Universal Basic Income

[DJ Barry Hammond]

The idea of providing a state supplied Universal Basic Income seems to be growing across political thinkers and according to reports below it could feature as a Labour policy.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-mcdonnell-labour-universal-basic-income-welfare-benefits-compass-report

What's people's thoughts on this?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

http://basicincome.org.uk/reasons-support-basic-income/

[Webbo]

It won't work. Why would anyone work if they didn't need to?

[Christoph]

It won't work. Why would anyone work if they didn't need to?

 

I agree with this. Although it might have more ground in the future. With more automation in retail and transport, a shit ton of people aren't going to have jobs. There are tons of driving jobs out there but I'd be surprised if there were tons of driving jobs in the future. 

 

This sounds nice but surely if people got this prices would just inflate to match the extra amount of money people have? 

[leicsmac]

It won't work. Why would anyone work if they didn't need to?

Because exceptionalism and skilled work of every type would be rewarded much more than by doing nothing?

[Webbo]

Because exceptionalism and skilled work of every type would be rewarded much more than by doing nothing?

Fair enough, if that's what you want but I'd retire tomorrow if I could afford it.

[cambridgefox]

Fair enough, if that's what you want but I'd retire tomorrow if I could afford it.

To be fair if I did your job I would want to retire.it must be like watching paint dry.

[Nick]

Yeah it's idealistic and impractical - especially in relation to immigration, however I like the arguments being put forward here. The notion that 50% of Swiss people are careers or volunteers and so this would replace state benefit and empower people to do more and start their own enterprises, charities etc is interesting as is the proposal to re-skill humans to be driven, creative entities that strive to empower rather than operate machines which has arguably deskilled people in the last 20 years. I like the idea of a generation of people with the freedom to create without boundaries rather than the wealthy few to have the freedom to deliver their own ideas.

Interesting stuff.

[ozleicester]

It IS the future, there wont be enough jobs and the only alternative is this.

 

Lets be honest, you can already choose not to work, but you are choosing a lifestyle that does not meet your needs, so you work. 

 

Nothing changes except we reduce poverty and probably crime (housebreakings, drug selling etc).

 

Everybody wins

[Webbo]

It IS the future, there wont be enough jobs and the only alternative is this.

 

Lets be honest, you can already choose not to work, but you are choosing a lifestyle that does not meet your needs, so you work. 

 

Nothing changes except we reduce poverty and probably crime (housebreakings, drug selling etc).

 

Everybody wins

Poverty is relative so, the way thse things are measured, there will always be poverty statistically. As for crime, you're assuming that people only steal because of need and not greed and selfishness.

[ozleicester]

Poverty is relative so, the way thse things are measured, there will always be poverty statistically. As for crime, you're assuming that people only steal because of need and not greed and selfishness.

 

well no, if people are paid a reasonable amount they will not be in poverty.

 

I did say "reduce", there will always be crime, but those stealing or dealing out of neccesity will no longer need to. 

 

Why does anyone else care if somone is paid a reasonable amount, it doesnt affect you... you will be able to get it, or you can choose to work and get more.

[Carl the Llama]

Poverty is relative so, the way thse things are measured, there will always be poverty statistically. As for crime, you're assuming that people only steal because of need and not greed and selfishness.

He's assuming some people only steal because of need, hence "reduce" instead of "eradicate".

 

Edit: Ie, what he just said  Poverty would only be an issue if food and housing prices rise to outstrip the new basic income, something for which checks and balances would surely be put in place when devising such a scheme.  Nobody's asking to make every citizen a millionnaire, just to make sure they have enough to meet their most basic needs.

[ozleicester]

and.. fyi, over the past 12 months there have been more than 1 TRILLION euros printed and distributed to the banks. So there is no need to worry where the money will come from...

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-22/ecb-money-printing-now-expected-to-top-1-trillion-euros/6033086

 

 

This morning there are leaks that the ECB is to splash out 50 billion euros a month, through to December 2016 according to Bloomberg.

In all, a massive bond buying bazooka of 1.1 trillion euros.

[Webbo]

well no, if people are paid a reasonable amount they will not be in poverty.

 

I did say "reduce", there will always be crime, but those stealing or dealing out of neccesity will no longer need to. 

 

Why does anyone else care if somone is paid a reasonable amount, it doesnt affect you... you will be able to get it, or you can choose to work and get more.

Poverty is defined as anyone with income less than 60% of the mean average. Unless the basic income is 60% of average income, people who chose not to work will automatically be in poverty.

[ozleicester]

Poverty is defined as anyone with income less than 60% of the mean average. Unless the basic income is 60% of average income, people who chose not to work will automatically be in poverty.

 

Interesting, ive not heard this specific definition before

 

Ive heard more of this type...

 

http://www.unesco.org/new/en/social-and-human-sciences/themes/international-migration/glossary/poverty/

 

edit - either way, so what, just make it 61% of median, problem solved

[Webbo]

Interesting, ive not heard this specific definition before

 

Ive heard more of this type...

 

http://www.unesco.org/new/en/social-and-human-sciences/themes/international-migration/glossary/poverty/

Actually, I'm wrong, it's median average . https://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/default/files/jrf/migrated/files/poverty-definitions.pdf

 

Joseph Rowntree Foundation research

The 60% median income measure on which these figures are based, though

an international standard, is arbitrary in the sense that there is no exact

calculation that this is a threshold of minimum income acceptable to society. 

[ozleicester]

 

Actually, I'm wrong, it's median average . https://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/default/files/jrf/migrated/files/poverty-definitions.pdf

 

Joseph Rowntree Foundation research

The 60% median income measure on which these figures are based, though

an international standard, is arbitrary in the sense that there is no exact

calculation that this is a threshold of minimum income acceptable to society. 

 

 

Okey dokey, so going by the 2012/13 figures, the median wage is about 21,000 pounds (ill use the dollar symbol from here on for ease) so that makes the 61% $12,500.

 

Easy, job done. if you are happy to live on $12,500 Nothing to see here move along.. if you want/need more, then off you go, get a job, which should prove easier with so many people just laying back kicking their shoes off and living off the $12,500.

 

Also, those people actually IN jobs, might WANT to be there and therefore do them better.

[Webbo]

Okey dokey, so going by the 2012/13 figures, the median wage is about 21,000 pounds (ill use the dollar symbol from here on for ease) so that makes the 61% $12,500.

 

Easy, job done. if you are happy to live on $12,500 Nothing to see here move along.. if you want/need more, then off you go, get a job, which should prove easier with so many people just laying back kicking their shoes off and living off the $12,500.

 

Also, those people actually IN jobs, might WANT to be there and therefore do them better.

So who's going to sweep the streets, clean the hospitals, wipe old ladies' bottoms  in a care home if you can sit at home and not need to work?

[ozleicester]

So who's going to sweep the streets, clean the hospitals, wipe old ladies' bottoms  in a care home if you can sit at home and not need to work?

 

Perhaps those people get paid a decent amount and therefore people (who actually WANT to be working) are happy to do those jobs

 

Edit - And to prevent the massive increases in the median, we reduce or limit the maximum amount payable.

[MC Prussian]

Funny this thread pops up on FT the same day Switzerland's eligible voters went to the ballots on the same issue...

 

... only to send it down the drain with a spectacular 77% of "No" votes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/switzerland-has-rejected-universal-basic-income-but-that-doesnt-mark-the-end-of-the-idea-for-europe-a7066311.html

 

The initiative committee, however, is celebrating the 23% "Yes" votes as a small victory and a step in the right direction. British journalist Jon Drever traveled to Switzerland today to film more parts for an upcoming documentary on the subject, calling the referendum a milestone - the first time a country voted on UBI.

The initiative proposed a 2'500 Swiss Franc (£1'800) basic income for every adult living in Switzerland, with kids or young adults getting a smaller portion of that amount.

 

Personally, I voted against it. But I do admire the committee for bringing the idea forward, because it would benefit people doing menial work or volunteer work that is often left unappreciated or unpaid. However, I feel we as people and the economy are not ready for it yet and I do regard regular work as something that can give a lot of meaning to people - provided you're in the right kind of job and enjoy doing what you're doing, that is. Somehow, I'd miss an incentive to work or do something purposeful with my life if I was guaranteed a UBI. But that's just my take on it.

 

It does raise a point about the worth of work, though.

 

Also, I'd still have to pay for rent, food, travel, insurance, car and would want to save some money, as well. The basic income proposed in Switzerland doesn't leave you with a lot of money left after all these hard costs are deducted.

[Webbo]

Perhaps those people get paid a decent amount and therefore people (who actually WANT to be working) are happy to do those jobs

 

Edit - And to prevent the massive increases in the median, we reduce or limit the maximum amount payable.

Make well off people poorer, reducing poverty without making anyone better off at all. Just shows what a lot of nonsense it is.

[Nick]

Make well off people poorer, reducing poverty without making anyone better off at all. Just shows what a lot of nonsense it is.

Respectfully, it's a tad more complicated than that I reckon.

[Webbo]

Respectfully, it's a tad more complicated than that I reckon.

Is it?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

@@MC Prussian

I was aware of the Swiss referendum on the matter and the resounding 'no' vote, but as has been pointed out a largely new radical idea needs time to garner support.

Out of interest - do you feel the level of income proposed was too generous, too little or just right? I'd have no idea what £2,500 Swiss Francs would get you?

[MC Prussian]

@@MC Prussian

I was aware of the Swiss referendum on the matter and the resounding 'no' vote, but as has been pointed out a largely new radical idea needs time to garner support.

Out of interest - do you feel the level of income proposed was too generous, too little or just right? I'd have no idea what £2,500 Swiss Francs would get you?

 

Well, it depends on where you're coming from and what job you have. I suppose 2'500 Swiss Francs for people in the lower income range or doing hard labour in menial jobs mean much more than to academics and people who've studied and are working in marketing or banking, for instance.

 

I also wonder what 2'500 Swiss Francs would do for people that are well-off (and Switzerland is home to a larger community of millionaires and billionaires still).

 

The Swiss median lies at 5'500 Swiss Francs, if I'm not mistaken.

 

"Hard costs", as in most countries, consist of rent (anywhere between 1'000 to 3'500 Swiss Francs a month or more, depending on your demands, the location and infrastructure), 300 to 500 Swiss Francs for transportation (monthly rail card or fuel), anywhere between 200 to 500 Swiss Francs for insurance, 500 to 1'000 Swiss Francs for food a month. Personal regular expenses (doctors visits, etc.) could amount to another 200 to 500 Swiss Francs a month, plus expenses for electricity and TV/phone bills (another 150 Swiss Francs a month or so). Then you want to deduct savings (private pension fund, investments, property, etc.), taxes (we're host to a progressive system - so you earn more, you pay more) and a bit of money on the side for vacations and you're pretty much done. Switzerland is an expensive country, but that's why the average income is relatively high, as well (or vice versa).

[SMX11]

If you remove all other benefits and the bureaucracy that comes with administering it than I can it being potentially better than now. However, how do you decide the amount to be paid?