Huge leak exposes elite's tax havens

[lgfualol]

Americans involved will be revealed soon according to the editor behind the leaks

[Alf Bentley]

All this reminded me of the song "Offshore banking business" by The Members....

 

Produced in 1979, I think.... 

 

Almost enough to make you cynical when the politicians say that they're going to sort it out (though someone should try):

 

[lgfualol]

[Thracian]

How predictable that a few on here - and Corbyn of course - are trying to make much of any Conservatives who might be embroiled in the controversy of tax havening their money...as if it's somehow a party political thing.

 

It isn't and I'm a bit suprised no-one's mentioned the Chinese communist involvement, given that 300,000 Communist Party officials were punished only last year as a result of an anti-corruption campaign, and families of leading officials are implicated in the "Panama" revelations showing that the problem would seem to run even deepeer. So much for "everyone being equal" and better off under the sort of administration so many Labour Lefties seem to champion.   

 

Don't doubt that I think it abhorent and as hypocritical as politicians urging the rest of us to accept financial austerity while voting themselves a rise which is way above inflation while blandly continuing to benefit from all sorts of perks they should never be entitled to in any case. But the party politicisation is pathetic.

 

Lots of people with spare millions will have harboured their assets in tax havens - because it may well be perfectly legal and therefore the best way of hanging onto that money (and perhaps even financing projects of their own choice rather than seeing it wasted on overseas aid or something else they might disagree with, if it were sucked into the jaws of national taxation.

 

It won't be just Conservatives protecting their money. It might be argued that everyone else with any sense will have done it so long as they're entitled too - and that successive governments have had every opportunity to combat the practice even if it  might be like shooting their colleagues in the foot. .               

     

Because anyone pretending that corruption is Party political is simply being selective. It's everywhere from top to bottom and in our society no less than many others.

 

As for Corbyn pulling at the heartstrings with his reference to all the tax haven money being denied to things like the NHS I've spent much of this week seeing a Leicester hospital at work this week and its been truly lamentable. If that really is the best we can do, the whole show needs a rethink before any more money is committed to such a shambles.  

 

One patient spent nearly three days (and counting) sitting in bed doing next-to-nothing because they thought she was an outpatient rather than an inpatient and therefore hadn't even been scheduled for the tests she needed let alone taken them, despite the seriousness of her situation. It's so basic it's pathetic. Communication's abyssmal and that was just for starters.  

         

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-35962326

 

 

As for Russia... another great bastion of communism .... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35918845

[Buce]

Of course it's party political.

The government have made a big deal about cracking down on tax avoidance - how can they be trusted to do so if they have a vested interest?

Everything else you have said is your standard strawman answer: what other countries' leaders do is irrelevant - we - as voters and British citizens have a right to know what our politicians are up to.

[Rincewind]

If there is a shortage of tax being received from a section due to evasion  then there is less taxpayers money to fund things like the NHS and schools. Is that what Corbyn was saying? How terrible and evil of him.

How dare he raise concerns about the state of the NHS rather than supporting those that use their influences to avoid paying UK taxes which goes towards things that they do not 'believe' in so it is better if they keep all their money to themselves.

I wish I could do that and say I do not agree with tax being spent on something like roads or Royalty so I am not paying any, Thracian can pay my share.

While the very same people that do this are among the biggest donors to political parties they will carry on.

[Buce]

Several Tory donors implicated:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/04/tory-donors-links-to-offshore-firms-revealed-in-leaked-panama-papers

Hey, but we're all in it together. Right?

[Rincewind]

Yes apparently we are.

 

Cant post an image

[Buce]

Cameron left 'dangerously exposed'.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/05/david-cameron-left-dangerously-exposed-by-panama-papers-fallout

[Alf Bentley]

Cameron left 'dangerously exposed'.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/05/david-cameron-left-dangerously-exposed-by-panama-papers-fallout

 

 

The Rt. Hon. Member is dangerously exposed after a huge leak?

 

Well they do compare him to Flashman. This p-rick needs to act more in the public convenience. 

[ozleicester]

[Rincewind]

The Rt. Hon. Member is dangerously exposed after a huge leak?

 

Well they do compare him to Flashman. This p-rick needs to act more in the public convenience. 

[Buce]

The Rt. Hon. Member is dangerously exposed after a huge leak?

Well they do compare him to Flashman. This p-rick needs to act more in the public convenience.

PMQs could be interesting, this week - Cameron needs to provide some answers, and Corbyn must in cistern him giving them.

[Guest MattP]

PMQs could be interesting, this week - Cameron needs to provide some answers, and Corbyn must in cistern him giving them.

 

Next Wednesday, although on recent form Corbyn will probably ask six questions about a Bus shelter in Newcastle.

 

I don't understand why Cameron is paying for the sins of his father though, even more strange is some of the people giving him abuse for it were the same ones shouting at everyone how disgraceful the Daily Mail were for using the political opinions of Ralph Miliband to attack Ed.

 

We clearly do need to do something about this but how? If people want to send their money to a back in Belize, Panama or the Caymans they will, these countries aren't going to destroy their own economies by stopping it whatever pressure we put on them.

[Buce]

Next Wednesday, although on recent form Corbyn will probably ask six questions about a Bus shelter in Newcastle.

I don't understand why Cameron is paying for the sins of his father though, even more strange is some of the people giving him abuse for it were the same ones shouting at everyone how disgraceful the Daily Mail were for using the political opinions of Ralph Miliband to attack Ed.

We clearly do need to do something about this but how? If people want to send their money to a back in Belize, Panama or the Caymans they will, these countries aren't going to destroy their own economies by stopping it whatever pressure we put on them.

He's not paying for the 'sins of his father', but it's a reasonable question to ask if he has gained - or stands to gain - financially from his father's involvement.

This is relevant because if he has/will it demonstates a conflict of interests when he talks about cracking down on tax avoidance/evasion. The voters have a right to know the facts so that they can make up their own minds whether it is acceptable or not.

[MC Prussian]

Next Wednesday, although on recent form Corbyn will probably ask six questions about a Bus shelter in Newcastle.

 

I don't understand why Cameron is paying for the sins of his father though, even more strange is some of the people giving him abuse for it were the same ones shouting at everyone how disgraceful the Daily Mail were for using the political opinions of Ralph Miliband to attack Ed.

 

We clearly do need to do something about this but how? If people want to send their money to a back in Belize, Panama or the Caymans they will, these countries aren't going to destroy their own economies by stopping it whatever pressure we put on them.

I think it's not just down to the "economic system". The platform provided to these investors, be it companies or individuals, in order to hide money from their native state aren't illegal per se.

It's that these constructs in Panama, Delaware et al. can be used to whitewash dirty money or hide tax evasion money. And that's the criminal part.

 

If you're going to attack criminal activities linked to Mossack Fonseca et al., I don't think Panama's economy on the whole would be suffering that much.

The percentage of "foul" investments hasn't yet been disclosed/determined, has it?

[Guest MattP]

He's not paying for the 'sins of his father', but it's a reasonable question to ask if he has gained - or stands to gain - financially from his father's involvement.

This is relevant because if he has/will it demonstates a conflict of interests when he talks about cracking down on tax avoidance/evasion. The voters have a right to know the facts so that they can make up their own minds whether it is acceptable or not.

 

I don't think it is, that's his business, if he says he wants to clamp down on tax avoidance he should be judged on how well his government does on that. As for the second part, would he even know anyway? I have absolutely no idea what I stand to gain from my father in the future and wouldn't even want to know unless he wanted to tell me.

 

Personal and politics should be left apart, the Mail overstepped the line when they went on about Ralph Miliband for days and I think Corbyn would be overstepping the line if he started to ask Cameron about what his father will leave him when he dies.

[Jon the Hat]

To be fair Mr Cameron senior is already dead no?  So Dave should have a decent idea if he benefits.  It is public knowledge that his profession involved tax minimisation strategies, so that shouldn't be a shock.

 

This Government have done way more on tax evasion and avoidance than any other UK government ever has.

[Guest MattP]

To be fair Mr Cameron senior is already dead no?  So Dave should have a decent idea if he benefits.  It is public knowledge that his profession involved tax minimisation strategies, so that shouldn't be a shock

 

Fair point I didn't know that.

[Buce]

I don't think it is, that's his business, if he says he wants to clamp down on tax avoidance he should be judged on how well his government does on that. As for the second part, would he even know anyway? I have absolutely no idea what I stand to gain from my father in the future and wouldn't even want to know unless he wanted to tell me.

Personal and politics should be left apart, the Mail overstepped the line when they went on about Ralph Miliband for days and I think Corbyn would be overstepping the line if he started to ask Cameron about what his father will leave him when he dies.

Cameron snr is dead, isn't he?

[RobHawk]

How predictable that a few on here - and Corbyn of course - are trying to make much of any Conservatives who might be embroiled in the controversy of tax havening their money...as if it's somehow a party political thing.

 

It isn't and I'm a bit suprised no-one's mentioned the Chinese communist involvement, given that 300,000 Communist Party officials were punished only last year as a result of an anti-corruption campaign, and families of leading officials are implicated in the "Panama" revelations showing that the problem would seem to run even deepeer. So much for "everyone being equal" and better off under the sort of administration so many Labour Lefties seem to champion.   

 

Don't doubt that I think it abhorent and as hypocritical as politicians urging the rest of us to accept financial austerity while voting themselves a rise which is way above inflation while blandly continuing to benefit from all sorts of perks they should never be entitled to in any case. But the party politicisation is pathetic.

 

Lots of people with spare millions will have harboured their assets in tax havens - because it may well be perfectly legal and therefore the best way of hanging onto that money (and perhaps even financing projects of their own choice rather than seeing it wasted on overseas aid or something else they might disagree with, if it were sucked into the jaws of national taxation.

 

It won't be just Conservatives protecting their money. It might be argued that everyone else with any sense will have done it so long as they're entitled too - and that successive governments have had every opportunity to combat the practice even if it  might be like shooting their colleagues in the foot. .               

     

Because anyone pretending that corruption is Party political is simply being selective. It's everywhere from top to bottom and in our society no less than many others.

 

As for Corbyn pulling at the heartstrings with his reference to all the tax haven money being denied to things like the NHS I've spent much of this week seeing a Leicester hospital at work this week and its been truly lamentable. If that really is the best we can do, the whole show needs a rethink before any more money is committed to such a shambles.  

 

One patient spent nearly three days (and counting) sitting in bed doing next-to-nothing because they thought she was an outpatient rather than an inpatient and therefore hadn't even been scheduled for the tests she needed let alone taken them, despite the seriousness of her situation. It's so basic it's pathetic. Communication's abyssmal and that was just for starters.  

         

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-35962326

 

 

As for Russia... another great bastion of communism .... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35918845

 

I'm not a fan of Corbyn but to be fair to him hes called for an independent inquiry for all British people named - not just Cam snr. Of course he's going to ask questions and put the pressure on though - why wouldn't he. He's also called for all MP's to publish their tax returns in order to provide greater transparency and has committed to do this himself. I don't know enough about tax returns to really comment on this but it doesn't seem a bad idea to me. 

 

As for your comments on the NHS - what do you expect from a Tory Government? 

[Rincewind]

Yes it is strange criticising the NHS then criticising Corbyn for speaking out on how  it it is funded.

The last time I saw Corbyn's expenses claims it was one of the lowest in the HOP. Unlike some who claim for themselves and dept travel by limousine second homes (putting down the most valuable) and virtually everything they buy. OK nothing illegally wrong but the general public are paying for it. Corbyn and some other  MP's cyle and live in London. Boris Jonson one of them (I give him credit  for that) he buys his own suits out of his salary  and if having friends over for drinks I doubt he would put it down as work related.

It is not the claiming I object to but when they take the piss.

As for Cameron's father, his money funded his son's time at Eton which I believe is listed as a charity so not taxable. 

I am willing to be corrected on that one.

Cameron is also personal friends with the owner of a newspaper that is one of the biggest donors to the Tory party and is registered  outside the UK so not eligible to pay taxes. I may be a little  biased but I think even non-cynics's noses would be twitching at that. But it is defended by some.

Anyway my single voice will not change anything and there will always be some that abuse their positions and we the public can do sod all about it, Au revoir.

[Thracian]

If there is a shortage of tax being received from a section due to evasion  then there is less taxpayers money to fund things like the NHS and schools. Is that what Corbyn was saying? How terrible and evil of him.

How dare he raise concerns about the state of the NHS rather than supporting those that use their influences to avoid paying UK taxes which goes towards things that they do not 'believe' in so it is better if they keep all their money to themselves.

I wish I could do that and say I do not agree with tax being spent on something like roads or Royalty so I am not paying any, Thracian can pay my share.

While the very same people that do this are among the biggest donors to political parties they will carry on.

 

 

They're often also the biggest donors to good causes but i wouldn't expect you to acknowledge that. As for the NHS, throwing ever more money at something doesn't necessarily make for a better performance any more than throwing money at football teams. 

[Thracian]

 

As for your comments on the NHS - what do you expect from a Tory Government? 

 

 

Better standards than were set by Labour.  

[Alf Bentley]

I don't think it is, that's his business, if he says he wants to clamp down on tax avoidance he should be judged on how well his government does on that. As for the second part, would he even know anyway? I have absolutely no idea what I stand to gain from my father in the future and wouldn't even want to know unless he wanted to tell me.

 

Personal and politics should be left apart, the Mail overstepped the line when they went on about Ralph Miliband for days and I think Corbyn would be overstepping the line if he started to ask Cameron about what his father will leave him when he dies.

 

 

If Corbyn was benefiting personally from private, undeclared donations from trade unions, would you say that was "his business" and that he should be judged only on his policy? I wouldn't. I'd say that it was a potential conflict of interest and such donations should be declared.

 

I gather that Cameron is now promising that he won't benefit in the future from his Dad's tax avoidance schemes, but is declining to comment as to whether he benefited in the past. Whether or not he did, that's an unwise approach. If he didn't, he could just say so. If he did, he could say, "yes, I did benefit from my Dad's tax avoidance, but I didn't know where his money had been (even if he did) and I'll make an equivalent donation to HMRC or charity"?

 

As for equivalence with Miliband's Dad, there is none:

- Nobody is denying that Cameron Sr was involved in tax avoidance: that's perfectly legal, unlike tax evasion. We can form our own moral/political views on that, but the only political issue is whether his son benefited, thereby compromising his political stance on tax avoidance. Nobody has told lies about the Camerons - or even suggested that Cameron Sr was "the man who hated Britain", because he exploited legal loopholes to avoid contributing to the British exchequer. 

- Likewise, nobody denies that Miliband Sr, was a lifelong Marxist and supporter of the hard left. Again, people can make their own judgments on that, but holding/expressing such views is perfectly legal. But on that basis - and based on a diary note about British nationalism written when he was 17 - he was accused of being "the man who hated Britain". This was despite the fact that he chose to come here to escape Hitler and chose to stay here (paying his taxes as far as I'm aware) - and served in the Royal Navy during WW2, including during the Normandy landings. I can just imagine the Mail's response if someone accused WW2 veterans in general of "hating Britain" just because they supported political change - say voting UKIP or Brexit.

 

Here's the Mail's lies about Miliband Senior, and son Ed's response:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2435751/Red-Eds-pledge-bring-socialism-homage-Marxist-father-Ralph-Miliband-says-GEOFFREY-LEVY.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2439593/Why-father-loved-Britain-Ed-Miliband.html