2015 Election season ..........stuff it in here.

[Alf Bentley]

"Hard work = results" doesn't seem to have worked too well for LCFC this season. We've worked hard enough, but have (so far) lacked a bit of quality and expertise.

Or maybe a Tory minister could come down to the training ground and order them to work harder - and we'd immediately escape from the relegation zone? 

 

I was visiting an old mate last weekend and his wife is an experienced teacher (and a very good one, I'd imagine).

 

His wife (early 50s) was talking about quitting teaching in a year's time due to the working hours and pressure being excessive. In addition to school hours, she normally works every weekday evening except Friday and all day Sunday. As for the summer holidays, that seems to be 2 weeks recovery time, 2 weeks holiday, 2 weeks preparing for the new year.

 

Obviously, there will be some lazy or incompetent sods in teaching, just as there are in any profession, but my impression, having met a fair few, is that most (not all) teachers probably work harder than most (not all) people in other professions.

 

I know that I'm wasting my time saying things like this to Moose or Webbo, who seem to have an ideological belief that anyone in the public sector is a lazy, worthless, overpaid cvnt and anyone in the private sector is a knight in shining armour bringing golden benefits to the nation (as the bankers did, of course). I've worked in both sectors and you get good and bad in both, in my experience, but I'd have thought teaching would be a particularly hard place to get away with being a lazy sod. 

[MooseBreath]

I don't think the football analogy works, football is too complex. Let's try litter picking instead. Litter picker A works five hours a day and picks at a rate of eight pieces per minute. Litter picker B works seven hours per day and picks 10 pieces of litter per minute. Who picks the most litter? Litter picker B of course. Hard(er) work = better results.

[Alf Bentley]

I don't think the football analogy works, football is too complex. Let's try litter picking instead. Litter picker A works five hours a day and picks at a rate of eight pieces per minute. Litter picker B works seven hours per day and picks 10 pieces of litter per minute. Who picks the most litter? Litter picker B of course. Hard(er) work = better results.

 

 

I'm assuming that there's a little winding up going on there, Moose....teachers on a par with litter pickers, not footballers?! 

 

Mind you, it would have been better for everyone if my daughter's teacher last year had been on permanent litter-picking duty, the nasty, useless old bag!

 

Must go, I've got a lot of hard work to do...in the private sector, naturally!

[leicsmac]

I don't think the football analogy works, football is too complex. Let's try litter picking instead. Litter picker A works five hours a day and picks at a rate of eight pieces per minute. Litter picker B works seven hours per day and picks 10 pieces of litter per minute. Who picks the most litter? Litter picker B of course. Hard(er) work = better results.

 

Something of a simplistic argument there, but again I think you know that. Teaching is a little bit more complicated than litter picking.

 

In any case, improvements are a good thing (if they are occuring across the board, the whole thing is pretty nebulous and depends on how you're testing) but Gove clearly wants to model the UK education system on that of the Far Eastern model - rote memorisation, one-time exams and suppression of much in the way of creative learning. Which of course is practically unparalleled when it comes to general standards and exam results based on that same memorisation, but the human cost leaves...something to be desired.

 

As a fervent advocate of Randian individualism I'd have thought you'd be all in favour of a more creative education policy that emphasises the individual, rather than one that turns students into memorising test-passing automatons (apart from the ones who fail the tests and end up topping themselves). Especially as there are better ways to get just as good results.

[Webbo]

 

 

 

I know that I'm wasting my time saying things like this to Moose or Webbo, who seem to have an ideological belief that anyone in the public sector is a lazy, worthless, overpaid cvnt and anyone in the private sector is a knight in shining armour bringing golden benefits to the nation (as the bankers did, of course). I've worked in both sectors and you get good and bad in both, in my experience, but I'd have thought teaching would be a particularly hard place to get away with being a lazy sod. 

No need to be personal chap, it's only opinions. 

 

I don't think everyone in the public sector is lazy or useless although I do believe on occasions their feather bedded working conditions can sometimes blind them to the realities the rest of us face . It's more the education establishment I have a problem with who seem like intransigent cranks and professional excuse makers, more concerned with protecting teachers than helping children reach their full potential.

[MooseBreath]

I haven't really seen much about this adoption of far eastern methods, except perhaps the longer school day, which was intended to bridge the gap in access to extracurricular activities between state and private schools. Surely everyone would accept teachers working an extra hour or two, or even having more teachers, if it promotes equality?

I think he also suggested shorter holidays, I don't agree with that for the pupils, but see no reason why teachers shouldn't accept a more normal level of holidays. Perhaps if they spread their work more evenly across the year then they wouldn't have to work into the late afternoon so often.

The phonetics thing seems to have been well adopted with resounding success.

Academies are more self governing so surely that gives teachers more influence, which again is surely a good thing from their point of view?

I don't know what else he changed but it doesn't seem like anything too drastic. Most of the opposition from teachers and unions seemed to be about working hours and holidays, which is neither surprising nor of any interest to me. What matters most is results and if kids from poorer backgrounds are catching up with their more advantaged peers then surely that's a real success?

Before I provoke the ire of the Foxestalk teaching community once again, let me just reiterate that I think teaching is among the most important of all professions, and that teachers should not work so many hours that it becomes detrimental to results, and the salaries on offer should be higher if it can be proven that it would attract a better calibre of teachers who could produce measurably improved results.

[Alf Bentley]

No need to be personal chap, it's only opinions. 

 

I don't think everyone in the public sector is lazy or useless although I do believe on occasions their feather bedded working conditions can sometimes blind them to the realities the rest of us face . It's more the education establishment I have a problem with who seem like intransigent cranks and professional excuse makers, more concerned with protecting teachers than helping children reach their full potential.

 

I had no intention to "be personal", Webbo, just giving my opinions/impressions - and expressing a little exasperation at the constant, one-eyed carping about all the idle wasters in the public sector (there was a thread full of people going on about idle teachers just a few months back, as I recall). I apologise if you feel that I came on a bit strong....though you've been known to express some quite terse views yourself, on occasion!    "It's only the Internet", anyway, and not worth getting upset about.

"Are we still friends?", as my daughter would ask at this point. 

 

My impression is that the problem with schools relates more to the constant, prescriptive interventions of government (of both political persuasions), but that's another debate and I've got work to do.

 

In the interests of fairness, I should add that my daughter is doing much better at Maths this year, under a teaching method re-introduced from the past, possibly at Gove's behest....though that may just be down to her having a very good teacher this year, compared to the useless, spiteful cow (with a very red nose) who taught her last year!

[Webbo]

If I sometimes come across terse, that's not my intention.

 

Still friends .

[Alf Bentley]

If I sometimes come across terse, that's not my intention.

 

Still friends .

 

You're probably just more capable of being concise than me!

 

I'm sure we all misread one another's intended tone occasionally.

 

Not worth anyone getting even slightly bothered, anyway. FoxesTalk should be - and is - fun (well, it is in General Chat; I do wonder about some of the miseries in the main forum!).

 

I view it as a proud claim to fame that I've never put anyone on here on "ignore". I did briefly consider it with TPH - because I found him depressing during a down period for me, not because I disagreed with everything he said (though I did). As you know, people that I disagree with are the ones that I'm most likely to get into conversation with on here, being an argumentative bastard! 

[ADK]

Careful what you wish for, you might want to move abroad one day. It's interesting how many people seem opposed to freedoms and rights that apply to them as well.

 

 

I doubt it. Those people who favour isolationism don't want to go any further than perhaps the coast of southern Spain for a couple of weeks every year. And even then only if there's good battered sausage and chips.

 

Not quite sure how us leaving the freedom of movement of labour would affect my chances of working abroad. There are plenty of places outside the EU where people work abroad and they don't need a blanket treaty to do so. Are you suggesting the EU would protest by imposing a blanket ban on British people? I would hope not.

 

Likewise I don't understand why wanting us to have control of our borders makes me an isolationist, there's this weird notion that if you don't support uncontrolled immigration you must be some sort of xenophobe or nationalist which is illogical.

[bovril]

Not quite sure how us leaving the freedom of movement of labour would affect my chances of working abroad. There are plenty of places outside the EU where people work abroad and they don't need a blanket treaty to do so. Are you suggesting the EU would protest by imposing a blanket ban on British people? I would hope not.

 

No. But I know plenty of Americans working in the EU and it's a ball ache, and much more expensive. Of course it would also make it harder for you to work abroad.

[purpleronnie]

Farage fans and ukip lovers was amusing,  Stella from Leicester was a personnel favourite stating immigrants should "p**s off" back to their own country but then adds that she hopes there's no racism in Ukip, because "that would be wrong."

 

The irony of moaning about immigrants claiming benefits seemed lost on her too, I don't know whether to be angry at her misinformed ramblings or pity her, she's obviously miserable and looking for someone to 'blame'. 

[ADK]

No. But I know plenty of Americans working in the EU and it's a ball ache, and much more expensive. Of course it would also make it harder for you to work abroad.

 I guess you could say the same about the single currency but I'm glad we are not being dragged down by that fiasco despite the fact it makes it slightly more difficult when travelling in Europe and costs a small amount in commission.

[Guest MattP]

Nobody watches PMQ, cos it's horseshite. Scripted horseshite.

 

I actually found myself agreeing with Nigel ****ing Farage this evening.

 

The BBC should put the debate on, and other broadcasters, and if the Conservatives show up so be it, if they don't so be it **** 'em. Trying to manage the pre-election media! Ha! 

 

The viewing figures actually aren't bad for PMQ's (DP on weds), I give it a watch and if I'm out get it back on the Iplayer.

 

These debates are probably more scripted than PMQ's as the backbemnchers can ask the PM whatever they like rather than a supposed neutral conductor in an agreed format.

 

I'll never understand not being in favour of the EU.  When you're unhappy with the UK government you'd talk about changing it, not removing it, so why's an attempt at continental unification more vilified?

 

Is it really that hard to understand that some people don't want other people being able to block or make our laws, tell us who we can and can't have in our own country and now even are able to take money off of us for no reason at all because we have a better economy than them?

 

BBCQT have just tweeted this which I thought was quite interesting.

 

 

@bbcquestiontime Some Labour members have tweeted pictures like the following: #bbcqt

 

 

Clearly we're all aware of the reason why one might vote tactically but I was surprised and amused to see a party actually endorse it as a strategy.

 

****ing hell.

 

Have Labour ever told people to vote for the Tories before?

 

I doubt it. Those people who favour isolationism don't want to go any further than perhaps the coast of southern Spain for a couple of weeks every year. And even then only if there's good battered sausage and chips.

 

What a ridiculous thing to say.

 

The way some people talk you would think people never moved before the EU came about, we did you know.

 

"Hard work = results" doesn't seem to have worked too well for LCFC this season. We've worked hard enough, but have (so far) lacked a bit of quality and expertise.

Or maybe a Tory minister could come down to the training ground and order them to work harder - and we'd immediately escape from the relegation zone? 

 

I was visiting an old mate last weekend and his wife is an experienced teacher (and a very good one, I'd imagine).

 

His wife (early 50s) was talking about quitting teaching in a year's time due to the working hours and pressure being excessive. In addition to school hours, she normally works every weekday evening except Friday and all day Sunday. As for the summer holidays, that seems to be 2 weeks recovery time, 2 weeks holiday, 2 weeks preparing for the new year.

 

Recovery time?!

 

They have finished teaching classes of children, they haven't gone twelve rounds with Wladimir Klitschko! Lot's of people have very stressful jobs, if they want two weeks recovery time after it then they are using about 35-40% of their holiday allocation...

 

Of all the things teachers can moan at holidays certainly isn't one. As for moaning about a Tory minsiter, they are teachers, of course they are going to moan about the Tories as they seem to want to make them work harder, of course a Labour party that has most of the public sector vote in it's pocket would be preferable to them.

 

It's not about them though, it's about the students and education standards appear to be rising over the last few years according to most reports and statistics we read.

[MooseBreath]

'Recovery time' made me laugh as well. Might try that one at work. "yo Moose it's 3pm where you going?" "you what m8 haven't you heard, we're allowed three hours paid recovery time during work now boss I'm off for a lie down. Man I need to recover before I can start my evening."

[leicsmac]

What a ridiculous thing to say.

The way some people talk you would think people never moved before the EU came about, we did you know.

Recovery time?!

They have finished teaching classes of children, they haven't gone twelve rounds with Wladimir Klitschko! Lot's of people have very stressful jobs, if they want two weeks recovery time after it then they are using about 35-40% of their holiday allocation...

Of all the things teachers can moan at holidays certainly isn't one. As for moaning about a Tory minsiter, they are teachers, of course they are going to moan about the Tories as they seem to want to make them work harder, of course a Labour party that has most of the public sector vote in it's pocket would be preferable to them.

It's not about them though, it's about the students and education standards appear to be rising over the last few years according to most reports and statistics we read.

Did you miss the part where I said I was taking the mick? ;-)

Regarding education, I made this point to Moose and I'll make the same one to you: Gove is trying to change the education system to one that favours a one size fits all policy that places rote memorization and an all or nothing exam over creative thought and individualised education. That model works very well in terms of international league tables, but not so well for the kids who don't "fit in". The row about holidays and all that other stuff is just a smokescreen, though you seem to vastly underestimate just how stressful a job teaching is. I wonder if Gove does too, considering he's never taught a class of teenagers in his life?

As an addendum, I have heard an argument from a few people on here regarding a privileged group of workers that should be allowed to do pretty much as they wish, or they'll leave for elsewhere and the job they do is essential to the country. What's good for the goose, perhaps...?

[Alf Bentley]

Recovery time?!

 

They have finished teaching classes of children, they haven't gone twelve rounds with Wladimir Klitschko! Lot's of people have very stressful jobs, if they want two weeks recovery time after it then they are using about 35-40% of their holiday allocation...

 

Of all the things teachers can moan at holidays certainly isn't one. As for moaning about a Tory minsiter, they are teachers, of course they are going to moan about the Tories as they seem to want to make them work harder, of course a Labour party that has most of the public sector vote in it's pocket would be preferable to them.

 

 

'Recovery time' made me laugh as well. Might try that one at work. "yo Moose it's 3pm where you going?" "you what m8 haven't you heard, we're allowed three hours paid recovery time during work now boss I'm off for a lie down. Man I need to recover before I can start my evening."

 

For the record, my mate's missus didn't moan about holidays, and only told me about her normal weekly hours after I asked her. It's a shame because she clearly loves the job otherwise. Lots of the extra-curricular hours involve form-filling and red tape.

 

It probably partly comes down to age, too. At 52, I find that I need a break at some point during the spring and autumn, not just in the summer and at Christmas, as I did even 6 or 7 years ago. And my job isn't anywhere near as stressful as teaching, and I only occasionally work very long hours.....as opposed to 55+ hours per week of demanding work for my mate's missus.

 

The only time I ever did any teaching (apart from a few voluntary sessions), was when I did the 1-month TEFL qualification - and I found that some of the most stressful work I've done (and I've done jobs the equivalent of a boxing match). Part of that would be because I was new to it and not a natural, but even so.... I wouldn't fancy working a 55+-hour week as a teacher in my 50s.

 

So, maybe it's time for some of you keen, energetic young blokes to put in the extra hours? Matt? Moose? 

 

"Work and work and work and work till you die. There's plenty more fish in the sea to fry" (Purple Ronnie will know that one)

 

Quality of life, not standard of living / protestant work ethic / slave to the capitalist machine! 

[Guest MattP]

For the record, my mate's missus didn't moan about holidays, and only told me about her normal weekly hours after I asked her. It's a shame because she clearly loves the job otherwise. Lots of the extra-curricular hours involve form-filling and red tape.

 

It probably partly comes down to age, too. At 52, I find that I need a break at some point during the spring and autumn, not just in the summer and at Christmas, as I did even 6 or 7 years ago. And my job isn't anywhere near as stressful as teaching, and I only occasionally work very long hours.....as opposed to 55+ hours per week of demanding work for my mate's missus.

 

The only time I ever did any teaching (apart from a few voluntary sessions), was when I did the 1-month TEFL qualification - and I found that some of the most stressful work I've done (and I've done jobs the equivalent of a boxing match). Part of that would be because I was new to it and not a natural, but even so.... I wouldn't fancy working a 55+-hour week as a teacher in my 50s.

 

So, maybe it's time for some of you keen, energetic young blokes to put in the extra hours? Matt? Moose? 

 

"Work and work and work and work till you die. There's plenty more fish in the sea to fry" (Purple Ronnie will know that one)

 

Quality of life, not standard of living / protestant work ethic / slave to the capitalist machine! 

 

Sorry but I'm not not having that someone would need two weeks convalescence due to teaching.

 

I suppose we can only go off who we talk to, I know a few teachers, a couple say it's the hardest job in the World (although they have both only ever been teachers so I don't know how they compare) and a couple say it's fairly comfortable, it;s the older ones that seem to say it's more comfortable in my experience, maybe the young un's these days simply just can't hack it like the old boys do.

 

I know marathon runners who have gone into work on a Tuesday after running it on the Sunday.

 

Two weeks recovery is more than needed for the vast majority of operations or treatments, it's more than is needed for most jobs where people have suffered severe trauma killing someone or suffered an injury -  it sounds absolutely pathetic to be honest, I wouldn't be able to control my laughter if someone said that to me about teaching kids.

 

Should we give teachers an extra 6 weeks off a year for Easter Summer and Christmas in order to recover for the actual holiday?

[Lord Nibblington]

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/jan/23/schools-improve-performance-dfe-data

Sounds like improvement to me.

Not surprised at all the Gove was so unpopular though. Any boss who rocks up and demands better performance is going to face a backlash. I'm not interested in that, I'm interested in results, and they appear to be improving.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/jan/29/english-schools-failing-gcse-targets-doubles

 

Just in the interest of balance, mind. If you're only interested in results. They've got worse.

 

And before you defend it, I am aware fully of the reasons why. But if you're going to argue results going up as per your article meaning education is getting better and that' is your only yardstick (I would assume you try and shoot down any counter argument to the article you posted about the number of huge structural problems in education caused by this government by sticking with the whole, but it must be working hence results going up!) then results going down must mean it's not getting better and that's your only yardstick.

 

My point being, education really is not just about results. But no doubt you'll tell me I'm wrong.

[MooseBreath]

What is it about if not results?

[Jon the Hat]

Ridiculous statement. Education is obviously about results, but of course you can measure the wrong things and get great results, yet not produce the skills people need to achieve their potential. See labour, dumbing down etc.

[Bellend Sebastian]

Wary as I am of linking another piece in The Guardian, thought this was good:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/08/armando-iannucci-money-at-heart-of-politics-general-election-2015

[The God Emperor]

Wary as I am of linking another piece in The Guardian, thought this was good:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/08/armando-iannucci-money-at-heart-of-politics-general-election-2015

He's partly right, but it's power not money that is at the heart of politics and it always has been. Politics has never been about people. Everthing a government does is a bid for more power, even if the intentions look good the results will only be good for the government and it's special intrests. Also the author has a very rose tinted view of the past if he believes that governments building empires of corporate welfare is a new thing. It's something that's been going on since governments have existed, we used to call it mercantilism.

[MooseBreath]

Bit of a nonsense to say that things like education and health care aren't discussed. They are discussed regularly and at great length, for me the "how do we pay for it" discussion isn't had too much but not enough, especially by the left leaning parties.

No surprise to see the guardian try to shift the argument away from the economy though, they have no credibility left there whatsoever.

[davieG]

We moved from Royalty to landowners to individual business entrepreneurs to faceless global corporate giants more or less.