President Trump & the USA

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45973436

 

Good grief, that's like Harold Shipman saying that the medical profession should go in for less killing people.

[The Doctor]

21 hours ago, MattP said:

Probably shouldn't be in here but as it's where the most of the Trans talk has come I'll put it here. Good read from Trevor Phillips - the former head of the Commission for Racial Equality and Human Rights- on why the Transextremists are putting equality at risk for us.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-extremists-are-putting-equality-at-risk-fjv8skwz0

 

Eh, that article is heavily scaremongering and positing a future there's not justified reason to suspect will come about. If we want to actually discuss self ID, plenty of countries like Uruguay (as the legends foretold) and Ireland have adopted it without any issue. Particularly given access to single sex spaces is already done on a self-ID basis here anyway.

[Guest MattP]

7 hours ago, leicsmac said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45973436

 

Good grief, that's like Harold Shipman saying that the medical profession should go in for less killing people.

Aside from CNN and Fox I think the media have done a fairly decent job on reporting over the last couple of years in America, I do think they hugely overstepped the mark in the Kavanaugh case though with the amount of opinion pieces that seemed obsessed by the colour of skin, I think that was a turning point for many and did show some hidden agendas that we shouldn't see. I do feel for them trying to cover this Presidency and appear impartial, he is extremely hard to report on and the message there is good but the wrong person has delivered it. American politics is now a divisive wreck and has been for some time, dragged down by the alt-right, hard- left, gun control debate, identity politics enforcement and then leaving a choice at the ballot box for millions on the moderate wings of either to pick a side.

Similar to the Brexit debate/Corbyn election it was always going to end like this when the choices are so far apart.

There is some pretty bad stuff from both sides though, Clinton last week was talking about "civility" returning when the Democrats get in, I mean what planet is she living on?
 

6 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Eh, that article is heavily scaremongering and positing a future there's not justified reason to suspect will come about. If we want to actually discuss self ID, plenty of countries like Uruguay (as the legends foretold) and Ireland have adopted it without any issue. Particularly given access to single sex spaces is already done on a self-ID basis here anyway.

Literally just a few months ago on here I was told I was scaremongering when I opposed men being put into womens prisons, I talked about the dangers it can cause and already we have seen cases including a quite terrible one just last week which resulted in two people being assaulted by someone who shouldn't have been there - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-45825838

"A predator to women" - put into a womens prison because he said he was a woman - only in 2018.

I was also told I was lying when I said they were more likely to be sex offenders - this has now come out as fact. - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

 

Quote

 

Fair Play for Women examined individual prison inspection reports and concluded that 41% of transgender women in prison are convicted sex offenders.

If more than 40% of trans prisoners were sex offenders, that would be disproportionately high.

According to the most recent data, 19% of all prisoners are serving time for a sexual offence.

 

Uruguay literally passed these extra measures yesterday and they also ban Transexuals from the military. I can't find any figures for numbers though. Ireland had adoped 230 certificates as of last year https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/230-gender-recognition-certificates-issued-since-2015-450656.html
 

I think it's a bit premature to be holding up these examples as any sort of success given the small numbers we are talking about.

[The Doctor]

56 minutes ago, MattP said:

Aside from CNN and Fox I think the media have done a fairly decent job on reporting over the last couple of years in America, I do think they hugely overstepped the mark in the Kavanaugh case though with the amount of opinion pieces that seemed obsessed by the colour of skin, I think that was a turning point for many and did show some hidden agendas that we shouldn't see. I do feel for them trying to cover this Presidency and appear impartial, he is extremely hard to report on and the message there is good but the wrong person has delivered it. American politics is now a divisive wreck and has been for some time, dragged down by the alt-right, hard- left, gun control debate, identity politics enforcement and then leaving a choice at the ballot box for millions on the moderate wings of either to pick a side.

Similar to the Brexit debate/Corbyn election it was always going to end like this when the choices are so far apart.

There is some pretty bad stuff from both sides though, Clinton last week was talking about "civility" returning when the Democrats get in, I mean what planet is she living on?
 

Literally just a few months ago on here I was told I was scaremongering when I opposed men being put into womens prisons, I talked about the dangers it can cause and already we have seen cases including a quite terrible one just last week which resulted in two people being assaulted by someone who shouldn't have been there - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-45825838

"A predator to women" - put into a womens prison because he said he was a woman - only in 2018.

I was also told I was lying when I said they were more likely to be sex offenders - this has now come out as fact. - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

 

Uruguay literally passed these extra measures yesterday and they also ban Transexuals from the military. I can't find any figures for numbers though. Ireland had adoped 230 certificates as of last year https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/230-gender-recognition-certificates-issued-since-2015-450656.html
 

I think it's a bit premature to be holding up these examples as any sort of success given the small numbers we are talking about.

Yeah FPFW are a hate group with barely concealed links to the evangelical right in America, everything they say is garbage, particularly the bit you're citing given the MoJ don't record that data in their only report on transgender people in prison. In reality trans people are significantly more likely to be harassed or assaulted in single sex spaces than they were to be harassers: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lgbt-survey/u-s-transgender-people-harassed-in-public-restrooms-landmark-survey-idUSKBN13X0BK - something FPFW contribute to with their stunts designed to stir up transphobia.

 

As for Ireland - I'm assuming you can see how that undermines your own argument? Limited number issued because people aren't abusing the self-ID laws as suggested would happen

Edited 25 October 2018 by The Doctor

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, The Doctor said:

Yeah FPFW are a hate group with barely concealed links to the evangelical right in America, everything they say is garbage, particularly the bit you're citing given the MoJ don't record that data in their only report on transgender people in prison. In reality trans people are significantly more likely to be harassed or assaulted in single sex spaces than they were to be harassers: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lgbt-survey/u-s-transgender-people-harassed-in-public-restrooms-landmark-survey-idUSKBN13X0BK - something FPFW contribute to with their stunts designed to stir up transphobia.

 

As for Ireland - I'm assuming you can see how that undermines your own argument? Limited number issued because people aren't abusing the self-ID laws as suggested would happen

Any evidence for that? They often get invited onto the BBC for these sort of debates, which would be a bit strange for a "hate group".

[leicsmac]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

Aside from CNN and Fox I think the media have done a fairly decent job on reporting over the last couple of years in America, I do think they hugely overstepped the mark in the Kavanaugh case though with the amount of opinion pieces that seemed obsessed by the colour of skin, I think that was a turning point for many and did show some hidden agendas that we shouldn't see. I do feel for them trying to cover this Presidency and appear impartial, he is extremely hard to report on and the message there is good but the wrong person has delivered it. American politics is now a divisive wreck and has been for some time, dragged down by the alt-right, hard- left, gun control debate, identity politics enforcement and then leaving a choice at the ballot box for millions on the moderate wings of either to pick a side.

Similar to the Brexit debate/Corbyn election it was always going to end like this when the choices are so far apart.

There is some pretty bad stuff from both sides though, Clinton last week was talking about "civility" returning when the Democrats get in, I mean what planet is she living on?

1

Some good points here - yeah, the message is good and he's certainly the wrong person to deliver it, it just makes him look like a blatant hypocrite. The polarisation is a mess, though.

 

Two things I might raise though: I honestly don't think there's any really organised "hard-left" group in the US - at least, not one that's close to any type of power outside a university campus or two. The Overton Window is shifted so far to the right over there the Dems, whom most Americans would think of as cuddly liberals, are about on a par with the moderate UK Tories. The polarisation over there is between centrists and social-conservatives-verging-on-neofascists by UK standards, IMO. And, when Dem supporters are sending bombs to their leading political opponents as opposed to, say, merely shouting them down in restaurants, then perhaps the idea that there's pretty bad stuff on both sides might hold more water.

 

 

[Guest MattP]

16 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Some good points here - yeah, the message is good and he's certainly the wrong person to deliver it, it just makes him look like a blatant hypocrite. The polarisation is a mess, though.

 

Two things I might raise though: I honestly don't think there's any really organised "hard-left" group in the US - at least, not one that's close to any type of power outside a university campus or two. The Overton Window is shifted so far to the right over there the Dems, whom most Americans would think of as cuddly liberals, are about on a par with the moderate UK Tories. The polarisation over there is between centrists and social-conservatives-verging-on-neofascists by UK standards, IMO. And, when Dem supporters are sending bombs to their leading political opponents as opposed to, say, merely shouting them down in restaurants, then perhaps the idea that there's pretty bad stuff on both sides might hold more water.

Well all actions like these are deplorable, violence or intimidation is never acceptable because of the political persuasion of somebody else in a civilised society, ANTIFA types are said to have played a big part in the violence towards Trump supporters as well.

 

No side is clean here, the extremes on both of them are responsible.

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Well all actions like these are deplorable, violence or intimidation is never acceptable because of the political persuasion of somebody else in a civilised society, ANTIFA types are said to have played a big part in the violence towards Trump supporters as well.

 

No side is clean here, the extremes on both of them are responsible.

I think there's something of a difference between intimidation of leading figures and actual killing/actions with intent to kill as displayed here and in the past, so I don't think it's altogether equivalent (even though yes, the extremes on both sides are pushing the envelope) but I guess we'll just have to disagree on that one.

[leicsmac]

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/29/why-are-americans-still-uncomfortable-with-atheism

 

Oh a different note, a most interesting look at why the threads of organised religion still run very deep in the US.

[The Doctor]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Any evidence for that? They often get invited onto the BBC for these sort of debates, which would be a bit strange for a "hate group".

As a general rule, legitimate groups don't tend to get enjoyment out of imagining people they don't like getting cancer (or cancer like problems):

 

[Mr Mister]

The USA is nothing but a laughing stock these days.

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45968606

 

Fascinating report from the Beeb about rural Wyoming and attitudes there, 20 years after a high-profile murder.

[Guest MattP]

Still the best Tweet/FB post ever, never has the entitlement of someone been so obvious in so few words

 

 

Edited 26 October 2018 by MattP

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Still the best Tweet/FB post ever, never has the entitlement of someone been so obvious in so few words

 

 

Is that legit?

 

If it is, good grief, talk about tempting fate.

 

Still would rather have her at the helm than Trump though...that being said, I'd likely rather have a lot of different people than either.

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Is that legit?

 

If it is, good grief, talk about tempting fate.

 

Still would rather have her at the helm than Trump though...that being said, I'd likely rather have a lot of different people than either.

100% I remember it at the time and thinking what an arsehole. - https://globalnews.ca/news/3026856/hillary-clinton-wished-herself-a-happy-birthday-on-twitter-and-some-people-find-that-strange/

 

Incredibly it's still there - Not even been deleted.

 

I'm glad she's not there - I'm convinced my country would have been dragged into an ongoing civil war in Syria had she been now and I'd be worried about family and friends in it.

[Carl the Llama]

Posting birthday messages to yourself is already bad enough. Good grief

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

100% I remember it at the time and thinking what an arsehole. - https://globalnews.ca/news/3026856/hillary-clinton-wished-herself-a-happy-birthday-on-twitter-and-some-people-find-that-strange/

 

Incredibly it's still there - Not even been deleted.

 

I'm glad she's not there - I'm convinced my country would have been dragged into an ongoing civil war in Syria had she been now and I'd be worried about family and friends in it.

 

That's fair enough. I'm personally convinced that, ignoring all other factors, the environmental policy of this administration could well end up with a price tag of worry, death and misery that would make Syria look like a picnic.

[Guest MattP]

Just now, leicsmac said:

That's fair enough. I'm personally convinced that, ignoring all other factors, the environmental policy of this administration could well end up with a price tag of worry, death and misery that would make Syria look like a picnic.

Really, they can do that in 4 years?

 

If that's the case the Chinese are creating another holocaust x 100.

Edited 26 October 2018 by MattP

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, MattP said:

Really, they can do that in 4 years?

 

If that's the case the Chinese are creating another holocaust x 100.

Not the whole of it, but certainly a part of it - along with the Chinese and other actors, too. The recent IPCC report is pretty clear and while the policy itself might not directly cause harm, the ignorance it breeds among the public could well have far-reaching consequences in the future.

 

Honestly, I don't get the whole idea of the buck getting passed and inaction simply because "hey, they might be worse at it than us". Sorry, but the Americans don't get to ignore the warnings and be scot-free from responsibility for the consequences simply because the Chinese might not be pulling their weight either. 

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Honestly, I don't get the whole idea of the buck getting passed and inaction simply because "hey, they might be worse at it than us". Sorry, but the Americans don't get to ignore the warnings and be scot-free from responsibility for the consequences simply because the Chinese might not be pulling their weight either. 

It's not passing the buck, it's making sure you don't get the piss taken out of you as a nation. If the Chinese are going to destroy the planet I may as well gorge on beef and load up on flights.

 

I know the response to this is we'll be all dead anyway, but I'm still not going to make life uncomfortable for my own citizens for no reason at all if that's the end game.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

It's not passing the buck, it's making sure you don't get the piss taken out of you as a nation. If the Chinese are going to destroy the planet I may as well gorge on beef and load up on flights.

 

I know the response to this is we'll be all dead anyway, but I'm still not going to make life uncomfortable for my own citizens for no reason at all if that's the end game.

.....we'll all be dead anyway.

 

 

But in all seriousness, I see where you're coming from but I don't assume that if the Chinese don't toe the line that we're all screwed. At the very least, the US taking it seriously might give enough time for other nations to realise that the shit is going to hit the fan and get on board. All I can be certain about is that no one does anything then everyone is screwed and all the big nations share responsibility for that.

[Guest MattP]

To be honest I struggle to see how this can all be resolved without serious population reduction anyway.

 

As a species we are out on control and we've advanced to a point where our desires are almost impossible to achieve without serious damage.

 

In another 50 years can you imagine how many flights there are going to be when it's affordable travel for billions of us?

[leicsmac]

15 minutes ago, MattP said:

To be honest I struggle to see how this can all be resolved without serious population reduction anyway.

 

As a species we are out on control and we've advanced to a point where our desires are almost impossible to achieve without serious damage.

 

In another 50 years can you imagine how many flights there are going to be when it's affordable travel for billions of us?

As much as I may seem to be a misanthrope on here I'm not ready to go down the Thanos route and start snapping my fingers just yet. I'd agree that the consumption going on right now is bad and it's only going to get worse as more and more people want to live the kind of lives they believe desirable, however I also think that human ingenuity can make it so that we can have our cake and eat it on that score environmentally...as long as the will is there.

 

Right now, that will is not there, and that is personified in Trump.

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45996655

 

And we have our MAGAhat wearing domestic terrorist. Unless he's a patsy, of course.

[Smudge]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45996655

 

And we have our MAGAhat wearing domestic terrorist. Unless he's a patsy, of course.

Why don't we wait and see?

Edited 27 October 2018 by Smudge