The European Union

[ADK]

Barroso said on the Andrew Marr show recently that we wouldn't be allowed to restrict freedom of movement. This isn't a Tory plot, they are the rules.

 

The more I think about it the freedom of movement is more of a smokescreen to obscure the lack of investment in British people.

[Steven]

The more I think about it the freedom of movement is more of a smokescreen to obscure the lack of investment in British people.

Of course it is. The EU and UK allow thousands of Indians to come and work in Europe in IT rather than spend money on training people. All the freedom of movement in Europe has enabled is poor and chaotic management across Europe.

[MC Prussian]

At the moment, I don't see what individual nations could take away from joining the European Union. Hence the "No".

A united Europe was once the vision of a peace-keeping mission to bring the two former war mongers Germany and France together again.

 

I support the notion of a European Trade Union, the EU's older brother so to speak, but cannot endorse a new European behemoth in the form of a European parliament with hundreds, if not thousands of delegates with their own interests.

How can Europe as a whole move forward with such an apparatus?

How can you avoid politicians simply getting elected for prestige reasons, not caring one bit about Europe and/or their respective country? (Not that it's happened on a national level before, mind you)

This relatively new construct has its evident flaws, it's already using separate standards for different countries and it will take years, if not decades for the processes and protocols to work smoothly.

Until then, scandals and financial mismanagement will remain the norm.

 

The way they fooled Europe to accept a bankrupt Greece into the union, their shadowy interest in the Ukraine as a new member, the EU's treatment of Denmark, after the Scandinavians restored border control in 2011, its inherent corruption potential, the fact that they've now forced the member states to accept genetically-enhanced corn (even though the population in general is against it)… It doesn't strike me as a very "democratic" union. Democratic for some, but the rest is made to pay.

 

Free movement of labour, however, undermines one country's sovereign rights to set and/or maintain its own income standards.

Specialists and highly-skilled labour are only maneuver mass for the economy, ready to be employed wherever the labour costs are low enough.

Somebody please explain to me how individuals are going to profit from that when companies continue to extort their workforce, exchanging older people with new, cheaper ones in an endless cycle.

How can that result in a steady or increasing standard of living?

 

All of this coming from someone who considers himself centre-left, btw. I do like a united Europe, yet the EU does not fill me with a lot of confidence.

[The God Emperor]

like the trade and freedom of movement, hate all the self serving bureaucracy, regulations and gravy train for politicians. I'm on the fence but if I had a gun to my head I'd vote to stay in and fight to get some reforms through. If its true that we're going to become the European economic super power than that would give us a good footing to start negotiating to keep the good and drop the bad.

[l444ry]

Out....,The whole EU thing is totally undemocratic. Just a shame that the debate is trivialised by the raving right away from this fundamental into knocking Johnny Foreigner instead.  

[Guest MattP]

Out....,The whole EU thing is totally undemocratic. Just a shame that the debate is trivialised by the raving right away from this fundamental into knocking Johnny Foreigner instead.  

 

To be fair, the "pro EU left" (fortunately a group that appears to be losing support mind) are quite happy to do exactly the same to ensure instead of real debate it looks like the whole anti-EU mob are of a far-right mould.

[MC Prussian]

Of course it is. The EU and UK allow thousands of Indians to come and work in Europe in IT rather than spend money on training people. All the freedom of movement in Europe has enabled is poor and chaotic management across Europe.

It's easier and more convenient to have countries like India invest in their IT personnel, then hire them for cheap, shift them across the globe for a few years, only to replace them with the new crop.

All of this whilst education and training investment on the domestic workforce in the EU countries will continue to dwindle in comparison.

 

It has to be said though that local businesses don't have enough of their own incentive to train their own people first, too.

This is, again, down to cost factors and domestic workers simply being too expensive with and after training.

If you want to remain competitive on the (global) market and maintain a healthy dividend each year, there's hardly another way out of that vicious cycle.

 

And some employees, yes some, simply don't want to progress in terms of job skills or job education and are happy with where they are.

[Captain...]

Can someone please explain this undemocratic stick that people have started to beat the EU with, that has only surfaced since the UKIPs started banging on about it.

 

By this I mean I want someone to explain in what way it is any more undemocratic than any other legislative body, such as our own. Democracy these days is really just the illusion of having a voice, more so in this country than many others, at least the EP is elected on a PR basis rather than our FPP nonsense, just because the UKIPs choice not to exercise their democratic right to vote on EU policy doesn't mean it isn't democratic. You can't bleat on about it being undemocratic when all EU legislation needs to be voted on by a parliament made of MEPs elected by the people of the member states (us), just because you don't agree with the outcome.

[l444ry]

To be fair, the "pro EU left" (fortunately a group that appears to be losing support mind) are quite happy to do exactly the same to ensure instead of real debate it looks like the whole anti-EU mob are of a far-right mould.

 

Agree to some extent Matt. The EU debate splits both main political groupings to be fair. Left and Right aren't particularly useful terms in this debate. For instance, to use Tony Blair's shower as "left-wing" would be laughable. His lot were more right-wing than Thatcher's bunch. Don't forget that Tony Benn and Enoch Powell were both on the same side in the original Common Market referendum. 

[Webbo]

Can someone please explain this undemocratic stick that people have started to beat the EU with, that has only surfaced since the UKIPs started banging on about it.

 

By this I mean I want someone to explain in what way it is any more undemocratic than any other legislative body, such as our own. Democracy these days is really just the illusion of having a voice, more so in this country than many others, at least the EP is elected on a PR basis rather than our FPP nonsense, just because the UKIPs choice not to exercise their democratic right to vote on EU policy doesn't mean it isn't democratic. You can't bleat on about it being undemocratic when all EU legislation needs to be voted on by a parliament made of MEPs elected by the people of the member states (us), just because you don't agree with the outcome.

Did you vote for the president of the commission? Can you vote him out? What about all the other commissioners?

 

When Ireland, France and Denmark voted against treaties was that vote accepted or were they forced to take another referendum until they got the right answer?

[ADK]

The commissioner is elected by the MEP's who you can vote on. It's not dissimilar to the way local councils are run.

[ADK]

The bit I like about the EU is how it allows us to pool research funds with other member states and pool skills. This allows us to compete in industries like aerospace with large economies like the USA and China. EU wide regulations have improved other industries like the automotive industry imo.

[Guest MattP]

Can someone please explain this undemocratic stick that people have started to beat the EU with, that has only surfaced since the UKIPs started banging on about it.

 

By this I mean I want someone to explain in what way it is any more undemocratic than any other legislative body, such as our own. Democracy these days is really just the illusion of having a voice, more so in this country than many others, at least the EP is elected on a PR basis rather than our FPP nonsense, just because the UKIPs choice not to exercise their democratic right to vote on EU policy doesn't mean it isn't democratic. You can't bleat on about it being undemocratic when all EU legislation needs to be voted on by a parliament made of MEPs elected by the people of the member states (us), just because you don't agree with the outcome.

 

After the next round of EU elections and and they dont get the results they want I fully expect them to try and go to FPTP to get the Eurosceptics out

 

Yes, we can't vote out the leaders for a start. People who have nothing to do with my nation now make decisions on it despite the fact they don't live or work here.

 

The real nastiness comes in the treaties though, when countries have turned down the chance to join (ie Ireland) then they send back the voters to the polls until they get the right answer, will you get another ref a year after voting yes? Of course not, you only get another one if you have voted no. That was appalling.

 

We wont even get into the puppets they put into Greece and Italy to overrule the people that country elected.

 

Barroso has always shown his contempt for democracy, it was him who said "Decisions taken by the most democratic institutions in the world are very often wrong" along with taking his country into the Iraq war despite his own parliament voting against it, he is perfect for the EU.

 

Agree to some extent Matt. The EU debate splits both main political groupings to be fair. Left and Right aren't particularly useful terms in this debate. For instance, to use Tony Blair's shower as "left-wing" would be laughable. His lot were more right-wing than Thatcher's bunch. Don't forget that Tony Benn and Enoch Powell were both on the same side in the original Common Market referendum. 

 

I agree.

 

I've always found it baffling how the positions of both the Tories and Labour have changed over time on this.

[Rincewind]

On. The fence but leaning towards in because I don't think UK can survive on their own.

[Guest MattP]

On. The fence but leaning towards in because I don't think UK can survive on their own.

 

We didn't seem to do too bad between 1700 and 1980 odd.

[Captain...]

After the next round of EU elections and and they dont get the results they want I fully expect them to try and go to FPTP to get the Eurosceptics out

 

Yes, we can't vote out the leaders for a start. People who have nothing to do with my nation now make decisions on it despite the fact they don't live or work here.

 

The real nastiness comes in the treaties though, when countries have turned down the chance to join (ie Ireland) then they send back the voters to the polls until they get the right answer, will you get another ref a year after voting yes? Of course not, you only get another one if you have voted no. That was appalling.

 

We wont even get into the puppets they put into Greece and Italy to overrule the people that country elected.

 

Barroso has always shown his contempt for democracy, it was him who said "Decisions taken by the most democratic institutions in the world are very often wrong" along with taking his country into the Iraq war despite his own parliament voting against it, he is perfect for the EU.

 

 

Regarding not being able to vote out leaders, we can't vote out the leaders of any of our political parties, or for the Speaker of the Commons, or the Leader of the house of Lords, this is my point about it not being any more undemocratic than any other political body.

 

Re: the Treaties, didn't they make changes to it before sending people back to the polls, and didn't we not even bother having a referendum on it, or am I getting confused with other treaties, but still that is an undemocratic decision taken by member states to ratify the EU treaty rather than the EU. Can't really call the EU undemocratic because of the undemocratic actions of our and other governments.

 

It is as democratic as our system of governance, probably even more so when you look at the House of Lords. Of course there are certain processes that can be called undemocratic, but that is the same everywhere. It just seems an odd stick to beat them with when pretty much every person involved has been elected into power at some point, it's a largely baseless criticism that has just been picked up on and keeps being trotted out.

[Guest MattP]

Regarding not being able to vote out leaders, we can't vote out the leaders of any of our political parties, or for the Speaker of the Commons, or the Leader of the house of Lords, this is my point about it not being any more undemocratic than any other political body.

 

Re: the Treaties, didn't they make changes to it before sending people back to the polls, and didn't we not even bother having a referendum on it, or am I getting confused with other treaties, but still that is an undemocratic decision taken by member states to ratify the EU treaty rather than the EU. Can't really call the EU undemocratic because of the undemocratic actions of our and other governments.

 

It is as democratic as our system of governance, probably even more so when you look at the House of Lords. Of course there are certain processes that can be called undemocratic, but that is the same everywhere. It just seems an odd stick to beat them with when pretty much every person involved has been elected into power at some point, it's a largely baseless criticism that has just been picked up on and keeps being trotted out.

 

But in reality you actually can can't you?

 

I mean we couldn't stop Brown becoming leader of course and PM, but at least we know within 5 years that we can (and we did) give a resounding message that he wasn't wanted by the people and he was sent packing. How can you say that's as democratic as our system" - it clearly isn't.

 

Let me know how the British people (or european) can do that to Van Rumpey or Barroso.

 

I'm referring to the Lisbon treaty, which the Irish voters rejected, then the EU sent it back, had they voted no again I'm sure they would have done so again, and so on until they get the answer they want. They dont these back for another referendum after a "yes" why is that?

 

Agree on House of Lords,

[Captain...]

But in reality you actually can can't you?

 

I mean we couldn't stop Brown becoming leader of course and PM, but at least we know within 5 years that we can (and we did) give a resounding message that he wasn't wanted by the people and he was sent packing. How can you say that's as democratic as our system" - it clearly isn't.

 

Let me know how the British people (or european) can do that to Van Rumpey or Barroso.

 

I'm referring to the Lisbon treaty, which the Irish voters rejected, then the EU sent it back, had they voted no again I'm sure they would have done so again, and so on until they get the answer they want. They dont these back for another referendum after a "yes" why is that?

 

Agree on House of Lords,

 

With regard Barroso, we can't directly get rid of him, but the European parliament can, which is directly voted for by us, so it represents the views of the people (when the MEPs turn up). If every decision was voted on by the people of every member state then nothing would ever get done. The make up of the commission is decided by people we directly elect. It is not undemocratic.

 

The president of the European Council is voted for by the European Council, which is made up of democratically elected heads of state, we voted for Cameron (sort of), to speak on our behalf so his vote on the presidency of the European council is ours. I don't see how it can be called undemocratic, we elect officials to make decisions like this for us.

[Bryn]

Democracy is the art of making everyone unhappy.

[Guest MattP]

With regard Barroso, we can't directly get rid of him, but the European parliament can, which is directly voted for by us, so it represents the views of the people (when the MEPs turn up). If every decision was voted on by the people of every member state then nothing would ever get done. The make up of the commission is decided by people we directly elect. It is not undemocratic.

 

The president of the European Council is voted for by the European Council, which is made up of democratically elected heads of state, we voted for Cameron (sort of), to speak on our behalf so his vote on the presidency of the European council is ours. I don't see how it can be called undemocratic, we elect officials to make decisions like this for us.

 

Cameron voted for Van Rumpey? Errr how?

 

Presuming the fact you didn't respond to the Lisbon treaty farce shows you do actually think the way the EU approaches things like that is undemocratic though? Or immoral at the very least? Don't you think it was better when we had rotating presidents though rather than the permanent position based on the representation in the actual parliament?

 

I'll be honest, big Nigel puts it far better than I do.

 

[MC Prussian]

Democracy is the art of making everyone unhappy.

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those others that have been tried."

[purpleronnie]

Cameron voted for Van Rumpey? Errr how?

 

Presuming the fact you didn't respond to the Lisbon treaty farce shows you do actually think the way the EU approaches things like that is undemocratic though? Or immoral at the very least? Don't you think it was better when we had rotating presidents though rather than the permanent position based on the representation in the actual parliament?

 

I'll be honest, big Nigel puts it far better than I do.

 

he's just got one of those faces that makes you angry.  But then I read UKIP's policies and I have to laugh.

[I am Rod Hull]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9559937/Vclav-Klaus-warns-that-the-destruction-of-Europes-democracy-may-be-in-its-final-phase.html

[SMX11]

Don't understand the notion of we can't survive on our own. Frankly being a part of the EU narrows our trading opportunities and signs us up to things which clearly go against our nations principles and interests. I think the pro EU side need to come up with some genuine arguments to even make me re consider. The 3 million jobs thing is just a load of tosh. You don't need to be in a political structure to trade with eachother.

[LJS]

Cameron voted for Van Rumpey? Errr how?

Cameron voted for van Rumpuy to have a second term as President of the European Council in 2012. The position is elected by heads of state of each EU member nation and the vote was unanimous. Brown was amongst those who voted for him initially in 2008.

They both did so as our elected representatives on the Council. It's no less democratic than MPs for a particular UK party electing a party leader who can then become PM. Just an extension of representative democracy.