President Trump & the USA

[Guest MattP]

18 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

Trump would have no issues with being a dictator on the level on Hitler, Stalin, Kim, etc. the difference is that Trump is nowhere near as clever as any of those men.

 

if he saw a window of opportunity i'm sure he'd take it and he's doing his best to fill positions around him with weak men who won't stop him. 

 

he has all the classic traits of a dictator but unfortunately the USA isn't a country in total desperation across the board where a proper dictator can flourish - YET. 

The USA, like most Western nations, will always have enough checks and balances in place to make sure no single individual can become an absolute autocrat. There would have to be some serious changes of the populace's views on the freedoms we enjoy now to overturn any of this.

 

The amendments of America give them rights to freedom of speech we can now only dream of in Europe.

 

I'm far more worried about Xi, Erdogan, Bin Salman and Putin than I am about Trump, who seems to lack any desire for expansion or control over his people that almost all other tyrants have.

Edited 19 October 2018 by MattP

[MC Prussian]

Claiming Trump is "like Hitler" is one of the sickest joke the Dems and the Left in the US have ever let loose.

 

Lose the argument, let Adolf step up. Kills all discussions instantaneously.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, MC Prussian said:

Claiming Trump is "like Hitler" is one of the sickest joke the Dems and the Left in the US have ever let loose.

 

Lose the argument, let Adolf step up. Kills all discussions instantaneously.

Unfortunately that's the standard of political debate in 2018 - Godwins Law normalised and any rationality out of the window.

 

People are so consumed by hate on all sides it's clouding any logical thought.

[Carl the Llama]

Nobody's said he's like Hitler though...  I've only seen people defend him by saying "well he's not as bad as Hitler".  Back off your Godwin's high horses. Smh. 

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, MC Prussian said:

Claiming Trump is "like Hitler" is one of the sickest joke the Dems and the Left in the US have ever let loose.

 

Lose the argument, let Adolf step up. Kills all discussions instantaneously.

 

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Unfortunately that's the standard of political debate in 2018 - Godwins Law normalised and any rationality out of the window.

 

People are so consumed by hate on all sides it's clouding any logical thought.

...did anyone say that Trump has both the attitude and (more importantly) the capability to be like Hitler?

 

I'm pretty sure most remarks on here on that score have been qualified with him lacking one or the other.

[lifted*fox]

He's not got the ability and there isn't the right circumstance in America for Trump to BE a Hitler but he's got a hell of a lot in common with him. 

 

You only have to watch his rallies and listen to his rhetoric to see he's not a mile off in terms of manipulation, 'build the wall', 'america first', etc.

 

Hitler had the right circumstance for his vision to become viable, post-WW1, Treaty of Versailles. Trump has the vision but not the circumstance for it to become popular enough. 

 

There is absolutely no doubt that he would push it to it's very limit if he could (and he is, tbh) but he also has enough opposition to stop it getting out of hand. 

 

Trump is a mentally-ill, racist, misogynistic, unhinged man-baby with nothing to lose now - he knows he's in for a world of shit eventually - that makes him a dangerous man.

 

Anyone who stands up for Trump and his behaviour in any way / shape / form as POTUS needs to have a word. 

 

Nobody should act the way he does in that role - he's absolutely rotten to the core. 

Edited 19 October 2018 by lifted*fox

[MC Prussian]

4 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

Nobody's said he's like Hitler though...  I've only seen people defend him by saying "well he's not as bad as Hitler".  Back off your Godwin's high horses. Smh. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/07/michael-moore-compares-trump-to-hitler-in-new-documentary---.html

https://fpif.org/its-time-to-take-the-nazi-trump-comparisons-seriously/

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dallas-county/2018/10/10/john-wiley-price-compares-trump-hitler-mail-ad-urging-dallas-voters-support-democrats

https://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/20180714/comparing-trump-to-hitler-is-disgrace

https://www.salon.com/2018/08/06/historian-on-comparing-donald-trump-to-adolf-hitler-my-resistance-is-being-overcome/

 

Quote

Macklemore leads chants of “F*** Donald Trump” at a concert in Arizona and performs his YG collaboration, “F*** Donald Trump Part 2”, which features the lyric: “How did he make it this far? How the f*** did it begin? / A Trump rally sounds like Hitler and Berlin.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/trump-music-us-president-kanye-west-snoop-dogg-inauguration-taylor-swift-a8592536.html

 

Need more?

You can always argue to what extent these individuals go with the Nazi and Hitler comparison, but I find the rhetoric inflammatory and dangerous.

[Carl the Llama]

12 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/07/michael-moore-compares-trump-to-hitler-in-new-documentary---.html

https://fpif.org/its-time-to-take-the-nazi-trump-comparisons-seriously/

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dallas-county/2018/10/10/john-wiley-price-compares-trump-hitler-mail-ad-urging-dallas-voters-support-democrats

https://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/20180714/comparing-trump-to-hitler-is-disgrace

https://www.salon.com/2018/08/06/historian-on-comparing-donald-trump-to-adolf-hitler-my-resistance-is-being-overcome/

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/trump-music-us-president-kanye-west-snoop-dogg-inauguration-taylor-swift-a8592536.html

 

Need more?

You can always argue to what extent these individuals go with the Nazi and Hitler comparison, but I find the rhetoric inflammatory and dangerous.

Ha sorry I skimmed your original comment so I thought we were talking about people on the forum, glossed over the "Dems and the Left in the US" bit.  Too busy being stunned at the irony of Matt criticising people for demonstrating Godwin's law after doing it himself at the bottom of the previous page I guess.  

[MC Prussian]

14 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Ha sorry I skimmed your original comment so I thought we were talking about people on the forum, glossed over the "Dems and the Left in the US" bit.  Too busy being stunned at the irony of Matt criticising people for demonstrating Godwin's law after doing it himself at the bottom of the previous page I guess.  

You're in the wrong thread then, son.

[Jattdogg]

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2018/10/saudi-arabia-confirms-khashoggi-killed-istanbul-consulate-181019221512552.html

 

 

Some important points....

 

 

"The official SPA press agency said on Saturday that preliminary results of investigations showed that the dissident writer died after a fight broke out inside the building.

"An argument erupted between him [Khashoggi] and others whom he met in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul leading to a fistfight which led to his death," SPA reported."

....

 

"

Al Jazeera's Sinem Koseoglu, reporting from Turkey's capital, Ankara, said Turkish officials are accusing Saudi officials of attempting to thwart a joint Saudi-Turkish investigation, noting Mohammed bin Salman has been put in charge of leading the Saudi probe into Khashoggi's disappearance."

 

....

"It said the king ordered the formation of a ministerial committee, headed by the crown prince, to oversee the restructure. It will include the interior minister, the foreign minister, the head of the intelligence agency and the chief of homeland security."

 

 

 

 

Ya im sure khashoggi went there and thought fighting was the best thing. Since when does a fight lead to torture and chopping ones body up?

 

And the guy who is suspected of ordering the kill is leading the investigation. FFS what a sham. Joke. I actually wish the Saudis royals are wiped out. Pathetic people. 

 

I think trumps best option for a response is to shut his mouth and let congress handle this. He wont punish the saudis and has insinuated that. Sure he talks in circles but we all know he wont do squat (id be surprised if he did).

 

I really want to see the rest of the world condemn the kingdom and shun them. Im waiting on trudeau to man up and tell the saudi royals to FOAD.

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45919876

 

Interesting.

[the fox]

People acting like trump is an unparalleled monster

 

He's not even in the same ballpark as the likes of Bush and Obama. 

 

The problem here is that Trump brought disharmony to the USA and friends instead of the oil-rich 3rd world countries. And the lurking of the Kings of the East only made the scenery that much colorful. 

 

As a person who lives in a country smack-dab in the middle of an important geopolitical position, I know that no matter who's getting the control over the world, we're not getting a happy ending. I can see what's happening around me, I'm not blind. The way Egypt was handled, the way Tunisia was handled, the way Mali was handled, the way Morocco acts. America and friends already checkmate'd us longtime ago. Lol

 

But I will be lying If i said I'm not enjoying how the dominos are falling. Like the great GGG once said, "big drama show! " 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 20 October 2018 by the fox

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, the fox said:

People acting like trump is an unparalleled monster

 

He's not even in the same ballpark as the likes of Bush and Obama. 

 

The problem here is that Trump brought disharmony to the USA and friends instead of the oil-rich 3rd world countries. And the lurking of the Kings of the East only made the scenery that much colorful. 

 

As a person who lives in a country smack-dab in the middle of an important geopolitical Country, I know that no matter who's getting the control over the world, we're not getting a happy ending. I can see what's happening around me, I'm not blind. The way Egypt was handled, the way Tunisia was handled, the way Mali was handled, the way Morocco acts. America and friends already checkmate'd us longtime ago. Lol

 

But I will be lying If said I'm not enjoying how the dominos are falling. Like the great GGG once said, "big drama show! " 

I'm delighted people like you are on this this forum to expose the ridiculous opinions we hear.

 

Declaring Trump as the worst President ever is the most white, liberal middle class piece of virtue signalling you can do. It's pathetic to be quite honest when you compare it to the damage caused by the people who came before him, hundreds of thousands of lives lost and millions affected but lets instead get upset by someone who says some nasty things.

 

Embarrassing, really embarrassing. 

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

I'm delighted people like you are on this this forum to expose the ridiculous opinions we hear.

 

Declaring Trump as the worst President ever is the most white, liberal middle class piece of virtue signalling you can do. It's pathetic to be quite honest when you compare it to the damage caused by the people who came before him, hundreds of thousands of lives lost and millions affected but lets instead get upset by someone who says some nasty things.

 

Embarrassing, really embarrassing. 

Exposing opinions...with other opinions that happen to be agreeable? Fair enough. TBH we should all know we're just in a big talking shop on this thread anyway - I know I take it more seriously than perhaps I should but at the end of the day it's all subjective. Like I said to Prussian, if you want to express facts and feel good that other people have too, stick to physics.

 

That being said, just because realpolitik was bullshit before it doesn't mean that it has to be tolerated now (as guess what, it's still bullshit) and if/when this current administrations environmental policy ends up causing more damage and affecting more people than the ones that came before him then it might be worth digging this post up again. (Purely opinion, of course.)

[the fox]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

I'm delighted people like you are on this this forum to expose the ridiculous opinions we hear.

 

Declaring Trump as the worst President ever is the most white, liberal middle class piece of virtue signalling you can do. It's pathetic to be quite honest when you compare it to the damage caused by the people who came before him, hundreds of thousands of lives lost and millions affected but lets instead get upset by someone who says some nasty things.

 

Embarrassing, really embarrassing. 

People hate trump not because he did and said some nasty things, they hate him because he's unapologetic about it. He's so shameless it's hilarious

The way he dismantled hillary was a work of art. 

 

I got no horse in the race but as it stands, he's far off the worst in the history of the USA. Not even close. 

 

"rednecks" voted for him because of his skin color and the outlandish things he said. Just like millions voted for Obama for his skin color. 

 

Ay, don't start a circus then get mad when clowns show-up. 

 

People who compare him to characters who killed millions are hypocrites. Have some shame. 

 

It boils down to this. The USA wants to drive the narrative like they always do. They want to make it "good vs evil" when the next war they start begins. But sadly for them, Trump isn't so cooprative in portraying the Image of a good guy. 

Edited 20 October 2018 by the fox

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Exposing opinions...with other opinions that happen to be agreeable? Fair enough. TBH we should all know we're just in a big talking shop on this thread anyway - I know I take it more seriously than perhaps I should but at the end of the day it's all subjective. Like I said to Prussian, if you want to express facts and feel good that other people have too, stick to physics.

 

That being said, just because realpolitik was bullshit before it doesn't mean that it has to be tolerated now (as guess what, it's still bullshit) and if/when this current administrations environmental policy ends up causing more damage and affecting more people than the ones that came before him then it might be worth digging this post up again. (Purely opinion, of course.)

Sorry mate but Realpolitik isn't bullshit - it's been here for longer than we know and it will continue to be. It will always be a huge part of this and it's probably only going to increase during our lifetime. We've already seen the consequences of us turning our back on parts of the World. 

 

As for the climate - the US has a huge role to play, but the Chinese are the ones in the end who will decide where this goes.

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, MattP said:

Sorry mate but Realpolitik isn't bullshit - it's been here for longer than we know and it will continue to be. It will always be a huge part of this and it's probably only going to increase during our lifetime. We've already seen the consequences of us turning our back on parts of the World. 

 

As for the climate - the US has a huge role to play, but the Chinese are the ones in the end who will decide where this goes.

I'll never get my head around the idea of animalistic Might Makes Right being a legitimate national philosophy - not when it just leads to an endless cycle of death and other unpleasant outcomes because we're apparently not much more advanced than the animals around us.

 

But so it goes.

 

WRT climate - if they want the Chinese to come along, the US should be making an example to follow, not abandoning the future for the sake of a few extra dollars now. The consequences are global, the responsibility is thus equally so (and like anyone is going to care about responsibility if the shit ever hits the fan).

[Guest MattP]

11 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I'll never get my head around the idea of animalistic Might Makes Right being a legitimate national philosophy - not when it just leads to an endless cycle of death and other unpleasant outcomes because we're apparently not much more advanced than the animals around us.

 

But so it goes.

 

WRT climate - if they want the Chinese to come along, the US should be making an example to follow, not abandoning the future for the sake of a few extra dollars now. The consequences are global, the responsibility is thus equally so (and like anyone is going to care about responsibility if the shit ever hits the fan).

Do you really think the Chinese will just follow if someone else sets an example?

 

I can't believe someone as bright as you can be that naive. I really can't.

[leicsmac]

16 minutes ago, MattP said:

Do you really think the Chinese will just follow if someone else sets an example?

 

I can't believe someone as bright as you can be that naive. I really can't.

They may well not, perhaps that daft nationalism will win and they won't follow and it will all have been in vain. 

 

All I know is that unless someone steps up to set an example of either controlling emissions/pollutants or being able to mitigate the consequences (it could be anyone with global influence, I don't really care), change that at the least will be difficult and at the most will be catastrophic will be inevitable.

[Guest MattP]

19 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

They may well not, perhaps that daft nationalism will win and they won't follow and it will all have been in vain. 

 

All I know is that unless someone steps up to set an example of either controlling emissions/pollutants or being able to mitigate the consequences (it could be anyone with global influence, I don't really care), change that at the least will be difficult and at the most will be catastrophic will be inevitable.

Daft nationalism? 

 

The Chinese aren't building new power stations because of nationalism, they are doing it because of rapid population growth and the economic advancements it brings, it's nothing to do with nationalism at all.

 

They can't continue to develop at the rate they need to unless they take this course - how you stop that I have no idea but it won't be America leading the way that leads them to it.

[leicsmac]

12 hours ago, MattP said:

Daft nationalism? 

 

The Chinese aren't building new power stations because of nationalism, they are doing it because of rapid population growth and the economic advancements it brings, it's nothing to do with nationalism at all.

 

They can't continue to develop at the rate they need to unless they take this course - how you stop that I have no idea but it won't be America leading the way that leads them to it.

Exactly, they're building them for economic benefits which give them greater global standing - that's practically a tenet of nationalism, to get your own country ahead of the other ones, whether it's through money or guns (or both).

 

Again though, if examples aren't set and things do end up going horribly wrong as a result the US doesn't get to wash its hands of responsibility for it - global problem, global responsibility, especially from all the big players, the US included.

 

Oh, and as an addendum, this is one reason exactly why nationalism is daft - countries (whether it's the US, China or whoever) not wanting to do anything about a potential existential threat and opening the door to let it happen simply because it might give the other guy a leg up on them if they do. That, right there, is stupid - humanity lacking any kind of sense of self-preservation because they can't look beyond the end of their own lives and that of those around them.

Edited 21 October 2018 by leicsmac

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45930206

 

Smart tactical move to put some distance between yourself and the Russians just before the midterms, Mr Trump. Well played.

[lifted*fox]

 

[leicsmac]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/us/politics/transgender-trump-administration-sex-definition.html

 

Ah, yes. Civil rights for all, eh? Looking forward to the first case where a trans person is denied essential health care based on their identity based on a ruling like this (except that could never happen, right?)

 

Also, from the comments: "No matter what your beliefs are regarding transgender [folks], remember that something that you consider integral to your nature as a person might be the next definition Trump decides he doesn't like".

[The Doctor]

Quote

 

For the last year, the Department of Health and Human Services has privately argued that the term “sex” was never meant to include gender identity or even homosexuality, and that the lack of clarity allowed the Obama administration to wrongfully extend civil rights protections to people who should not have them
 

 

 

 

Quote

 

wrongfully extend civil rights protections to people who should not have them
 

 

 

have I misunderstood what civil rights are? Pretty sure there's no such thing as wrongfully having civil rights - has America seriously got an administration that thinks basic human rights aren't a universally applicable concept?

 

 

Also, genetic testing to determine who gets civil rights? I wonder where an administration that has the complete support of white supremacists might go with that...

Edited 22 October 2018 by The Doctor