cityfanlee23

I have seen James make the run a couple of times and it's been quite effective with him getting the ball in dangerous areas, my issue is it happens nowhere near frequently enough and often too late. We need to do it more often with multiple players making those channel runs such as Thomas or Ramsey, but we also need to move the ball quicker. Rangers yesterday moved the ball so much quicker under Rohl than under RM and although they didn't play incredibly well, they were pulling Kilmarnock all over the place at times, completely different level of opponent vs championship squads obviously, but the movement of rangers was pulling the opponents out of position constantly because of the pace. One big issue we have now even more than under Enzo, is we don't seem to have the composure or confidence to move the ball between positions quickly, which this system heavily relies on. I hate this style with a passion but I get it, you move the ball and force the opponent to tire themselves out chasing, inevitably creating space. But this only works if the opponent has to do more than a light jog, a huge problem we have, is we hit a team on the break with Fatawu, he gets doubled up on with little support, so he pauses for 3-4 seconds, passes it back to Ricardo, who then looks around, plays it to winks in the middle, who passes it to vestergard, who then either passes it to Thomas or finally passes to Mavididi, and suddenly our counter attack is faced with a deep block with everyone behind the ball. I can't remember the last time that we got the ball from wing to wing in less than 3 passes and actually dragged the opponent out of position or made them scramble to get across the pitch, we take 9-10 passes to get the ball across to the other wing.

It's a concern for sure, but with that said, we know Ricardo can play as an inverted full back and slot into midfield, there is nothing then stopping JJ from getting forward once Ricardo inverts. Again it's less about the quality of the player, more about the movement which forces open space. We just need a body to move somewhere, right now we are like statues at times.

Yeah I completely see your point and I do agree to an extent, even if we adopted Enzo's channel runs it would definitely be a downgrade on what we saw 23/24, my point is that imo it would still be an upgrade on the current system of praying fatawu can take on 3 players and put it in the top corner. I know that right now JJ is not producing the way that KDH was, but he's surely good enough to run in a straight line into a channel? That would create space for our strikers who up to now are constantly surrounded and never given support. Our strike force is pitiful right now, but we are certainly hampering them through the lack of space they are provided.

Yep, and this is exactly why so many have want to hound him into selling, because he simply cannot see what's happening. The crazy thing is, Top could literally have created a new position that was higher than DOF, for example a role that allows him to oversee KP's sporting interests as a whole for example, whilst bringing in a new DOF with fresh ideas. I've no doubt JR is an incredible intelligent guy and could be an asset to KP/Top, but as DOF we are in massive decline and repeating mistakes over and over.

Right but the issue as I see it is simple, Ricardo is more than capable of overlapping on the wing, Jordan James is more than capable of underlapping centrally in place of Ndidi, Thomas/VK/Aluko are more than capable of overlapping Mavididi/Monga. Ndidi and KDH were not naturals in that role, but their movement created space for Mavididi, Fatawu and Vardy. Ndidi was a bang bang average 8, but his simple channel runs created space for the players that were great in their position. All Jordan James/Ricardo need to do is create space for Fatawu to run at 1 defender instead of 2-3. My point is less about the quality of the individuals making the runs, but the fact the runs were being made, Ndidi made absolutely loads of errors whenever he ran through the channel between Fatawu/Vardy, often his crossing at the byline was awful, but what he did do was create space and that's what we are desperate for. We don't need to specifically sign a number 8, we just need James to be instructed to make similar runs to create space. I know we are a downgrade on what Enzo had, but these professional footballers imo are perfectly capable of offering an overlap.

This was the exact issue I was angry about under Enzo, the difference is, he was smart enough to have 4 players in the system that were instructed to over/underlap, so even though we were too slow with the ball at times to play centrally because of the inevitable deep block that we invited, we had alternatives. When Fatawu was being doubled up on, Ricardo or Ndidi would run the channels to open up space, sometimes both players would which would open up space for Vardy. On the other side it was KDH/LB doing the overlap/underlap for Mavididi. Under Marti it barely happens, our best talent have zero space to operate in unless we are hitting them on the counter, and more often than not that counter attack is too slow to matter.

I think deep down most fans feel this way. If he brought SW in or even NP as Director of Football (health permitting) and gave them control over the footballing side, then came out with an honest interview of his own mistakes and how he is going to rectify where the club is, most would be prepared to give Top some time.

Yeah I think it's a mixture of not creating enough clear cut chances then missing them when we do, costing us dearly at the moment. It feels like every game is on a knife edge, we go 1-0 up and often it feels more likely we will huff and puff then concede rather than go on to finish the game off.

His tactical system is doing a great job of stifling our opportunity to create clear cut chances even when we have a player overload. The players are to blame for missing individual chances and making errors during an attack, the manager is responsible for how we approach an attack, and he's proving to be awful at it.

If the board are still blindly obsessed by this god awful football, i'd rather take Puel than Martin.

Maybe not. But if we give them the ball in the box they might be able to do something with it. Instead we ONLY pass it to Mavididi or Fatawu and then pass it sideways and backwards for 5 minutes, before finally passing it into the striker who is now surrounded by 4 players. The strikers are bad, the system is making them worse. Do you think Vardy would be scoring freely in this system?

Every single year, time and time again managers prove that with the right system, you can take a fairly average bunch (with a couple of stars) and turn them into a well-oiled machine that exceeds expectations. Millwall at the moment have signed a few very good players that could make the step up, but overall they have many players that are steady at this level, look at where they are and how they are performing, because Alex Neil is getting the best out of them, he is improving every player by 5%. Nigel Pearson 2014 - "If everyone improves by a couple of percent, it very quickly adds up. That is really what it's about" Good managers at this level like Alex Neil know how to do that, they adapt the system to make each player improve a few percent. Marti on the other hand, has so far proved he's only "pragmatic" within his own very narrow ideology, reminds me of Rachel Reeves, he's created a straight jacket for himself with his obsession with this style, and he's now essentially hampering the entire squad by trying to make players play a system they are not very good at. Most teams in this league would take Monga, Winks, Fatawu, Mavididi, James, Ricardo, & Vestergaard, then players like BDCR, Faes, Ayew, Soumare are the sorts of players that managers like Alex Neil would be able to work with and find a way to improve their contribution. Right now, Marti is doing the opposite, he's stifled the very poor attack we had and somehow made it regress with his rigid constraints. How can Fatawu produce magic when he's doubled up on every game and has nobody providing an over or underlap to create space? How can the strikers produce goals when the only time they receive the ball, they are 25 yards out with their back to goal and 4 players surrounding them because we took so long to transition from defence to attack that the opposition had ages to form a deep block. It's the same old, same old boring predictable football that the vast majority of possession-obsessed managers employ. Very few actually manage to make the system work fluidly, and the 10 year experiment of this system is now declining at the top of football and not growing imo. I'm monologuing. The point is, we should NEVER accept mediocrity from anyone. Many of us hold Top accountable for this mess; we hold the players accountable for this mess. Marti needs to be held accountable for now adding to this mess with his tedious brand of football. He's paid to get the most out of the squad, but he isn't doing that. In fact, his system is stifling the only talent we have. The reason I wanted Rohl so badly is that his system would have actually benefitted our best talent. I was led to believe Marti was a different brand of possession that was pragmatic; he isn't. I saw many QPR fans warning us about this.

I think we have plenty of players willing to put a shift in if the system works. Ricardo, Skipp, Okoli, Nelson, Fatawu, Mavididi, Thomas and Carranza are all players who are willing to put a shift in and try to get physical. We have seen Soumare press at times. I get your point though, I think it’s a mixture of players not fully being bought into the club and wanting to go that extra yard, and a system that doesn’t demand it. This is obviously speculation but I can’t imagine if Pearson walked in tomorrow that we wouldn’t atleast see them work harder.

If his health permits we need to be on the phone, if his health doesn't permit a full time management gig, maybe it would permit a big office upstairs with the letters "DOF" on the door.

Urs Fischer Adi Hutter (0.2% chance) Ralph Hassenhuttl Michael Carrick (meh) Carlos Carvalhal (would take but meh)

You could easily be right on that, either way, he's still actively choosing to play a way the players cannot play very well.

Yeah that's fair, appreciate you calling me out on that, what I meant by average is generally speaking on paper. You have some decent players that will absolutely play at the next level, but you've also got a lot of quite "average" players that Neil is getting the most out of, players like Jake Cooper, Steve benda, Casper De Noor, Ryan Leonard, Massimo Luongo, Tristan Crama. They are good championship players but they are playing above what me looking at you from a distance would expect, but they've played well for you as far as i can see, but even if you feel they haven't played as well as maybe I think they have, as a unit he has you excelling and everyone is working for eachother. We are the complete opposite, we have proven players like Mavididi, Monga, Fatawu, Winks, Ricardo, Vestergaard, Faes, Stolarzcyk, to some degree Ayew, Jordan James. All of these players are proven at this level and most proven at a higher level, yet the system we've adopted has them playing against their strengths for most of the match. You're absolutely flying just as I thought you would, big fan of Alex Neil (at this level) and I hope he can go on to finally prove the promise he had when he came to this league about 10 years ago.

That's a theory, but it's also rife with managers who adopt possession obsession, it happens under Martin, it happened under Enzo and has been happening with Chelsea. Sarri had the same issue, Brendan towards the end with us. But on the flip side, if they aren't capable why is Marti not understanding that and adapting to his players? Why is he not trying to bed in players like Nelson who are the long term future of this club and have the capacity to learn the system and instead persisting with players who won't be here next season? If the players are as bad as many think on here, why is he persisting with a system that is throwing away points every week?

There is a lot of hyperbole mixed in with both sides of the argument here, but the vast majority of fans do no expect us to be clear at the top of the table. We just expect us to beat a lot of what's infront of us over 90 minutes with the odd hiccup here and there. I made a thread previously you can go back look at it, I claimed Milwall were my dark horse this season. Why did I put Milwall down as a surprise challenger? Alex Neil. He knows how to get teams working for him, he knows how to make average players click as a unit, something Marti absolutely cannot do. We have better players than most teams in this division when they are on form, the issue is, the system we have adopted is making it much easier for players to not hit any form. How is Mavididi expected to hit form if he has to turn around and pass it backwards every time he gets the ball? if every time he gets to the by-line there is nobody bombing into the box to receive the cross. How can Winks hit form when every pass he makes is 5 yards and sideways, how can Fatawu hit better form if every single match he gets doubled up on and the manager is explicitly instructing players NOT to offer an overlap more often than not (he has to be instructing it at this point) How can any of our strikers hit form, when the entire system is designed around needlessly passing it around sideways, giving the opposition 20+ passes to reposition themselves into a deep block, so that every time the striker gets the ball, they have their back to goal 25 yards out with no options. Good managers like Alex Neil, or even for us, Nigel Pearson know how to get the most out of each player despite them maybe not being the best on paper, Marti cannot do that, he doesn't know how it seems. Hassenhuttl kept Southamtpon above water for far longer than they deserved. He didn't do a perfect job and he made many mistakes, but he's a huge upgrade on what we've seen so far. If we want to go all out Urs Fischer would be an instant upgrade. Go and watch how Rangers perform tomorrow under Rohl. The intensity, pressing and attacking will be far superior to anything Russel Martin put up.

Yep, I can completely see that point, and to be honest, knowing the board we will get rid of Marti and bring in Martin and things will go from bad to worse. If for example though Hassenhuttl said he would join, i'd probably take that gamble personally, but I have a very high bias against possession obsessive football personally.

Agree with all of these points, however, generally speaking the manager is in a position to somewhat offset a few of these problems on the pitch, by not playing negative, sideways, slow, predictable football whilst constantly picking favourites and seemingly happy to let the future of the club rot on the bench or not even in the squad (not that the youth are the overnight fix, but if we are doomed to mid table mediocrity under Cifuentes, atleast do it with Nelson/Aluko/Page getting regular minutes) None of the 5 points you made can be fixed overnight, the problems I mentioned which play a huge role in whether we pickup 0,1 or 3 points on a match day can be fixed overnight. If Cifuentes tomorrow decided to throw his system out of the window and adopt an attacking system along the lines of German Gegenpressing, or an attacking hybrid like Iraolas Bournemouth, we would be fighting for automatics imo. The system we are currently using is actively working against our best talents. The reason I wanted Rohl in, is because his system is aggressive and utilises wingers and a heavy overlap from multiple angles to create space for them, under Rohl, Mavididi, Fatawu and Monga would be unlocked. Under Cifuentes they are in chains, either having to pass backwards, or having to beat 3 players to get a shot away because they have zero support other than backwards or sideways. Again, completely agree with everything you've said, but none of them are an excuse for Cifuentes playing this awful brand of football that puts constraints on our best attacking talent. He promised attacking football, he promised youth, he promised always pushing for another goal even if we are winning comfortably, he promised players playing on merit. He's delivered none of that.

Professional football players unable to beat the first man on a corner is one of life’s great mysteries, crazily enough it isn’t just us, it seems these days 75% of teams have the same issue.

All we can do is hope that given the window we had, we have enough money to make a move if we continue to underdeliver.

This. Pretty much every single time the striker gets the ball to his feet, it’s when we’ve dithered with the ball for 15-20+ passes, the opposition have had 3 working days to form a deep block, then we pass the ball into the strikers feet, 25 yards out, back to goal, with 6 players behind them. And then fans scapegoat them all game. Our strikers have been poor everyone can see that, but they get given absolutely dogwater service, Vardy would be on maybe 1-2 goals max in this system because he would have finished Carranzas 1 on 1 from a few games ago, but beyond that, we just never play through balls in and allow the striker to sit on the last defender, all Marti wants us to do is pass to Fatawu and hope he creates magic, and if he can’t, the last resort is the pass it into a striker and expect him to beat 5 defenders. More often than not it ends up being like the Carranza situation a couple of games ago where he got the ball to his feet with 3 players around him and barely any passing options on apart from backwards, so he took a risk and try to push the ball into space to open himself up for a shot, lost the ball and we conceded on the break. People hammered Carranza for that, whilst completely ignoring the fact that as a striker he shouldn’t be forced into that situation in the first place. The system is the root cause of our attacking issue, NOT the strikers. Don’t get me wrong, even if we fixed the system they will probably still struggle to deliver 15+ goals, but they will struggle to get 5+ under Cifuentes ball.

Big issue is, it's slim pickings out there right now, the managers that would genuinely improve us likely won't come, we needed to pull the trigger early on RVN. Right now, Urs Fischer would be a massive scalp imo, probably won't come. Ralph Hassenhuttl imo would play better football than we currently are witnessing despite the rot in the playerbase, I didn't really want Dyche, but right now i'd take him over watching sideways ball any longer. Apart from that, it would need to be another gamble.