2015 Election season ..........stuff it in here.

[MooseBreath]

Whether it is or isn't is debatable. After all saying that it isn't implies there's a way of making wealth out of nothing: Perhaps you can start a business out of nothing, but the money that you earn from it has to come from somewhere already extant, people with vast bank accounts are well aware of this or they wouldn't bother keeping them, why would you when you can make wealth whenever you feel like it?

It isn't debatable. Global wealth grows pretty much all the time. Poor people might be poorer relative to the richest in society, but they're still better off than they were before, so what's the problem?

[Webbo]

But I still don't see how the likes of Amazon can get away with paying so little in tax, it's all well and good making some celebrities pay tax but with corporations the tax avoidance is worth billions, some of the business owners who signed the letter in support of the Tories were tax avoiders, which says a lot in itself.

Companies that move their profits overseas to avoid tax will be subject to a "diverted profits tax" from April, the chancellor has said.

In his final Budget before the election, George Osborne said firms that aid tax evasion will also face new penalties and criminal prosecutions.

The so-called "Google Tax" is designed to discourage large companies diverting profits out of the the UK to avoid tax.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31942639

[MiniFox]

It isn't debatable. Global wealth grows pretty much all the time. Poor people might be poorer relative to the richest in society, but they're still better off than they were before, so what's the problem?

Which poor people are better off than they were before?

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/03/tories-ed-balls-labour-vat-tax-credits

[Webbo]

Which poor people are better off than they were before?

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/03/tories-ed-balls-labour-vat-tax-credits

We're not counting Labour propaganda as evidence are we?

[MooseBreath]

Which poor people are better off than they were before?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/03/tories-ed-balls-labour-vat-tax-credits

If we're talking local and recent then anyone on minimum wage, all the previously unemployed people who have now got jobs, all the people who benefitted from the increase to the tax free allowance. If we're talking global and over the last few decades then billions all over the world.

[MiniFox]

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31942639

 

Well, if it happens, good, I'm not convinced they'll make all their chums pay full tax though, although if the likes of Amazon and Google start paying the amount of tax they are supposed to then that is a good move in the right direction. 

[MiniFox]

We're not counting Labour propaganda as evidence are we?

VAT going up isn't what I'd call propaganda. 

 

I'm sure the IFS verified that families are worse off somewhere.

If we're talking local and recent then anyone on minimum wage, all the previously unemployed people who have now got jobs, all the people who benefitted from the increase to the tax free allowance. If we're talking global and over the last few decades then billions all over the world.

The figures show more people employed, which is true, but their are many that aren't well paid, mostly due to zero hour contracts, so although it looks as if people in jobs will be better off, they probably won't be or not by a lot anyway.

[Rincewind]

We're not counting Labour propaganda as evidence are we?

No because only  Tory propaganda are true facts

[MooseBreath]

The figures show more people employed, which is true, but their are many that aren't well paid, mostly due to zero hour contracts, so although it looks as if people in jobs will be better off, they probably won't be or not by a lot anyway.

Nothing more than conjecture.

[Harry - LCFC]

If you can walk past a mansion, and then walk past someone starving on the street and think 'oh well they haven't developed as rapidly, they'll get there', then I think you need to have a good long look in the mirror to be honest. The rich aren't starving the poor, but the 1% could do a lot more to help the people who need it most. Tax them till they are very comfortable and you've got a ridiculous amount of money to give to the very poorest sections of society, you, Moose and Matt might not think that's very fair and it's not. But the world as it is currently, is a lot less fair. I know it's not that simple a situation, but why would you want to vote for the party that just doesn't seem to care about the widening divide between rich and poor at all?

 

On your first sentence I want to point out that I was speaking about nations developing over hundreds of years and not individual lives. I think what I said about human progress was right but lets talk about what you have to say.

 

I think taxation can be legitimately used to prevent suffering and I think with the help of charitable groups that is being achieved. I'm not doubting that life is tough for some but I don't think you can make people pay for more than a few basic comforts.

 

I hope we can still be friends now you've discovered I'm a bit right wing on the economy 

 

 

Racism and Homophobia (and sexism, xenephobia etc.) fall away when people and politicians actively challenge them and actually try to educate them. The barriers don't go away by themselves and those that are still in place won't unless people challenge them. Thankfully I think both of the major parties want these things challenged to some degree, but I think it's dangerous to fall into the trap of thinking issues like that are going to sort themselves out. I suppose it's still relevant to the thread because the way to sort them out certainly isn't voting UKIP or BNP for example.

 

Campaigns probably help but they're only a part of what I think removes intolerance from society - hearing both sides. I think when presented with both views on homosexuality individuals slide towards the more moral and logical one because its more appealing.

 

When I said it'll fall away naturally I meant that parents can be relied upon to give their children a more tolerant upbringing than they were given themselves.

[Webbo]

No because only  Tory propaganda are true facts

Don't be an arsehole Ken. When have I ever posted a claim by a Tory politician and said it was fact?

[Buce]

Don't be an arsehole Ken. When have I ever posted a claim by a Tory politician and said it was fact?

I think you're being a bit over-sensitive there, Webbo; I doubt if it was aimed at you - you are probably the only reasonable Tory on here.

Edit: I'll add Strokes to that - I forgot he's not a kipper any more.

[ronnup]

eurgh, hate it when people make a load of crap arguments.

Irony isn't wasted on you

[ronnup]

I pointed out that Europe as has done well economically which it undeniably has. I did not insinuate that Europeans were genetically superior and it annoys me that you accuse me of doing so.

Since you ask, I think Europe's success can be put down to far more favourable geography (rivers, fertile land, lack of droughts, ample food, forgiving weather) and the adoption of free markets and free trade. Nothing to do with race in my opinion.

Slavery, empirical impression, divisive intervention all not factors!

And geographically yes, I suppose all those diamond and gold mines were rightfully European due to our rapid development.

[Rincewind]

I think you're being a bit over-sensitive there, Webbo; I doubt if it was aimed at you - you are probably the only reasonable Tory on here.

Edit: I'll add Strokes to that - I forgot he's not a kipper any more.

True.It was not meant to be offensive to anyone.. It was aimed at 'You believe all that Labour propaganda?' post. I took it to mean that propaganda from any area but Labour was OK. It was also meant to be a little tongue in cheek. For the record I do not believe everything a Labour politician says in the same way I do not believe everything a Tory politician. Such is the way of politics the world over. As the say goes 'There are lies, dammed lies and statistics.'

[Benji]

I think you're being a bit over-sensitive there, Webbo; I doubt if it was aimed at you - you are probably the only reasonable Tory on here.

Edit: I'll add Strokes to that - I forgot he's not a kipper any more.

I told myself I wouldn't cry.

[Stadt]

I think you're being a bit over-sensitive there, Webbo; I doubt if it was aimed at you - you are probably the only reasonable Tory on here.

Edit: I'll add Strokes to that - I forgot he's not a kipper any more.

Isnt it only Moose who offends people?

[MooseBreath]

Unlikely. My posts are heavily sanitised these days because people on here get ridiculously upset by points of view they can't bring themselves to consider.

[MooseBreath]

Slavery, empirical impression, divisive intervention all not factors!

And geographically yes, I suppose all those diamond and gold mines were rightfully European due to our rapid development.

I mean look at this guy. Look at what he's desperate to imply. It deserves a strong response but ain't nobody gonna give it.

[Guest]

Yes that would be very mature and not at all disgusting.

 

I think he was joking.He's wise enough to know that Farage wouldn't notice the difference.

[Guest]

If i look out the window I can see a foodbank and a soup kitchen, something I had never seen before, but fair enough.

 

Don't you think that it is an improvement that people in need now have a foodbank and soup kitchen which they didn't have before?

[Guest]

Surprised nobody has mentioned HSBC potentially leaving the country. Who knew a culture of blaming the banks would lead banks to simply leave the country. If it sparks an exodus of financial services we're in serious trouble. They've been propping the country up financially for a couple of decades at least. Makes the prospect of dumb labour populism all the more dangerous.

 

Leaving or fleeing?

[Guest]

The rich aren't starving the poor.

 

In prehistoric times everyone was poor. Now a lot of us aren't. The reason for that is because the west (and other areas) have been very successful at creating their own wealth. We didn't make them poor, we didn't steal their stuff* they just haven't developed as rapidly as we have but they'll get there.

 

*Apart from a brief period of course. But the colonial era isn't the major reason as to why Africa is poor today.

 

What are you talking about?

 

By the way a lot of "wealth" has been generated by raping the earth - the earth that doesn't belong to any single person or corporation. If the price of abusing the earth was taken into account instead of ignored then profits wouldn't be profits anymore. Still other people pay for our use of the earth.

 

Watch this to educate yourself:  http://www.ted.com/talks/pavan_sukhdev_what_s_the_price_of_nature?language=en

[Buce]

I told myself I wouldn't cry.

No offence, mate.

I don't keep track of all the Tory voters on here, but it seems that the most vocal of them toe the party line slavishly: to paraphase Orwell - "two legs good, four legs bad. Baaaaaaaa"

Webbo and Strokes stand-out as being more open-minded.

[Buce]

Isnt it only Moose who offends people?

It wasn't about being offensive - see my previous post.

And I pay no heed to what a troll thinks.