General Election, June 8th

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

Both parties are a shambles by usual standards but either way it goes it's not going to be a disaster. The Labour manifesto is fully costed and it's likely the more ambitious policies will be met with compromise, especially in a coalition. If you seriously think the man will keep going and going until the country was bankrupted I could imagine being as deluded as you think 'Comrade Corbyn' and his United British Soviet Republic is. 

Its not fully costed that is the problem. Its costed on a basis that people will stay, comply and pay the tax at the higher levels. The IFS and others have suggested it is extremely likely that a high tax government will drive business and investment elsewhere. It will reduce tax receipts and increase welfare spending.

 

I think the Labour party will always go on spending because they always think that someone else can pay, they always know  that eventually the Tories will get voted in and sort out their shit storm after it really starts to go tits up. Happens pretty much every time 1979, 2010 will happen again until the people of this country realise that Labour are fiscally deluded.

[tylesta]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4571622/amp/Jeremy-Corbyn-opposing-shoot-kill-policy-goes-viral.html

 

He as soon changed his mind on the shoot to kill policy. 

 

Trying to buy votes. 

[Finnaldo]

Just now, Foxin_mad said:

Its not fully costed that is the problem. Its costed on a basis that people will stay, comply and pay the tax at the higher levels. The IFS and others have suggested it is extremely likely that a high tax government will drive business and investment elsewhere. It will reduce tax receipts and increase welfare spending.

 

I think the Labour party will always go on spending because they always think that someone else can pay, they always know  that eventually the Tories will get voted in and sort out their shit storm after it really starts to go tits up. Happens pretty much every time 1979, 2010 will happen again until the people of this country realise that Labour are fiscally deluded.

 

 

The Tory manifesto is completely uncosted, by your reckoning I bet you can't believe any of that nonsense, can you?

 

If we're going to spend, I'd rather it be on key infrastructure that could help us grow. Austerity has provided nothing and people are being abused on zero hour contracts, why should people believe Conservative is the better way to go when they've provided nothing to the people or the country?

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, Foxin_mad said:

Its not fully costed that is the problem. Its costed on a basis that people will stay, comply and pay the tax at the higher levels. The IFS and others have suggested it is extremely likely that a high tax government will drive business and investment elsewhere. It will reduce tax receipts and increase welfare spending.

 

I think the Labour party will always go on spending because they always think that someone else can pay, they always know  that eventually the Tories will get voted in and sort out their shit storm after it really starts to go tits up. Happens pretty much every time 1979, 2010 will happen again until the people of this country realise that Labour are fiscally deluded.

Wow.  Can't believe people still actually blame Labour for the global financial crash, let alone go with the rhetoric that the Tories always do better with the economy when history suggests a pretty even split between the 2 major parties where if anything Labour actually have a better track record of leaving the country better off than when they took office.  Go team, eh?

 

Just now, tylesta said:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4571622/amp/Jeremy-Corbyn-opposing-shoot-kill-policy-goes-viral.html

 

He as soon changed his mind on the shoot to kill policy. 

 

Trying to buy votes. 

I agree that shoot to kill is silly, much rather have them locked up for interrogation.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Look at the costings.

You're living in cloud cuckoo land. Business rates up to a level which is less than in 2010 and still lower than the g7 average.....not going to break the economy

5% on above £80k. Of course they'll pay, it isn't ridiculous in any way to implement this policy. If it was an extra 30% you'd have a point but 5? Come on.....seriously. 

Socialist experiment? Putting back HALF of the police the tories have cut? Giving schools enough money to do their job? Taking the nhs out of crisis? Ecpecting employers to pay staff enough so that the state doesn't have to fund their survival? Which of these are loony marxist policies? They're all fundamentally sensible.

You've been brainwashed into believing that we're an extremely poor country and that deficit reduction is best done via cuts. This is nonsense. We're the 5th largest economy in the world. About time we acted like it and funded our public services properly and brought about growth - and deficit reduction - through expansion of the economy rather than regression.

They are shit.....la la land polices

 

They are taking a lot more in Corporation Tax now than they were in 2010, put up the rates businesses will close, jobs will be lost and investment will go elsewhere. I absolutely guarantee there will be major job loses if this bunch of jokers get in.

 

How do you know they will pay? I would bet again receipts will go down people will avoid it. People don't like paying tax.

 

The NHS crisis thing is complete Labour spin you have been brainwashed into believing. Our Public services are still some of the best in the world and that is a fact. We spend a shit tonne of money and there are still efficiencies to be made across the public sector, more money will create more middle management and more waste just like it did between 1997 and 2010 I have seen it first hand. I  agree cuts have no been made in the right places but the solution is not just to keep throwing more money at it either, we have hospitals spending more on loos rolls in bulk than you can buy them in Tescos, drugs being prescribed that can be purchased cheaper in Tesco's, managers doing nothing, branded drugs being used over unbranded......the list goes on there are billions to be saved in the right areas.

 

We are not a poor country but we have to live within our means.

 

There will be no expansion of the economy if you raise taxes.

 

We need to strike a centre ground balance and that is exactly what we are doing. The economy needs a good foundation to be grow, this can not be based on state spending and debt.

[davieG]

This is the self flagellation society.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

13 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

Eastern Railways was nationalised and returned £209 million back to taxpayers, with high customer satisfaction.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nationalised-east-coast-rail-line-returns-209m-to-taxpayers-8866157.html

One good example. I'm not necessarily against Nationalisation done in the correct way but I also do remember that British Rail was an absolute ****ing shambles.

 

There are some terrible unprofitable rail franchises, there are some companies like Virgin who have invested a lot and made huge service improvements.

[Finnaldo]

8 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

One good example. I'm not necessarily against Nationalisation done in the correct way but I also do remember that British Rail was an absolute ****ing shambles.

 

There are some terrible unprofitable rail franchises, there are some companies like Virgin who have invested a lot and made huge service improvements.

 

I had a look online for Customer reviews for Virgin Trains

 

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.virgintrains.co.uk

 

Nationalisation is needed and if it's possible on one of the mainlines to such a standard we should be looking to implement it on a full scale. 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

10 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

 

The Tory manifesto is completely uncosted, by your reckoning I bet you can't believe any of that nonsense, can you?

 

If we're going to spend, I'd rather it be on key infrastructure that could help us grow. Austerity has provided nothing and people are being abused on zero hour contracts, why should people believe Conservative is the better way to go when they've provided nothing to the people or the country?

I agree its a bad manifesto, yes. In my opinion they will have to make tax rises for a lot of people to pay for things, obviously if you advertise this you will lose a lot of votes but it is a fact, if we want to increase public spending we all need top pay more in tax.

 

Some people on Zero hour contracts find them useful and flexible as they can refuse a days work if needed, its part of being a flexible economy. Its funny how many labour run councils still use them as well.

 

The conservatives have proved millions of jobs for millions of people and the possibility to work hard and achieve better lives.

 

What have Labour provided for the country, debt for generations, PFI hospital, new schools unfit for purpose, a public sector filled with incompetent middle managers who do everything to protect their own jobs and departments.

 

Labour had an opportunity to build infrastructure between 1997 and 2010, house building was low, they PFI'ed hospitals and Schools, didn't plan an energy strategy for the future, invested little in road and rail. I am not actually sure what they spent all the money on.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

6 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

I had a look online for Customer reviews for Virgin Trains

 

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.virgintrains.co.uk

 

Nationalisation is needed and if it's possible on one of the mainlines to such a standard we should be looking to implement it on a full scale. 

Personally I am loathed to trust these review sites but fair enough, people rarely log on to comment what excellent service they have. I would love to see a review for British Rail.

 

I have travelled on the West Coast Mainline for many years and can say now it is significantly better now than it was but I am not sure on the other franchises.

 

Mainlines will be profitable I am sure, its the rural lines and less used routes that will be problematic.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

They are shit.....la la land polices

 

They are taking a lot more in Corporation Tax now than they were in 2010, put up the rates businesses will close, jobs will be lost and investment will go elsewhere. I absolutely guarantee there will be major job loses if this bunch of jokers get in.

 

How do you know they will pay? I would bet again receipts will go down people will avoid it. People don't like paying tax.

 

The NHS crisis thing is complete Labour spin you have been brainwashed into believing. Our Public services are still some of the best in the world and that is a fact. We spend a shit tonne of money and there are still efficiencies to be made across the public sector, more money will create more middle management and more waste just like it did between 1997 and 2010 I have seen it first hand. I  agree cuts have no been made in the right places but the solution is not just to keep throwing more money at it either, we have hospitals spending more on loos rolls in bulk than you can buy them in Tescos, drugs being prescribed that can be purchased cheaper in Tesco's, managers doing nothing, branded drugs being used over unbranded......the list goes on there are billions to be saved in the right areas.

 

We are not a poor country but we have to live within our means.

 

There will be no expansion of the economy if you raise taxes.

 

We need to strike a centre ground balance and that is exactly what we are doing. The economy needs a good foundation to be grow, this can not be based on state spending and debt.

You are absolutely deluded.

The last 7 years of tory rule have been disastrous on every level and have left us on the precipice of financial oblivion.

[Rincewind]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

You are absolutely deluded.

The last 7 years of tory rule have been disastrous on every level and have left us on the precipice of financial oblivion.

Thats for Corbyn to say when elected just before he announces there is not as much in the cupboard as he thought.

[Finnaldo]

1 minute ago, Foxin_mad said:

I agree its a bad manifesto, yes. In my opinion they will have to make tax rises for a lot of people to pay for things, obviously if you advertise this you will lose a lot of votes but it is a fact, if we want to increase public spending we all need top pay more in tax.

 

Some people on Zero hour contracts find them useful and flexible as they can refuse a days work if needed, its part of being a flexible economy. Its funny how many labour run councils still use them as well.

 

The conservatives have proved millions of jobs for millions of people and the possibility to work hard and achieve better lives.

 

What have Labour provided for the country, debt for generations, PFI hospital, new schools unfit for purpose, a public sector filled with incompetent middle managers who do everything to protect their own jobs and departments.

 

Labour had an opportunity to build infrastructure between 1997 and 2010, house building was low, they PFI'ed hospitals and Schools, didn't plan an energy strategy for the future, invested little in road and rail. I am not actually sure what they spent all the money on.

 

 

'Some people' doesn't make the thousands of others shafted by it, there's almost a million people on zero hour contracts, it should be optional not a preferential employment technique.

 

You can ask NHS staff about working hard and achieving better lives when their pay has been frozen for years on end.

 

Labour from 1997-2010 was neoliberal, it was placed on the right by some political compasses during the 2015 election. Corbyn pulling it somewhat to the left doesn't make it the Worker's Revolutionary Party.

[Voll Blau]

Apologies if this has been linked to on the thread before, but this features a searchable map of likely outcomes for each constituency from Yougov. Fascinating stuff.

 

https://yougov.co.uk/uk-general-election-2017/

[Finnaldo]

6 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Personally I am loathed to trust these review sites but fair enough, people rarely log on to comment what excellent service they have. I would love to see a review for British Rail.

 

I have travelled on the West Coast Mainline for many years and can say now it is significantly better now than it was but I am not sure on the other franchises.

 

Mainlines will be profitable I am sure, its the rural lines and less used routes that will be problematic.

 

You could argue if the mainline pull in such a profit, some of that could be fed through to minor lines to keep the service up to scratch.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

Just now, toddybad said:

You are absolutely deluded.

The last 7 years of tory rule have been disastrous on every level and have left us on the precipice of financial oblivion.

You are deluded if you think that Labour and Corbyn and a Socialist state can fix the problem with a magic money tree.

 

That is your opinion, the economy is still growing albeit slower, the deficit is down and on track to clear by 2022, we have record employment, record tax receipts and record government spending in certain areas.

 

This economy is on the route to great things where everyone who works hard will be rewarded if we continue to be diligent, things needed to be fixed and the government and all of us have worked hard to make us more sustainable. The better the economy the better the future will be and the better services we can have.

 

We can not invest imaginary money we do not have into an endless pit of socialist experiments.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said:

You are deluded if you think that Labour and Corbyn and a Socialist state can fix the problem with a magic money tree.

 

That is your opinion, the economy is still growing albeit slower, the deficit is down and on track to clear by 2022, we have record employment, record tax receipts and record government spending in certain areas.

 

This economy is on the route to great things where everyone who works hard will be rewarded if we continue to be diligent, things needed to be fixed and the government and all of us have worked hard to make us more sustainable. The better the economy the better the future will be and the better services we can have.

 

We can not invest imaginary money we do not have into an endless pit of socialist experiments.

Shot! 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

 

'Some people' doesn't make the thousands of others shafted by it, there's almost a million people on zero hour contracts, it should be optional not a preferential employment technique.

 

You can ask NHS staff about working hard and achieving better lives when their pay has been frozen for years on end.

 

Labour from 1997-2010 was neoliberal, it was placed on the right by some political compasses during the 2015 election. Corbyn pulling it somewhat to the left doesn't make it the Worker's Revolutionary Party.

I agree but if you ban it, some people may be disadvantaged. It is optional and not preferential so there are 1 million on zeros hours contracts out of roughly 60 million employed in the UK, its not really that much of a problem I would say.

 

NHS staff who under a recklessly spending government with no money at all might have no job or may go with out pay for months whilst we go to the IMF for bail out money. To be honest I would always rather a pay freeze than no job.

 

I am sure if the Labour mess is ever sorted, and the economy grows more pay will be increased sustainably as a reward.

[RobHawk]

50 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Not over a terror attack, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest the attack would not have happened if we had 100000 more Police on the streets, which we cant afford anyway at present.

 

Perhaps a party should be honest and say we will put 1p on the income tax of everyone for various schemes, instead of hard hitting those who create jobs and invest in training.

Pretty sure the lib dems did just that - to fund the NHs no less! Look where they are in your polls! 

Honesty and sense don't work because theres too many knee jerk reacting trolls around to see the bigger picture! What we do have is 2 very different options, 1 option to continue as we are or one to spend some money in an attempt to get the economy up and running again. 

 

Many employers i know do not create many jobs and certainly don't invest in training. As someone who is working to create their own business myself and can see that some changes may effect me negatively, but thats ok, because it will be helping others who probably need a bit of help more than i will! 

[tylesta]

41 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Wow.  Can't believe people still actually blame Labour for the global financial crash, let alone go with the rhetoric that the Tories always do better with the economy when history suggests a pretty even split between the 2 major parties where if anything Labour actually have a better track record of leaving the country better off than when they took office.  Go team, eh?

 

I agree that shoot to kill is silly, much rather have them locked up for interrogation.

Shoot to kill if you ask me. What if the vest was real that these cowards had on could of took more people plus police out

[Guest Foxin_mad]

37 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Wow.  Can't believe people still actually blame Labour for the global financial crash, let alone go with the rhetoric that the Tories always do better with the economy when history suggests a pretty even split between the 2 major parties where if anything Labour actually have a better track record of leaving the country better off than when they took office.  Go team, eh?

 

I agree that shoot to kill is silly, much rather have them locked up for interrogation.

The financial crash wasn't Labours fault although they did loosen some rules in the City to their advantage in the early 2000s, the fact that they continued to borrow on an upwards trend during the boom years was their fault. During a huge boom period they should have saved to fix leaky roof one day.

 

I think they were responsible for the times where we had to almost go cap in hand to the IMF in 76, and Thatcher had the biggest most  ****ed up mess to sort out ever in 1979.

 

Labour have made some great improvements to our country over the years Atlee and Bevan era in particular.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

15 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

You could argue if the mainline pull in such a profit, some of that could be fed through to minor lines to keep the service up to scratch.

Possibly, it would all have to be costed and fully consulted. As I say I am not against nationalisation of certain things but, it has to provide a good service. For example with BT you used to have to wait 6 months for a phone line pre privatisation! they are a lot better now. British Rail was massively loss making unionised and rubbish so we would have to ensure that we didn't return to those days.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

You are deluded if you think that Labour and Corbyn and a Socialist state can fix the problem with a magic money tree.

 

That is your opinion, the economy is still growing albeit slower, the deficit is down and on track to clear by 2022, we have record employment, record tax receipts and record government spending in certain areas.

 

This economy is on the route to great things where everyone who works hard will be rewarded if we continue to be diligent, things needed to be fixed and the government and all of us have worked hard to make us more sustainable. The better the economy the better the future will be and the better services we can have.

 

We can not invest imaginary money we do not have into an endless pit of socialist experiments.

You're either employed by the tories or have swallowed their lexicon whole. 

 

The state they've got us into:

- lowest growth in the G7

- only London and the south east have gdp's which have reached 2008 levels. Every other part of the uk is miles behind where they were. 

- wages falling

- public sector wages stagnated for almost a decade

- 20k less police than in 2010

- police saying that tory figures are lies and they need more officers

- nhs in crisis. I work with senior staff in the nhs, have been part of discussions over savings and accounts, and they're is real concern about patient safety

- schools begging parents for money

- schools getting rid of teachers and subjects to save money

- students in unprecedented levels of debt

 

It is absolute fallacy to say things are going well or even in the right direction. Money is needed in the real economy to get us growing again. 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

10 minutes ago, RobHawk said:

Pretty sure the lib dems did just that - to fund the NHs no less! Look where they are in your polls! 

Honesty and sense don't work because theres too many knee jerk reacting trolls around to see the bigger picture! What we do have is 2 very different options, 1 option to continue as we are or one to spend some money in an attempt to get the economy up and running again. 

 

Many employers i know do not create many jobs and certainly don't invest in training. As someone who is working to create their own business myself and can see that some changes may effect me negatively, but thats ok, because it will be helping others who probably need a bit of help more than i will! 

Lib Dems generally are honest a shame they lost face with the tuition fees thing. It is why they have not said they need to raise taxes, Farron is also not great IMO.

 

So pretty much both parties are lying, not there is absolutely no way Labour can ever fund what they say they will and sustain business growth in this country.

 

Spend some money from where and on what? The economy is already growing, has been for sometime and will continue to do so albeit slowly.

 

I don't understand the logic that spending money we don't have boosts the economy, its a fallacy.

 

If I go out today and get a £10000 loan and spend it on a new car, it doesn't make me better off or more able to do something yet I still have to pay the loan back at £200 a month! Which is coming out of my GDP or wage! so I have less of it to spend now! and in the future.

 

There are a lot of employers that do create jobs and do invest in training, there are a lot of good businesses. Employment and investment in training is higher now than it has ever been. Big businesses will be hit by high corporation tax, they will have to make redundancies, the higher tax may fund the jobs of 1-2 people depending on profits.

 

[RobHawk]

Just now, Foxin_mad said:

Lib Dems generally are honest a shame they lost face with the tuition fees thing. It is why they have not said they need to raise taxes, Farron is also not great IMO.

 

So pretty much both parties are lying, not there is absolutely no way Labour can ever fund what they say they will and sustain business growth in this country.

 

Spend some money from where and on what? The economy is already growing, has been for sometime and will continue to do so albeit slowly.

 

I don't understand the logic that spending money we don't have boosts the economy, its a fallacy.

 

If I go out today and get a £10000 loan and spend it on a new car, it doesn't make me better off or more able to do something yet I still have to pay the loan back at £200 a month! Which is coming out of my GDP or wage! so I have less of it to spend now! and in the future.

 

There are a lot of employers that do create jobs and do invest in training, there are a lot of good businesses. Employment and investment in training is higher now than it has ever been. Big businesses will be hit by high corporation tax, they will have to make redundancies, the higher tax may fund the jobs of 1-2 people depending on profits.

 

And now i know theres no point debating with you - If you think the economy of a country and be compared to buying a car - you clearly have no clue.

Normally thats ok - I'm no genius - theres people hear who know alot more than me, but if you can't grasp the basics and talk everyone down like you are, it tells me your a troll and theres no point! So until Matt, Jon, stokes etc come back with sensible debate! I'm out!