President Trump & the USA

[Guest SO1]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Political unrest is very polite to Bush, Blair, Obama, Sarkozy and Cameron (and a few others). 

 

Political stupidity and recklessness is more accurate. 

Killing people and destroying countries for sport and then stealing their resources. And don't forget to look behind the curtain. Those names come and go but their deeds all remain the same. Fighting for the Evil Rich.

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Just wait and see the extent of the crisis when a big population nation runs short of food and/or water because of the way the Earth is changing.

 

It'll make the political stupidity (and you may well be right to call it that) and the present "crisis" seem like a pleasant memory.

Big population nations are already running short of food - North Korea and Venezuela spring to mind.

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Big population nations are already running short of food - North Korea and Venezuela spring to mind.

 

NK has a population less than half of that of SK; Venezuela a little under half that of the UK.

 

I know you like these sly little digs but you could make at least some effort to get your facts straight.

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

Big population nations are already running short of food - North Korea and Venezuela spring to mind.

I mean big population nations, Matt. Somewhere like Pakistan, Bangladesh, or big areas of India and/or China - they're all in prime areas to be the first to feel the pinch.

 

We haven't even scratched the surface of just how hostile this planet can be to us if it chooses to be (though of course I'm no exponent of Gaia theory and there isn't a consciousness there, but you get the idea). Of course, what nature starts humans might well finish, once there's enough stressors out there and enough desperate people the shooting will start pretty promptly, I would say.

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

NK has a population less than half of that of SK; Venezuela a little under half that of the UK.

 

I know you like these sly little digs but you could make at least some effort to get your facts straight.

195 countries in the World - so both of those around or in the top 25% on basis of population.

 

No one can predict what sort of conflict will develop from it or how human behaviour will react, famine across Africa, China and India didn't result in worse wars than we saw in Europe - let alone make it feel like a "pleasant memory".

 

We all get the eco-warriors are going to use ridiculous hyperbole and armageddon in this argument but there is no guarantee whatsoever it's correct.

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, MattP said:

195 countries in the World - so both of those around or in the top 25% on basis of population.

 

No one can predict what sort of conflict will develop from it or how human behaviour will react, famine across Africa, China and India didn't result in worse wars than we saw in Europe - let alone make it feel like a "pleasant memory".

 

We all get the eco-warriors are going to use ridiculous hyperbole and armageddon in this argument but there is no guarantee whatsoever it's correct.

As said above, those famines, though horrific, are small beer compared to the potential consequences of a small average temperature change.

 

And quite frankly, the idea that the Earth is going to change drastically in a way that may well render vast swathes of it much more inhospitable is hardly hyperbole and is almost certainly guaranteed (a cursory look at ice core data shows you how such changes happen even relatively recently) - those that think otherwise and try to play it down are simply betting on they themselves not feeling the pinch until after they're dead and it's not their problem any more. Of course, those changes happened without humanitys input at all, but we're certainly doing our bit to mix things up this time round.

 

Of course, it might be suggested that rather than the descent into awful trouble humanity actually behaves gracefully and manages to find a way to deal with such changes while maintaining a healthy civilisation, but given how difficult it is right now to even get some countries to do their bit to stave off those consequences and how much a mess international cooperation of any kind is, I'd say that certainly isn't guaranteed.

[Guest SO1]

On 09/05/2019 at 10:10, MattP said:

Big population nations are already running short of food - North Korea and Venezuela spring to mind.

Of course sanctions by my country have nothing to do with that.

[Grebfromgrebland]

On 09/05/2019 at 15:25, leicsmac said:

I mean big population nations, Matt. Somewhere like Pakistan, Bangladesh, or big areas of India and/or China - they're all in prime areas to be the first to feel the pinch.

 

We haven't even scratched the surface of just how hostile this planet can be to us if it chooses to be (though of course I'm no exponent of Gaia theory and there isn't a consciousness there, but you get the idea). Of course, what nature starts humans might well finish, once there's enough stressors out there and enough desperate people the shooting will start pretty promptly, I would say.

What makes you think that? 

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

What makes you think that? 

Because there's no documented evidence at this time.

 

Of course there's a lot of theoretical physics that is exactly that - theoretical - but at least with have reasonable probable cause for a lot of that based on what we see elsewhere. For me Earth consciousness theory belongs with pretty much any other theology in terms of what it actually means for humans - not much because we couldn't begin to comprehend what such a being would want (if indeed it would want anything at all) and if it does exist then it certainly doesn't care about the whims and wishes of humans anyway and as such belief in it from the POV of paying homage or anything beyond basic acknowledgement is moot (I extend that same argument to pretty much all organised religion, come to that).

[Buce]

35 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Because there's no documented evidence at this time.

 

Of course there's a lot of theoretical physics that is exactly that - theoretical - but at least with have reasonable probable cause for a lot of that based on what we see elsewhere. For me Earth consciousness theory belongs with pretty much any other theology in terms of what it actually means for humans - not much because we couldn't begin to comprehend what such a being would want (if indeed it would want anything at all) and if it does exist then it certainly doesn't care about the whims and wishes of humans anyway and as such belief in it from the POV of paying homage or anything beyond basic acknowledgement is moot (I extend that same argument to pretty much all organised religion, come to that).

 

I said on here a while ago that I probably read too much Asimov, Mac.

 

I think maybe you read too little.

[Dr The Singh]

On 09/05/2019 at 15:26, MattP said:

195 countries in the World - so both of those around or in the top 25% on basis of population.

 

No one can predict what sort of conflict will develop from it or how human behaviour will react, famine across Africa, China and India didn't result in worse wars than we saw in Europe - let alone make it feel like a "pleasant memory".

 

We all get the eco-warriors are going to use ridiculous hyperbole and armageddon in this argument but there is no guarantee whatsoever it's correct.

India China and Pakistan will eventually fight over water ie the Himalayas and the water it provides.  Those ice caps will melt, dams will be built, and the fun will begin.

[leicsmac]

9 hours ago, Buce said:

 

I said on here a while ago that I probably read too much Asimov, Mac.

 

I think maybe you read too little.

You know Buce, as someone who is pretty mad about science and space, to my eternal shame Asimov is indeed one of the authors I haven't read much of, yes.

 

As you say, perhaps I should read some more of his work.

 

8 hours ago, Dr The Singh said:

India China and Pakistan will eventually fight over water ie the Himalayas and the water it provides.  Those ice caps will melt, dams will be built, and the fun will begin.

Agree with this being a probable first flashpoint, yes.

 

When you have a third of the worlds population relying on an essential resource from one place and suddenly that resource looks like it might become scarce, you're absolutely right about things becoming...fun. Especially when all three major players in the area have nuclear weapons.

Edited 11 May 2019 by leicsmac

[Buce]

6 hours ago, leicsmac said:

You know Buce, as someone who is pretty mad about science and space, to my eternal shame Asimov is indeed one of the authors I haven't read much of, yes.

 

As you say, perhaps I should read some more of his work.

 

1

 

I find that somewhat surprising, Mac, particularly as much of his writing is based on the premise that humanity has spread throughout the Galaxy after making Earth uninhabitable, two themes close to your heart.

 

He was a remarkably prescient writer, predicting space flight, satellites, AI, personal computers and humaniform robotics, for example. I remember, as a teenager, reading a story in which a girl is doing her homework by speaking out loud and her words appearing instantly in print; little could I have guessed that such an unlikely thing would become commonplace, and in my lifetime.

 

If you want a brief introduction, you can read the short story, The Last Question, in which he rather cleverly squares the circle regarding Intelligent Design and Big Bang theory, here.

Edited 11 May 2019 by Buce

[Guest MattP]

20 hours ago, SO1 said:

Of course sanctions by my country have nothing to do with that.

There wasn't a single external economic trade sanction on Venezuela until 2017.

[Guest SO1]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

There wasn't a single external economic trade sanction on Venezuela until 2017.

You think everything the US does to other countries is approved by congress and the president. Ever hear of the CIA. How about the rest of Central and South America. You think the US is nice to people who don't do what american corporations want. My government will do WHATEVER it takes to bend the rest of the world to our will. We make the Nazis look like choirboys.

[leicsmac]

5 hours ago, Buce said:

 

I find that somewhat surprising, Mac, particularly as much of his writing is based on the premise that humanity has spread throughout the Galaxy after making Earth uninhabitable, two themes close to your heart.

 

He was a remarkably prescient writer, predicting space flight, satellites, AI, personal computers and humaniform robotics, for example. I remember, as a teenager, reading a story in which a girl is doing her homework by speaking out loud and her words appearing instantly in print; little could I have guessed that such an unlikely thing would become commonplace, and in my lifetime.

 

If you want a brief introduction, you can read the short story, The Last Question, in which he rather cleverly squares the circle regarding Intelligent Design and Big Bang theory, here.

Thank you - I should get more of his stuff on my reading list.

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, SO1 said:

You think everything the US does to other countries is approved by congress and the president. Ever hear of the CIA. How about the rest of Central and South America. You think the US is nice to people who don't do what american corporations want. My government will do WHATEVER it takes to bend the rest of the world to our will. We make the Nazis look like choirboys.

****ing hell

 

No idea why I'm entertaining this but why did you give up the geopolitik to Russia over Syria? Why didn't you implement sanctions on the biggest oil rich nations on your own continent? Why are you still contributing a huge % of GDP in comparison to other on NATO? What have you done that made a regime that killed millions look like choirboys?

[Guest SO1]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

****ing hell

 

No idea why I'm entertaining this but why did you give up the geopolitik to Russia over Syria? Why didn't you implement sanctions on the biggest oil rich nations on your own continent? Why are you still contributing a huge % of GDP in comparison to other on NATO? What have you done that made a regime that killed millions look like choirboys?

Iraq, Afganistan, Viet Nam, Ukraine, Syria, Libya, Yemen etc etc etc. We've created the death of millions upon millions. A 243 year legacy of violence. Russia? Please.

[Guest MattP]

46 minutes ago, SO1 said:

Iraq, Afganistan, Viet Nam, Ukraine, Syria, Libya, Yemen etc etc etc. We've created the death of millions upon millions. A 243 year legacy of violence. Russia? Please.

How the hell did "we" create the war in Ukraine, Syria or Yemen? 

[Guest SO1]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

How the hell did "we" create the war in Ukraine, Syria or Yemen? 

CIA Proxies. Surely you remember Al Queda. The army the CIA created to fight the USSR in Afghanistan. Currently fighting/stealing for my country in Syria.

Read up on Victoria Nuland and her actions in the Ukraine.

Yemen? The US government has been aiding and abetting the starvation/genocide of the Yemenese people by selling arms to and assisting the Saudi Arabian Government. 

[Dr The Singh]

3 minutes ago, SO1 said:

CIA Proxies. Surely you remember Al Queda. The army the CIA created to fight the USSR in Afghanistan. Currently fighting/stealing for my country in Syria.

Read up on Victoria Nuland and her actions in the Ukraine.

Yemen? The US government has been aiding and abetting the starvation/genocide of the Yemenese people by selling arms to and assisting the Saudi Arabian Government. 

Totally agree with proxyism, but those nations would probably destroy themselves regardless

[Guest SO1]

15 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

Totally agree with proxyism, but those nations would probably destroy themselves regardless

Seems a little unfair as these places were never countries in the first place. Maybe nations are the problem?

I believe it was the British or Dutch who were the first empire to impose its rule and set the borders so that they could control the resources(oil) that followed.

I think it has to be very hard to just throw people together of different customs and spiritual beliefs and expect them to get along, be nice, and let us plunder their resources to the last drop.

Its obvious to me now that my county doesn't give a shit about any body but the Evil Rich who run it. Its pillage and plunder 24/7. Don't like it. Try and stop us. Hard to live in peace when your in a situation like that.

Sadly when your neighbor is willing to throw you under the bus in order to get ahead or survive you know things are pretty screwed up.  Maybe that's why I believe in reincarnation. That everyone will get off the wheel of Samsara.....eventually.

[Guest MattP]

55 minutes ago, SO1 said:

CIA Proxies. Surely you remember Al Queda. The army the CIA created to fight the USSR in Afghanistan. Currently fighting/stealing for my country in Syria.

Read up on Victoria Nuland and her actions in the Ukraine.

Yemen? The US government has been aiding and abetting the starvation/genocide of the Yemenese people by selling arms to and assisting the Saudi Arabian Government. 

The CIA didn't create Al-Queda - that was an Islamist group funded to fight Russia, alliances change over time. We've helped Al-Nusra but it doesn't mean we created Islamic state.

 

How is selling arms akin to abetting a war?

 

Why are you picking on the USA given the Saudis buy arms from pretty much every Western country? 

[Guest SO1]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

The CIA didn't create Al-Queda - that was an Islamist group funded to fight Russia, alliances change over time. We've helped Al-Nusra but it doesn't mean we created Islamic state.

 

How is selling arms akin to abetting a war?

 

Why are you picking on the USA given the Saudis buy arms from pretty much every Western country? 

I disagree.

[Guest MattP]

Just now, SO1 said:

I disagree.

Any chance of answering the questions?