapsed. See the Ukraine over the last few months.
I think the immigration issue is worth discussing but considering the majority of immigrants are from outside the EU I don't understand why people believe the only foreigners in the UK are Eastern European (head / sand springs to mind).

Having said all that I becoming increasingly sceptical about the whole thing, especially after the recent events in Kiev.

[Strokes]

If you don't like the idea of the british services you paid for being overloaded by immigrants who have never contributed anything then you obviously hate immigrants and are therefore definitely a racist, xenophobic bigoted homophobe misogynistic cvnt. Fact.

If you just hate everyone, surely you are none of the above

[Captain...]

In, this is not because of some lefty idelogy, I think there are many flaws within the EU, but as a principle and as a way of going forward we need to work closer with the rest of Europe, and the rest of the world. We live in a global age where you can do business with someone in China as easily as Birmingham.

 

But we also need to protect our own rights, so we need a strong government and strong MEPs and people looking to work with the EU but not against Britain. We also need to defy the EU whilst still being a member, a case in point being the bombardier train contract fiasco, where the government stated it was forced by the EU competition rules to give the contract to Siemens, because they tendered a lower bid. Which is bollocks, it is either a weak government too scared to bend the rules a little, and yet brave enough to call a referendum on Europe. Or a weak Government using the EU as an excuse for its own failings or just more political point scoring at the expense of this country.

 

The EU is often used as a scapegoat, but we still largely have control over what goes on in this country, especially as we stayed out the euro, and we have to take the blame for the mess we got in ourselves. We have already established that to keep on growing financially we need an influx of workers and population, ok without the EU we would have a greater control, but we were hardly water tight before the EU.

 

Do we know what the proposals are for immigration if we leave the EU? Are we going to start sending people back? If immigration is the issue, what would be the most likely proposed solution? That people would only be allowed in if they had jobs lined up? Considering the proportion of EU immigrants here not working is tiny, then that is going to make fvck all difference. Are we going to have a 1 in 1 out policy? Do you have any idea how difficult and costly that would be to maintain, and regulate, we have already established we need population growth to sustain financial growth, and until the EU expands any further and the tide of Romanians and Bulgarians never materialised, I think that at the moment it is not a big problem.

 

Until anyone can say what the impact, on immigration, freedom of work, trade agreements, what the actual cost and financial benefit would be on leaving the EU, I don't know how anyone can say they want out when there currently isn't an alternative, if you think that leaving the EU is going to solve all of our problems overnight, then you are very much mistaken, it is going to create a whole raft of new ones.

[ADK]

There are many good things about the EU but it does face huge challenges.

 

I wouldn't want us to leave the EU at this point.

[ADK]

Immigration is a separate issue.

[Strokes]

Immigration is a separate issue.

I don't see why it is a seperate issue, the two things are very much entwined.

[davieG]

It's hard to know because apart from the usual pointless fact free/contradicted medfia headlines from those wanting in or out there's really no guaranteed truth on which to base an opinion.

 

As for having a referendum on it based on the above and the majority of the public's 'Britain's got talent' voting mentality I doubt whether there's much credibility to the result. 

[Webbo]

On the fence. If the referendum was tomorrow I'd vote out. It's undemocratic, bureaucratic and is heading towards a Social Democratic United States of Europe which I want no part of.

 

If the PM can negotiate a much looser confederation with countries making their own decisions on everything apart from trade I'd vote to stay in. I'm not hopeful though. 

[ADK]

I don't see why it is a seperate issue, the two things are very much entwined.

 

There's more about "immigration" than the EU freedom of movement of labour. Leaving the EU wouldn't get rid of all immigration and I don't think it would solve all the countries woes. They are somewhat entwined I agree but it is still a separate issue.

[Guest MattP]

There's more about "immigration" than the EU freedom of movement of labour. Leaving the EU wouldn't get rid of all immigration and I don't think it would solve all the countries woes. They are somewhat entwined I agree but it is still a separate issue.

 

People don't want to "get rid of all immigration" - they want to have control over who and what comes into the country though. Even more so when we have high youth/unskilled unemployment rates.

[ADK]

People don't want to "get rid of all immigration" - they want to have control over who and what comes into the country though. Even more so when we have high youth/unskilled unemployment rates.

 

Yes, I'm one of those people. But it is only a part of the question about leaving the EU. It's not just an EU problem. We import immigrants from all over the world. Many professions are fuelled by immigration, doctors for example. It's not impossible for us to control our borders and still be in the EU. If the government really wanted to impose a cap or some other restriction I highly doubt we'd be kicked out of the EU. The conservatives don't want to control immigration, we both know that.

[Webbo]

Yes, I'm one of those people. But it is only a part of the question about leaving the EU. It's not just an EU problem. We import immigrants from all over the world. Many professions are fuelled by immigration, doctors for example. It's not impossible for us to control our borders and still be in the EU. If the government really wanted to impose a cap or some other restriction I highly doubt we'd be kicked out of the EU. The conservatives don't want to control immigration, we both know that.

Barroso said on the Andrew Marr show recently that we wouldn't be allowed to restrict freedom of movement. This isn't a Tory plot, they are the rules.