MC Prussian Posted 12 March 2014 Posted 12 March 2014 Yet Italy, who have done much better than Uruguay at the World Cup, only have 1 European Championship. Donut's point proves that it's still easier for small nations to win trophies at a European Championship level than it is during a World Cup. And Uruguay, who have done much worse than Italy at the World Cup, have 15 Copa América titles.
kingcarr21 Posted 13 March 2014 Posted 13 March 2014 Ive been away couple of days and i come back to see the debate has continued. Makes for funny reading.
Dan Posted 13 March 2014 Posted 13 March 2014 I don't get why people are banging on about England historically as if it's anything to do with how good we are now. Bilo's post about us under-achieving summed it all up. There is absolutely no reason England as a footballing nation shouldn't be capable of producing a team that are one of the genuine contenders to win tournaments.
Uncle Albert Posted 13 March 2014 Posted 13 March 2014 At least with my points there is some basis behind them, Pride of the Midlands, you are just talking absolute bollocks. I've never said England are better than any of these nations you all keep discussing, funny how Prussian is in here giving it all his garbage but nobody has ever mentioned his great nation Switzerland, oh wait they beat Spain 4 years ago at the World Cup. England aren't great, with the right man in charge I do think we have a good future, we have a lot of talent coming through and coached right then we have the potential to be a force in the future. My only argument is that Italy are no better than us, nothing has changed my opinion and nothing I say will change a few of yours.
Manwell Pablo Posted 13 March 2014 Posted 13 March 2014 Well Uruguay have 15 so it's not impossible that we would have 20. The Euros is much harder to win than the Copa America btw. Paraguay got to the final without winning a game It's possible to get to any major final without winning a game if you don't count pen victories you goon. Even the World Cup And the fact we MAY have won several Copa Americas 100 years ago it totally irrelevant as the discussion is clearly about the strength of the competition in the modern day, totally irrelevant like a lot of your arguments.
Manwell Pablo Posted 13 March 2014 Posted 13 March 2014 Lugano hasn't fitted in anywhere for a while. There's a nasty inverse snobbery towards the England team. We've got an ok squad, so have Uruguay. Our strength compared to theirs (somewhat obviously given we have 15x the population) lies in the fact we have a lot of solid 6-7/10 players. Uruguay have two world class forwards who on their day can make the difference. Beyond that they've not got more than a couple of players who'd get in the England side. Italy are a different proposition, if you were to make a composite XI I doubt you'd get more than 3 England players in there and 2 of them would be centre forwards who looked like they'd never met each other when they played together last week. I totally and utterly disagree with that, Cristian Rodregiuez, Maxi Perrira, Diego Godin and Walter Gargano would (or at least should) get in our team. That's 6/11 in favor of Uruguay and their better players aren't a little bit better than ours like Italys, their streets ahead, they have a genuine World Class threat in their strike force that is going to give the best teams in the tournament a problem never mind us. It's not inverse snobbery, we aren't as good as we were, and we've been handed a stinking group, for me, and most others, on paper, we're third favorites, had we got France's group I'd be expecting a knockout place. Claiming we're better than Italy, saying we should be beating Uruguay is just ignorant to the class they have and the conditions we're going to play these games in. I am not saying it is impossible for us to get out of the group, who knows we could even get 9 points, but if I were a betting man, I'd be betting against. I'll still be watching both games hoping we can win and it wouldn't surprise one or even both games are tight but this is going to be a massive test and I don't think we're up to task on this occasion.
Finnegan Posted 13 March 2014 Posted 13 March 2014 The only thing I'd say in defence of the Uruguay sceptics, isn't Cavani about as potent for his national side as Rooney? It's my understanding he's very much at his best playing club football. Whilst he's obviously very good, he's largely been playing his trade in two fairly average European leagues.
Manwell Pablo Posted 13 March 2014 Posted 13 March 2014 The only thing I'd say in defence of the Uruguay sceptics, isn't Cavani about as potent for his national side as Rooney? It's my understanding he's very much at his best playing club football. Whilst he's obviously very good, he's largely been playing his trade in two fairly average European leagues. I'd still consider Italy the fourth strongest league in the world myself so I'd hesitate when calling it average. His record's ok nothing sparkling, whenever I've seen him he's played well though and it's international football and as it's been mentioned Uruguay play some tough teams on their continent. In any case my problem is so much Wayne Rooney playing for England it's Wayne Rooney at major tournaments. Especially World Cups.
Dan Posted 13 March 2014 Posted 13 March 2014 Rooney's got to do it sooner or later. He's been unlucky but that doesn't excuse looking bang average most of the time. I fancy him to bag this time around. I still maintain if we somehow managed to get Sturridge and Rooney playing together up front with some form of understanding then we pose a threat to anyone just like Uruguay do. I don't think they're at the standard of Suarez/Cavani but they can definitely give people a scare. Do I have faith in Hodgson to do that? Being the defensive manager he is, a resounding 'no'.
Uncle Albert Posted 13 March 2014 Posted 13 March 2014 England fans and the English media pinning all our hopes on Wayne Rooney before every major tournament hasn't helped him, the only time he hasn't been the hope of the nation was Euro 2004 and that was because he was a bit of an unknown and we were in the Beckham/Owen stardom. It's tough on Rooney, obviously he doesn't ask for the tag of being the saviour but in the same breath he has to be delivering good performances on the big stage, which he hasn't. 2006 he was injured and only looked back to fitness v Portugal when he got sent off, 2008 England weren't there, 2010 disaster and 2012 he was banned for the first two games, it doesn't look great on the big stage. Worrying thing in them tournaments England have never subbed Rooney unless he has been injured (2004), played full games in all the other games, when it isn't working previous managers have been forced to keep Rooney on, for what reason I don't know. Sometimes England look better without Rooney, Denmark for an example. When things aren't going well for England and we're struggling to get the ball up to Rooney, he'll come to deep and start looking for the ball, completely kills are gameplan, style and formation because Wayne Rooney thinks and has drubbed in his head he is Mr. England.
Dan Posted 13 March 2014 Posted 13 March 2014 Well what do you know, I happen to agree with nearly all of that.
kingcarr21 Posted 13 March 2014 Posted 13 March 2014 England fans and the English media pinning all our hopes on Wayne Rooney before every major tournament hasn't helped him, the only time he hasn't been the hope of the nation was Euro 2004 and that was because he was a bit of an unknown and we were in the Beckham/Owen stardom. It's tough on Rooney, obviously he doesn't ask for the tag of being the saviour but in the same breath he has to be delivering good performances on the big stage, which he hasn't. 2006 he was injured and only looked back to fitness v Portugal when he got sent off, 2008 England weren't there, 2010 disaster and 2012 he was banned for the first two games, it doesn't look great on the big stage. Worrying thing in them tournaments England have never subbed Rooney unless he has been injured (2004), played full games in all the other games, when it isn't working previous managers have been forced to keep Rooney on, for what reason I don't know. Sometimes England look better without Rooney, Denmark for an example. When things aren't going well for England and we're struggling to get the ball up to Rooney, he'll come to deep and start looking for the ball, completely kills are gameplan, style and formation because Wayne Rooney thinks and has drubbed in his head he is Mr. England. A very good point. Maybe a Rooney with no pressure (I believe most England fans would accept its not a certainty that we will get out the group) could put in a few good performances, But if its not working then managers need to be brave and sub him off. Unfortunately it comes down if he was subbed and we eventually lost then the media would slaughter Hodgson for subbing our 'best player' so cant ever see this happening at a tournament. We certainly looked a better team against Denmark when Rooney went off so i hope Hodgson will keep this in mind and not be afraid to change it at the big stage.
Stadt Posted 13 March 2014 Posted 13 March 2014 When Rooney plays it's almost like at a training session where everybody's got to touch the ball before you can score except for England Rooney has to touch the ball 20 times and pass it around for 5 minutes before we can go forwards.
Guest ttfn Posted 13 March 2014 Posted 13 March 2014 1) I totally and utterly disagree with that, Cristian Rodregiuez, Maxi Perrira, Diego Godin and Walter Gargano would (or at least should) get in our team. That's 6/11 in favor of Uruguay and their better players aren't a little bit better than ours like Italys, their streets ahead, they have a genuine World Class threat in their strike force that is going to give the best teams in the tournament a problem never mind us. 2) It's not inverse snobbery, we aren't as good as we were, and we've been handed a stinking group, for me, and most others, on paper, we're third favorites, had we got France's group I'd be expecting a knockout place. Claiming we're better than Italy, saying we should be beating Uruguay is just ignorant to the class they have and the conditions we're going to play these games in. 3) I am not saying it is impossible for us to get out of the group, who knows we could even get 9 points, but if I were a betting man, I'd be betting against. I'll still be watching both games hoping we can win and it wouldn't surprise one or even both games are tight but this is going to be a massive test and I don't think we're up to task on this occasion. 1) I don't think any of those 4 players would significantly improve our team. I think they'd all be contenders for the first XI rather than definites. As for the second part of that paragraph, I would contend that at the moment Sturridge would be getting in the Uruguay side ahead of Cavani. 2) I think our group is too close to call. Italy are probably just about favourites, but in a competition where the league format is just 3 matches, the gap between Italy, Uruguay and England is incredibly small. Make no mistake, Italy and Uruguay will be just as disappointed to have drawn England as we will be to have drawn them. 3) I think you're probably right. We ought to beat Costa Rica and then I think anything could happen in the other 2 games. I can't see either being settled by a margin of more than one goal. What I'm trying to articulate is that a number of the countries that get talked up (Uruguay being one) have just as many glaring weaknesses as England. There's a lot of doom and gloom around this England side (and rightly so given the comparative dearth of quality players at our disposal compared with previous tournaments) but in Hart, Rooney, Sturridge and Gerrard we have 4 players who would command a place in the squad of any country going to the tournament and a place in the starting XI of all bar perhaps six or seven sides. This is clearly a step down from 2002-2008 when we had world class options all over the pitch, but there's no way we should be turning up to this tournament fearing Uruguay or Italy. They might beat us - they might even expect to beat us - but we've still got enough quality to get past either or both of them.
Guest MattP Posted 14 March 2014 Posted 14 March 2014 1) I don't think any of those 4 players would significantly improve our team. I think they'd all be contenders for the first XI rather than definites. As for the second part of that paragraph, I would contend that at the moment Sturridge would be getting in the Uruguay side ahead of Cavani. 2) I think our group is too close to call. Italy are probably just about favourites, but in a competition where the league format is just 3 matches, the gap between Italy, Uruguay and England is incredibly small. Make no mistake, Italy and Uruguay will be just as disappointed to have drawn England as we will be to have drawn them. 3) I think you're probably right. We ought to beat Costa Rica and then I think anything could happen in the other 2 games. I can't see either being settled by a margin of more than one goal. What I'm trying to articulate is that a number of the countries that get talked up (Uruguay being one) have just as many glaring weaknesses as England. There's a lot of doom and gloom around this England side (and rightly so given the comparative dearth of quality players at our disposal compared with previous tournaments) but in Hart, Rooney, Sturridge and Gerrard we have 4 players who would command a place in the squad of any country going to the tournament and a place in the starting XI of all bar perhaps six or seven sides. This is clearly a step down from 2002-2008 when we had world class options all over the pitch, but there's no way we should be turning up to this tournament fearing Uruguay or Italy. They might beat us - they might even expect to beat us - but we've still got enough quality to get past either or both of them. 1) I think Diego Godin on form walks into any defence in the World on his form this year, been one of the unnoticed rocks behind which Atletico Madrid's success has been built on. Him and Terry in centre defence would be up with the best in the World. Not having Sturridge anywhere near Cavani's level quite yet. Christian Rodriguez would get in as well, no way is a Milner starting ahead of him. 2) True, they could have had easier groups as well. I do think Uruguay should be strong faves for the group though, the South American factor is absolutely huge in this tournament, just look at the record of European sides on that continent against South American teams. It's a completely different game of football, you have to completely adapt your pace and style for it. 3) Maybe, Ebgland v Italy has draw written all over it. I get the feeling Uruguay will beat us or Italy and beat Costa which would be enough to take them through though. Keep the doom and gloom going, we have tried eternal optimism over the last 25 years with the best squad we have had and it's done us no good at all, maybe a change is in order.
Dan Posted 14 March 2014 Posted 14 March 2014 In fairness expectations weren't through the roof for the Euros and I was impressed that we won that group. Beat a Sweden side that beat France 2-0. I think France were the better side against us but we got the result. I'm looking forward to see how it all pans out anyway. Things are going brilliantly football-wise and I never saw this kind of season coming for Leicester, so maybe England will surprise us also.
Guest ttfn Posted 14 March 2014 Posted 14 March 2014 1) I think Diego Godin on form walks into any defence in the World on his form this year, been one of the unnoticed rocks behind which Atletico Madrid's success has been built on. Him and Terry in centre defence would be up with the best in the World. Not having Sturridge anywhere near Cavani's level quite yet. Christian Rodriguez would get in as well, no way is a Milner starting ahead of him. 2) True, they could have had easier groups as well. I do think Uruguay should be strong faves for the group though, the South American factor is absolutely huge in this tournament, just look at the record of European sides on that continent against South American teams. It's a completely different game of football, you have to completely adapt your pace and style for it. 3) Maybe, Ebgland v Italy has draw written all over it. I get the feeling Uruguay will beat us or Italy and beat Costa which would be enough to take them through though. Keep the doom and gloom going, we have tried eternal optimism over the last 25 years with the best squad we have had and it's done us no good at all, maybe a change is in order. Why are we talking about "form" for Godin but you still say that Sturridge (28 in 34 in, like it or not, one of Europe's top three leagues since signing for what was then a mid-table Liverpool side) is not "anywhere near" Cavani's level (14 in 22 in the French League for a side which is running away with the league)? You're using two different yardsticks here - on "form" (by any measure you would choose to use to describe that) Sturridge is ahead of Cavani and considerably so. This is exactly the inverse snobbery I'm talking about - if Sturridge was Brazilian we'd be talking about him as the new Romario. It's about time he was recognised as a class act. Not disputing anything else you've got to say there - it all makes sense but Sturridge is right up there at the moment.
Manwell Pablo Posted 14 March 2014 Posted 14 March 2014 1) I don't think any of those 4 players would significantly improve our team. I think they'd all be contenders for the first XI rather than definites. As for the second part of that paragraph, I would contend that at the moment Sturridge would be getting in the Uruguay side ahead of Cavani. 2) I think our group is too close to call. Italy are probably just about favourites, but in a competition where the league format is just 3 matches, the gap between Italy, Uruguay and England is incredibly small. Make no mistake, Italy and Uruguay will be just as disappointed to have drawn England as we will be to have drawn them. 3) I think you're probably right. We ought to beat Costa Rica and then I think anything could happen in the other 2 games. I can't see either being settled by a margin of more than one goal. What I'm trying to articulate is that a number of the countries that get talked up (Uruguay being one) have just as many glaring weaknesses as England. There's a lot of doom and gloom around this England side (and rightly so given the comparative dearth of quality players at our disposal compared with previous tournaments) but in Hart, Rooney, Sturridge and Gerrard we have 4 players who would command a place in the squad of any country going to the tournament and a place in the starting XI of all bar perhaps six or seven sides. This is clearly a step down from 2002-2008 when we had world class options all over the pitch, but there's no way we should be turning up to this tournament fearing Uruguay or Italy. They might beat us - they might even expect to beat us - but we've still got enough quality to get past either or both of them. On the players, Matt's reply covered two of them, but I'd also add Perrira would without question be starting ahead of the two muppets contesting the right back position and we don't have a holding midfielder like Galgano. Aside from that I agree they probably are a bit wounded they've drawn us and there isn't a huge amount in it between Italy and England perhaps Uruguay but I feel the familiar surroundings and the threat of the strikers give them an edge. I am purely talking on paper football isn't played on paper though, It's far from impossible, but we aren't going to get away with putting in the disappointing performances that have become the trademark of the in English national team and still get through at this tournament, we'll go out.
Stadt Posted 14 March 2014 Posted 14 March 2014 Uruguay aren't even 5* on FIFA.Bolton are 3.5*, but we're only 3 stars. You can't use fifa as means of comparing teams - not unless you are 11 years old
Dan Posted 16 March 2014 Posted 16 March 2014 Uruguay aren't even 5* on FIFA. 100% a wind up fair play. Had me going a while.
MC Prussian Posted 16 March 2014 Posted 16 March 2014 Uruguay aren't even 5* on FIFA. I'll give you 5* for your trolling efforts. Well done.
Pride_Of_The_Midlands Posted 16 March 2014 Posted 16 March 2014 Not a wind up at all. If Uruguay have such superior players to us I'd expect that to be reflected in FIFA. Who does pride of the midlands support? The Pride of the Midlands
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