The Migrant Crisis Troll-Free Thread.

[MC Prussian]

You really are extraordinary when it comes to ignoring what you don't chose to acknowledge. That and other factors makes me suspect you're a Muslim. Or am I mistaken?

And how ironic that you accuse me of writing too much, put words in my sentences that aren't there or implied,then ask me to repeat myself!

Virtually all your questions have already been answered in one thread or another - and in detail up to the point where individual identities are protected...including what I would do about migrants.

But, to offer specifics to your enquiries (which actually have nothing to do with migrants).

Yes, I have helped several individual Muslims and their families (plus destitute Brits and a Nigerian family) - in various ways - over a period of about five years. Cost? More than enough!

I've also helped Muslim and Chinese students learn English (over a considerable period) provided access to study facilities for a foreign student, support for a destitute family living in a garage in Sousse, Tunisia and funded a reportedly life-saving operation for a Tunisian mother plus other medical expenses for people overseas (and a few etceteras).

Almost all the people where there's direct contact (Tunisian, Chinese, Kashmiri and Jordanian) know they are welcome to stay with me or my family at any time. It would be a joy to see them. Others I've never met or spoken with. Food and shelter is a given should they want it. Two have visited on various occasions so I hope that's sufficiently unambiguous.

It doesn't mean I wouldn't be extremely firm and cautious about all immigration, particularly from places whose citizens might not identify with our country and its wellbeing. For those who would fit my criteria, they'd be welcome if our services and infrastructure could cope and/or I was convinced they'd be an asset.

My help's been specific. I don't contribute anything to appeals or suchlike. However I'd fully support any UK levy for helping provide food/shelter/medical assistance etc for displaced people in Arabic countries willing to provide resettlement facilities.

You insult me regarding my continental connections.

My youngest son will likely marry his long-time Polish girlfriend and speaks her language perfectly adequately. I've long looked on her as my daughter and all my close family is to and fro from the continent on a regular basis, one grandson being currently at university in Madrid with his father there visiting him as we speak.

So I'm hardly detached from that world just because I no longer find foreign travel particularly appealing.

However, while willing for us to be considered an ally of Europe (as it stands) and a largely co-operative but independent trading partner, I am firmly against the EU and have no wish for our nation to be federalised under any umbrella.

 

First of all, congratulations for finally coming forward without sugarcoating your ideas or your intentions!

 

But you do acknowledge by writing a full essay on topics that have nothing to do with the main thread, you do realize that you confirm what I've been saying all along.

 

You do not specify what background the people you've helped with come from. Are/were they all poor? Were they desperate? Were they proper refugees? Or were you merely acting as a private teacher who took in a considerable sum of money to help affluent foreigners? If so, their fate has nothing to do with the current situation, with masses of people fleeing poverty, extortion or worse... war.

 

Helping one particular family in Tunisia also doesn't change the fact that we are presented with a massive wave of mass migration today. Again, you also don't specify when that was or the context of your help. Pleasing oneself's ego with foreign aid is nothing in comparison to the amount of fleeing Syrians, Kurds, Egyptians, Senegalese, Libyans in search for a better life abroad.

 

They see the Western World and its consumerist nature and want a share of it - who can blame them if they move towards us? They want what we're having! What other options do they have? The Saudis, Kuwaits and Qatari don't seem to be so welcoming. I wonder why...

 

I salute you for standing firm on your immovable chair of opinion, but you can't just deny all current immigrants from the Near East entry just because you don't want them in your own country. They will arrive in the UK eventually, a portion of it. I do agree that there need to be security and passport/identity checks along the way, but once they're here, they're here. What else do you want to do? Play the dick card and have them deported to another EU country? That would only add fuel to the forces that want the concept of the Union abandoned - and that obviously includes you. All members of the EU should share the weight of the migrants - according to their respective country's size, of course.

 

You come across as somewhat xenophobic, despite your efforts at disguising it.

It doesn't mean I wouldn't be extremely firm and cautious about all immigration, particularly from places whose citizens might not identify with our country and its wellbeing.

Yeah, alright. But what about the "foreigners" that are already living in the UK or have done so for years now? They all pose no threat at all? All of them interested in the "wellbeing" of your country? Are all UK citizens interested in the wellbeing of their respective country? You talk about danger from the outside, but what about the inbred one?

[Thracian]

I'm g

First of all, congratulations for finally coming forward without sugarcoating your ideas or your intentions!

 

But you do acknowledge by writing a full essay on topics that have nothing to do with the main thread, you do realize that you confirm what I've been saying all along.

 

You do not specify what background the people you've helped with come from. Are/were they all poor? Were they desperate? Were they proper refugees? Or were you merely acting as a private teacher who took in a considerable sum of money to help affluent foreigners? If so, their fate has nothing to do with the current situation, with masses of people fleeing poverty, extortion or worse... war.

 

Helping one particular family in Tunisia also doesn't change the fact that we are presented with a massive wave of mass migration today. Again, you also don't specify when that was or the context of your help. Pleasing oneself's ego with foreign aid is nothing in comparison to the amount of fleeing Syrians, Kurds, Egyptians, Senegalese, Libyans in search for a better life abroad.

 

They see the Western World and its consumerist nature and want a share of it - who can blame them if they move towards us? They want what we're having! What other options do they have? The Saudis, Kuwaits and Qatari don't seem to be so welcoming. I wonder why...

 

I salute you for standing firm on your immovable chair of opinion, but you can't just deny all current immigrants from the Near East entry just because you don't want them in your own country. They will arrive in the UK eventually, a portion of it. I do agree that there need to be security and passport/identity checks along the way, but once they're here, they're here. What else do you want to do? Play the dick card and have them deported to another EU country? That would only add fuel to the forces that want the concept of the Union abandoned - and that obviously includes you. All members of the EU should share the weight of the migrants - according to their respective country's size, of course.

 

You come across as somewhat xenophobic, despite your efforts at disguising it.

Yeah, alright. But what about the "foreigners" that are already living in the UK or have done so for years now? They all pose no threat at all? All of them interested in the "wellbeing" of your country? Are all UK citizens interested in the wellbeing of their respective country? You talk about danger from the outside, but what about the inbred one?

I'm glad you've acknowledged the "inbred" danger and confirmed the unforgiveable folly of open-door immigration and the inevitable risks. It pretty much shatters your argument completely.

What would I do? I know exactly what I'd do but it's of no consequence because I'm not and never will be the man making the decisions. If I had been, I'd doubt that many of today's problems would even exist in the UK.

Zenophobia? There's the badge of a Leftie and their desperate need to define people, however inaccurately. For the umpteenth time my views have nothing to do with foreigners per se. Just those I'd consider a risk. Any doubts and I'd err on the side of caution.

I don't deny the likelihood of "risk" immigrants coming into this country but they wouldn't come with my blessing and it's my belief that, in the event of a mistake, those responsible for that mistake should be answerable - just as Morrisons are made answerable for their staff.

You can lamely argue "injustice", but if you're going to promote the notion of accountability, I'd say immigration should be right at the top, given the risks and potential consequences, or don't you give a shit about that and somehow believe that a Morrisons staff member uupsetting a customer might be worse that the mass killing of a terrorist?

In asking me yet more questions I notice you still don't acknowledge that you're a Muslim with your own agenda. In our country "declaring an interest" might be respectful.

I don't need your sanctioning of the "help" I give to anyone nor do I need a motive. Help, rather like love, is almost inevitably diluted by conditions and I consider your questions on the subject insulting.

Far from defending our continued membership you actually highlight important reasons for leaving the EU - not least the gun the organisation holds to our head and the danger it forces us to accept in promoting its flawed philosophies concerning immigration and freedom of movement (among much, much, more).

Your view that all countries should share the burden of immigration might be defensible if it wasn't so dangerously irresponsible but, like so much of what you say, it really emphasises, yet again, how we need to wave goodbye to the EU and any unwanted "obligations" such as you so kindly outline and make our own decisions.

As for consumerism - if that's what the people you mention want (and, again, you seem to be speaking for a lot of people you don't know) then they should shape such a destiny in their own lands for all that I'm not sure it actually equates with true Islamic values at all and it certainly doesn't equate to mine other than as a means to extremely modest ends. http://understandquran.com/islam-consumerism.html

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Can't believe no-ones posted this yet... This was something you were surely expecting no?

[Buce]

I'm g

I'm glad you've acknowledged the "inbred" danger and confirmed the unforgiveable folly of open-door immigration and the inevitable risks. It pretty much shatters your argument completely.

What would I do? I know exactly what I'd do but it's of no consequence because I'm not and never will be the man making the decisions. If I had been, I'd doubt that many of today's problems would even exist in the UK.

Zenophobia? There's the badge of a Leftie and their desperate need to define people, however inaccurately. For the umpteenth time my views have nothing to do with foreigners per se. Just those I'd consider a risk. Any doubts and I'd err on the side of caution.

I don't deny the likelihood of "risk" immigrants coming into this country but they wouldn't come with my blessing and it's my belief that, in the event of a mistake, those responsible for that mistake should be answerable - just as Morrisons are made answerable for their staff.

You can lamely argue "injustice", but if you're going to promote the notion of accountability, I'd say immigration should be right at the top, given the risks and potential consequences, or don't you give a shit about that and somehow believe that a Morrisons staff member uupsetting a customer might be worse that the mass killing of a terrorist?

In asking me yet more questions I notice you still don't acknowledge that you're a Muslim with your own agenda. In our country "declaring an interest" might be respectful.

I don't need your sanctioning of the "help" I give to anyone nor do I need a motive. Help, rather like love, is almost inevitably diluted by conditions and I consider your questions on the subject insulting.

Far from defending our continued membership you actually highlight important reasons for leaving the EU - not least the gun the organisation holds to our head and the danger it forces us to accept in promoting its flawed philosophies concerning immigration and freedom of movement (among much, much, more).

Your view that all countries should share the burden of immigration might be defensible if it wasn't so dangerously irresponsible but, like so much of what you say, it really emphasises, yet again, how we need to wave goodbye to the EU and any unwanted "obligations" such as you so kindly outline and make our own decisions.

As for consumerism - if that's what the people you mention want (and, again, you seem to be speaking for a lot of people you don't know) then they should shape such a destiny in their own lands for all that I'm not sure it actually equates with true Islamic values at all and it certainly doesn't equate to mine other than as a means to extremely modest ends. http://understandquran.com/islam-consumerism.html

Humour us - I'm sure we'd all like to know.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

I can't be bothered to write a long post but I have to say I'm astounded at how some people can shrug off so easily that we might be importing people who want to do us harm just because "we're helping more" or it's "only a small percentage" - even if it's 1% (conservative estimate by most charities) that would mean Germany would be taking in around 15,000 Jihadi's. We must have lost control of our minds to be so liberal about it, you can tell we've had 70 years of peace to be so complacent about national security.

Look at the carnage just a handful have brought to Paris on two occasions.

I think most are saying the possible 'dangers' should not be used as an excuse for complete inaction and/or refusing to accept anyone coming in that has a genuine case...

And on a slightly different perspective of the said issue - even if people have successfully travelled to this land with the intention to commit a terrorist act... actually going about and doing such a thing is going to an almighty challenge when they're going to a place that is completely alien to them.

As an organisation ISIS understand and have actively campaigned more recently for supporters based in western countries to complete attacks In their home lands as that is a much more efficient strategy.

Sending 'agents' abroad poses greater risks to their inner sanctum and the flow of their operations in Syria and Iraq, therefore the hidden terrorists being talked about are more likely to be sympathisers with no great contacts or funding.

I imagine the greater terrorist threat would be from people already based inside a country rather than those who travel to a new land.

[MC Prussian]

What has reporting such crimes "across the world" got to do with the reporting of crime in this country? It is accepted we have crime and unreported crime committed here by own own citizens. It's a pity. I wish there wasn't any. But they're our citizens and we have to deal with them. What we don't have to do is import more crime - and particularly serious crime - along with everything that goes with it.

 

The chicken and the egg question - what was first? The import of crime or the export thereof?

 

The UK does tend to send arms deliveries to a certain group of countries, thus adding fuel to the fire:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/interactive/2012/jul/13/defence-military-uk-arms-exports-middle-east-interactive

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-has-sold-56bn-of-military-hardware-to-saudi-arabia-under-david-cameron-research-reveals-a6797861.html

Deliberately?

 

The great thing about arms exports to countries not directly affected by warzones is that you then relinquish the control over where your arms exports end up.

There's no control over whom a country like Saudia Arabia , Bahrain or Oman sell that material to in a second step.

 

You talk about "importing" evil and crime and whatnot. But what's the source of it all? I find your approach to dealing with the situation rather simplistic, and as stated above, somewhat xenophobic. Countries or constructs like the UK have no issue exporting arms to crisis zones, but find it rather difficult dealing with the aftermath, mass migration.

 

Well, if that isn't both ironic and moronic.

[MC Prussian]

I'm g

I'm glad you've acknowledged the "inbred" danger and confirmed the unforgiveable folly of open-door immigration and the inevitable risks. It pretty much shatters your argument completely.

What would I do? I know exactly what I'd do but it's of no consequence because I'm not and never will be the man making the decisions. If I had been, I'd doubt that many of today's problems would even exist in the UK.

Zenophobia? There's the badge of a Leftie and their desperate need to define people, however inaccurately. For the umpteenth time my views have nothing to do with foreigners per se. Just those I'd consider a risk. Any doubts and I'd err on the side of caution.

I don't deny the likelihood of "risk" immigrants coming into this country but they wouldn't come with my blessing and it's my belief that, in the event of a mistake, those responsible for that mistake should be answerable - just as Morrisons are made answerable for their staff.

You can lamely argue "injustice", but if you're going to promote the notion of accountability, I'd say immigration should be right at the top, given the risks and potential consequences, or don't you give a shit about that and somehow believe that a Morrisons staff member uupsetting a customer might be worse that the mass killing of a terrorist?

In asking me yet more questions I notice you still don't acknowledge that you're a Muslim with your own agenda. In our country "declaring an interest" might be respectful.

I don't need your sanctioning of the "help" I give to anyone nor do I need a motive. Help, rather like love, is almost inevitably diluted by conditions and I consider your questions on the subject insulting.

Far from defending our continued membership you actually highlight important reasons for leaving the EU - not least the gun the organisation holds to our head and the danger it forces us to accept in promoting its flawed philosophies concerning immigration and freedom of movement (among much, much, more).

Your view that all countries should share the burden of immigration might be defensible if it wasn't so dangerously irresponsible but, like so much of what you say, it really emphasises, yet again, how we need to wave goodbye to the EU and any unwanted "obligations" such as you so kindly outline and make our own decisions.

As for consumerism - if that's what the people you mention want (and, again, you seem to be speaking for a lot of people you don't know) then they should shape such a destiny in their own lands for all that I'm not sure it actually equates with true Islamic values at all and it certainly doesn't equate to mine other than as a means to extremely modest ends. http://understandquran.com/islam-consumerism.html

 

Again - just an alliteration of fancy words. In what way does me acknowledging controlling immigration as the way forward "shatter my argument completely"?

I've never said the UK or other members of the EU should allow for uncontrolled immigration from the Near East!

 

You start a sentence, a claim, and then don't take it further. That's the sign of a talker, not a mover. You're doing an excellent job - in the rhetoric department. Finding points to support your argument is nothing you seem to have any interest in, so why participating in a debate in a first place. You hardly ever mention specific means or strategies of how to combat the problem of mass migration.

 

don't you give a shit about that and somehow believe that a Morrisons staff member uupsetting a customer might be worse that the mass killing of a terrorist?

Again, incoherent ramblings of an old man coupled with the desperate attempt at fishing.

If I only I knew where you get these ideas from.

 

Or may I continue?

In asking me yet more questions I notice you still don't acknowledge that you're a Muslim with your own agenda

You're starting to make me laugh - in a tragic way. Your constructs, your argumentation is nothing but a shallow output of words. You call that "taking a stance", I call it desperate attempts at talking around the subject instead of talking about it. But please continue to believe your own fantasies. I guess it must be nice living in a dreamland where all Britains are righteous and all immigrants that walk the land these days potentially evil. What a way of looking at the world, the world of a cynic.

[Rincewind]

Somebody read this out tonight at The Word. It is called Home and written a by a poet called Warsan Shire and the words should give people something to think about.

 

no one leaves home unless
home is the mouth of a shark
you only run for the border
when you see the whole city running as well

your neighbors running faster than you
breath bloody in their throats
the boy you went to school with
who kissed you dizzy behind the old tin factory
is holding a gun bigger than his body
you only leave home
when home won’t let you stay.

no one leaves home unless home chases you
fire under feet
hot blood in your belly
it’s not something you ever thought of doing
until the blade burnt threats into
your neck
and even then you carried the anthem under
your breath
only tearing up your passport in an airport toilets
sobbing as each mouthful of paper
made it clear that you wouldn’t be going back.

you have to understand,
that no one puts their children in a boat
unless the water is safer than the land
no one burns their palms
under trains
beneath carriages
no one spends days and nights in the stomach of a truck
feeding on newspaper unless the miles travelled
means something more than journey.
no one crawls under fences
no one wants to be beaten
pitied

no one chooses refugee camps
or strip searches where your
body is left aching
or prison,
because prison is safer
than a city of fire
and one prison guard
in the night
is better than a truckload
of men who look like your father
no one could take it
no one could stomach it
no one skin would be tough enough

the
go home blacks
refugees
dirty immigrants
asylum seekers
sucking our country dry
niggers with their hands out
they smell strange
savage
messed up their country and now they want
to mess ours up
how do the words
the dirty looks
roll off your backs
maybe because the blow is softer
than a limb torn off

or the words are more tender
than fourteen men between
your legs
or the insults are easier
to swallow
than rubble
than bone
than your child body
in pieces.
i want to go home,
but home is the mouth of a shark
home is the barrel of the gun
and no one would leave home
unless home chased you to the shore
unless home told you
to quicken your legs
leave your clothes behind
crawl through the desert
wade through the oceans
drown
save
be hunger
beg
forget pride
your survival is more important

no one leaves home until home is a sweaty voice in your ear
saying-
leave,
run away from me now
i dont know what i’ve become
but i know that anywhere
is safer than here

 

[Merging Cultures]

Is anyone against refugees being allowed in? I don't think I've seen anyone complain about legitimate refugees.

Economic migrants, like me, should have to get visas, like I do.

[ozleicester]

Is anyone against refugees being allowed in? I don't think I've seen anyone complain about legitimate refugees.

Economic migrants, like me, should have to get visas, like I do.

Wow.. you should really see the racist xenophobic ravings of the australian government to see.

 

We have just elected a member who is asking for cameras to be installed inside Mosque's.

[Rincewind]

Wow.. you should really see the racist xenophobic ravings of the australian government to see.

 

We have just elected a member who is asking for cameras to be installed inside Mosque's.

Is he related to Donald Trump?

 

I would not say anyone is against immigration but there have been posts saying the ones escaping a war torn country are not all genuine and sometimes the media portrays this. The poem is a view from the other side.

 

Edit.

 

Other POV not from the graveyard.

[ozleicester]

Is he she related to Donald Trump?

I would not say anyone is against immigration but there have been posts saying the ones escaping a war torn country are not all genuine and sometimes the media portrays this. The poem is a view from the other side.

[Alf Bentley]

Is anyone against refugees being allowed in? I don't think I've seen anyone complain about legitimate refugees.

Economic migrants, like me, should have to get visas, like I do.

 

 

That's a fair distinction to make. I'm sure many people will agree.

 

But I'm equally sure that many people do not make such a distinction - or may even be more hostile to refugees (who tend to stand out more physically and culturally).

 

Farage presumably didn't believe that everybody was happy about refugees arriving or his notorious "Breaking Point" poster would have featured a long line of French bankers, German I.T. consultants, Polish plumbers & Romanian fruit pickers.

It didn't. His poster seeking to limit EU immigration featured a long line of refugees of African, Asian and Middle Eastern appearance arriving in Slovenia (some economic migrants, no doubt, but many refugees from war). 

 

There's a case for better control of economic migration and better measures to counteract the social pressures and tensions that it can cause (funded by Govt and/or EU). But if you seriously believe that everyone would be unhappy to see Poles arriving, but happy to see large numbers of Syrian refugees coming in, I reckon you're mistaken - and Farage apparently agrees.

 

 

Excellent poem that Ken posted there. He sometimes gets a lot of stick on here - some of it justified, some not. Not many people post stuff like that poem, though. Thanks, Ken.

[Rincewind]

Thanks Alf. When the woman read it I thought she made a great job of it. She was from somalia and I believe she said she was a teacher. I wanted to ask her who wrote it at the end but she had gone. So when I got home I google Somali poem home and luckily it was near the top. On the blog site the poem is split into sections. It came out as one piece when I copy and pasted.

The headline act was from India or rather from an Indian family and spoke several languages. She read a poem about how it was when she came to Leicester and was picked on. Not because of her colour but because of her South Yorkshire accent.

One of her poems told when she was at school and the teacher put aunt and uncle on the blackboard and she put her hand up to ask for clarification. Mother or father's side. In Gunantara (sp) there were several names.

 

Sorry I went off topic.

[Alf Bentley]

Eritrean refugee discovered (alive) inside small suitcase at Swiss-Italian border. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/07/man-smuggles-himself-inside-suitcase-train-switzerland-italy-eritrea

 

 

[Buce]

Eritrean refugee discovered (alive) inside small suitcase at Swiss-Italian border.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/07/man-smuggles-himself-inside-suitcase-train-switzerland-italy-eritrea

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHwg8-M9FV0

"Did you pack this bag yourself, sir?"..

[ozleicester]

If only the governments who caused this horrific disaster, that has killed hundreds of thousands and made millions into refugees... could admit their error, accept their responsibility,.....and then spend whatever it takes to give these poor tortured people the decent life they are entitled to, and we took away.