General Election, June 8th

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Lib Dems generally are honest a shame they lost face with the tuition fees thing. It is why they have not said they need to raise taxes, Farron is also not great IMO.

 

So pretty much both parties are lying, not there is absolutely no way Labour can ever fund what they say they will and sustain business growth in this country.

 

Spend some money from where and on what? The economy is already growing, has been for sometime and will continue to do so albeit slowly.

 

I don't understand the logic that spending money we don't have boosts the economy, its a fallacy.

 

If I go out today and get a £10000 loan and spend it on a new car, it doesn't make me better off or more able to do something yet I still have to pay the loan back at £200 a month! Which is coming out of my GDP or wage! so I have less of it to spend now! and in the future.

 

There are a lot of employers that do create jobs and do invest in training, there are a lot of good businesses. Employment and investment in training is higher now than it has ever been. Big businesses will be hit by high corporation tax, they will have to make redundancies, the higher tax may fund the jobs of 1-2 people depending on profits.

 

The economy is not the same as your household income and expenditure. 

 

All money is created through the creation of debt, either by central banks or through retail banks. There is no other money. 

 

I'd school you now but i really can't be bothered as we've been over this many times on this thread. You haven't a clue as your paragraph about borrowing shows. Go and read up on the subject before you go round spouting crap.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

10 minutes ago, toddybad said:

You're either employed by the tories or have swallowed their lexicon whole. 

 

The state they've got us into:

- lowest growth in the G7

- only London and the south east have gdp's which have reached 2008 levels. Every other part of the uk is miles behind where they were. 

- wages falling

- public sector wages stagnated for almost a decade

- 20k less police than in 2010

- police saying that tory figures are lies and they need more officers

- nhs in crisis. I work with senior staff in the nhs, have been part of discussions over savings and accounts, and they're is real concern about patient safety

- schools begging parents for money

- schools getting rid of teachers and subjects to save money

- students in unprecedented levels of debt

 

It is absolute fallacy to say things are going well or even in the right direction. Money is needed in the real economy to get us growing again. 

Your either employed by Labour or swallowed their manifesto whole:

 

- Growth is better than recession, which Labour would cause

- recovery takes time

- low wages better than no job

- public sector jobs have been saved on frozen wages

- any evidence to suggest have 100000 police on the streets would make any difference

-the rest is rather subjective and not worth answering

 

So where does the money come from then?

 

I would rather Labour be honest and say they are going to tax us all a lot more, which is what will have to happen to fund their spending. Their costing's are fag packet stuff and based on assumptions that businesses and the rich will just comply and pay up. I can assure you that logic says they will not collect their forecasted receipts look at the trends (lower taxes = higher receipts (less reason to off shore, avoid) higher taxes = less receipts (businesses offshore, move, or avoid), so how will they fund it?

 

With powerful unions. low productivity, high red tape and high tax. This would be an awful place to do business.

 

Unemployment will sky rocket.

 

I hope the magic money tree has some money left for me.

 

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Your either employed by Labour or swallowed their manifesto whole:

 

- Growth is better than recession, which Labour would cause

- recovery takes time

- low wages better than no job

- public sector jobs have been saved on frozen wages

- any evidence to suggest have 100000 police on the streets would make any difference

-the rest is rather subjective and not worth answering

 

So where does the money come from then?

 

I would rather Labour be honest and say they are going to tax us all a lot more, which is what will have to happen to fund their spending. Their costing's are fag packet stuff and based on assumptions that businesses and the rich will just comply and pay up. I can assure you that logic says they will not collect their forecasted receipts look at the trends (lower taxes = higher receipts (less reason to off shore, avoid) higher taxes = less receipts (businesses offshore, move, or avoid), so how will they fund it?

 

With powerful unions. low productivity, high red tape and high tax. This would be an awful place to do business.

 

Unemployment will sky rocket.

 

I hope the magic money tree has some money left for me.

 

 

You are trying to counter facts with opinion. That is the same awful route the tories are going down. Its an argument you can't win so you just bluster unfounded nonsense instead. 

 

Somehow we're being asked to believe that decades of prosperity was a fluke and that austerity politics - despite the fact they are failing by every measure - is the only sensible way to run a country. It's madness. 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

14 minutes ago, toddybad said:

The economy is not the same as your household income and expenditure. 

 

All money is created through the creation of debt, either by central banks or through retail banks. There is no other money. 

 

I'd school you now but i really can't be bothered as we've been over this many times on this thread. You haven't a clue as your paragraph about borrowing shows. Go and read up on the subject before you go round spouting crap.

FFS, you are the one spouting crap. I understand exactly how it works.

 

It was a basic simplified example, the fundamentals are exactly the same and this is why Socialists should never be allowed to run a country ever.

 

All money is created by debt? Arguable? Assets, Deposits

 

There is a lot of debt, too much debt in the world. We should not be making more

 

So basically what you advocate is printing imaginary money to spend and generating high inflation? Well done..........go look at Venuzela or better still go a live there and send me a report on how great Socialist economics are.

[Captain...]

1 hour ago, tylesta said:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4571622/amp/Jeremy-Corbyn-opposing-shoot-kill-policy-goes-viral.html

 

He as soon changed his mind on the shoot to kill policy. 

 

Trying to buy votes. 

Yes he changed his mind 2 years ago:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/34840708

 

 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

6 minutes ago, toddybad said:

You are trying to counter facts with opinion. That is the same awful route the tories are going down. Its an argument you can't win so you just bluster unfounded nonsense instead. 

 

Somehow we're being asked to believe that decades of prosperity was a fluke and that austerity politics - despite the fact they are failing by every measure - is the only sensible way to run a country. It's madness. 

So are you, I've seen little factual information in this thread, its mainly opinion from both sides. I can win because Labour as a fact can not and will not be able to afford what they promise. All I want to know is where does the money come from? Have they added into their figures they higher numbers of benefit claims due to mass unemployment?

 

If we have had decades of prosperity why do we have £1.6 trillion of debt? Why were we running a deficit between 2002-2008?

[tylesta]

4 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Yes he changed his mind 2 years ago:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/34840708

 

 

He says that shoot to kill endangers us all in that pal he changed is take on it after the terror attack on saturday/sunday. 

[Captain...]

4 minutes ago, tylesta said:

He says that shoot to kill endangers us all in that pal he changed is take on it after the terror attack on saturday/sunday. 

His initial comments were that it endangers us, but after being questioned over his comments he clarified and confirmed he supported any action needed to protect civilian life.

 

Yesterday: But in a speech in Carlisle last night, he claimed he now supported the right of the police to use ‘whatever force is necessary’

 

Nov 2015: Jeremy Corbyn says he supports any "strictly necessary force" needed to protect the UK in a terrorist attack.

 

[Realist Guy In The Room]

Whilst the debate about money trees, cuts, lies, austerity, investment go on, it is absolutely fooking brilliant to actually have a clear ideological choice at this election.

 

We know exactly what the Tories are about (short/med term pain and possible long term gain) and exactly what Labour are about (short term gain and fingers crossed everything works perfectly for long term gain but more likely long term pain).

 

Its all about knowing your life wont be great (Tory) or not knowing (Labour).  People are generally averse to risk so the Conservatives will win.

[Realist Guy In The Room]

3 minutes ago, Captain... said:

His initial comments were that it endangers us, but after being questioned over his comments he clarified and confirmed he supported any action needed to protect civilian life.

 

Yesterday: But in a speech in Carlisle last night, he claimed he now supported the right of the police to use ‘whatever force is necessary’

 

Nov 2015: Jeremy Corbyn says he supports any "strictly necessary force" needed to protect the UK in a terrorist attack.

 

A bystander was shot on Saturday so his stance wasn't wrong, the practicality is though that that's a necessary evil.

 

 

[The Floyd]

3 hours ago, toddybad said:

You're either employed by the tories or have swallowed their lexicon whole. 

 

The state they've got us into:

- lowest growth in the G7

- only London and the south east have gdp's which have reached 2008 levels. Every other part of the uk is miles behind where they were. 

- wages falling

- public sector wages stagnated for almost a decade

- 20k less police than in 2010

- police saying that tory figures are lies and they need more officers

- nhs in crisis. I work with senior staff in the nhs, have been part of discussions over savings and accounts, and they're is real concern about patient safety

- schools begging parents for money

- schools getting rid of teachers and subjects to save money

- students in unprecedented levels of debt

 

It is absolute fallacy to say things are going well or even in the right direction. Money is needed in the real economy to get us growing again. 

Your first and second points are incredibly misleading. The UK had the second fastest growing economy of the G7 in 2016 under Tory gov. 'Lowest growth' is based on Q1 of 2017 only, which in recent years has been traditionally lower.

 

I couldn't find GDP data from 2008 but I suspect they're not 'miles behind'. A CEBR report in January predicted that the value of goods and services produced in Greater Manchester will grow by 0.7 per cent during 2017. GDP doesn't tell the full story either, investment in both Manchester and Sheffield has risen greatly over the past few years but it will take time before this investment comes to fruition and can contribute to level of GDP. 

[Captain...]

22 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said:

A bystander was shot on Saturday so his stance wasn't wrong, the practicality is though that that's a necessary evil.

 

 

It's horrific that we have got to a state where we need armed response and that shoot to kill is necessary. You're right the fact that a bystander got shot just shows how this is not something to be taken lightly and not something we want to see, but it is a necessary evil and one Corbyn accepted in 2015 not yesterday.

[Buce]

1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said:

Lib Dems generally are honest a shame they lost face with the tuition fees thing. It is why they have not said they need to raise taxes, Farron is also not great IMO.

 

So pretty much both parties are lying, not there is absolutely no way Labour can ever fund what they say they will and sustain business growth in this country.

 

Spend some money from where and on what? The economy is already growing, has been for sometime and will continue to do so albeit slowly.

 

I don't understand the logic that spending money we don't have boosts the economy, its a fallacy.

 

If I go out today and get a £10000 loan and spend it on a new car, it doesn't make me better off or more able to do something yet I still have to pay the loan back at £200 a month! Which is coming out of my GDP or wage! so I have less of it to spend now! and in the future.

 

There are a lot of employers that do create jobs and do invest in training, there are a lot of good businesses. Employment and investment in training is higher now than it has ever been. Big businesses will be hit by high corporation tax, they will have to make redundancies, the higher tax may fund the jobs of 1-2 people depending on profits.

 

 

Fallacy

 

Fal-uh-see

noun, plural fallacies.

1.

a deceptive, misleading, or false notion, belief, etc.:

That the world is flat was at one time a popular fallacy.

2.

a misleading or unsound argument.

3.

deceptive, misleading, or false nature; erroneousness.

4.

Logic. any of various types of erroneous reasoning that render arguments logically unsound.

5.

Anything that foxin-mad is too dumb to understand.

 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Fallacy

 

Fal-uh-see

noun, plural fallacies.

1.

a deceptive, misleading, or false notion, belief, etc.:

That the world is flat was at one time a popular fallacy.

2.

a misleading or unsound argument.

3.

deceptive, misleading, or false nature; erroneousness.

4.

Logic. any of various types of erroneous reasoning that render arguments logically unsound.

5.

Anything that foxin-mad is too dumb to understand.

 

This is the truth of his rants this morning. 

[Foxxed]

It's mad that Corbyn said May should resign over police funding.

 

There's a damn election. We are choosing this for her.

 

The fact Steve Hilton, Cameron's old advisor, has said the same is just bizarre.

[ramboacdc]

13 minutes ago, Foxxed said:

It's mad that Corbyn said May should resign over police funding.

 

There's a damn election. We are choosing this for her.

 

The fact Steve Hilton, Cameron's old advisor, has said the same is just bizarre.

thats the point he was making. his next line was "but we can do something about this on thursday"

 

Also the polls are starting to get stupid. ICM saying Tories + 11 on labour. yougov calling 305 NOC. 

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, ramboacdc said:

thats the point he was making. his next line was "but we can do something about this on thursday"

 

Also the polls are starting to get stupid. ICM saying Tories + 11 on labour. yougov calling 305 NOC. 

That's the thing with our electoral system though, points have never necessarily meant prizes.

 

Mentioned it earlier but I do find this Yougov stuff fascinating and the graphics they produced are quite informative. Big risk from them to poll by constituency as they have though, they could look well out of the loop come Friday.

[ramboacdc]

Just now, Voll Blau said:

That's the thing with our electoral system though, points have never necessarily meant prizes.

 

Mentioned it earlier but I do find this Yougov stuff fascinating and the graphics they produced are quite informative. Big risk from them to poll by constituency as they have though, they could look well out of the loop come Friday.

true. their predictions in 2015 were way off! 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

Fallacy

 

Fal-uh-see

noun, plural fallacies.

1.

a deceptive, misleading, or false notion, belief, etc.:

That the world is flat was at one time a popular fallacy.

2.

a misleading or unsound argument.

3.

deceptive, misleading, or false nature; erroneousness.

4.

Logic. any of various types of erroneous reasoning that render arguments logically unsound.

5.

Anything that foxin-mad is too dumb to understand.

 

Ahhh the old 'Kinder caring politics' of the left. If you do not agree with me you are dumb. Member of Momentum?

 

Well no actually I am not but what the **** do you know?

 

Using debt to stimulate and economy already filled with debt is a stupid dumb idea but you are advocating it, it will not work. I hope the money tree will provide for me when it fails.

 

Maybe we to can have doctors rioting in the streets like Venezuela when we  end up like the state Corbyn calls inspirational. Danger, dangerous man. Lets not forget Venezuela has one of the largest oil reserves in the world and it is screwed by Socialism......go read about it.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

47 minutes ago, Foxxed said:

It's mad that Corbyn said May should resign over police funding.

 

There's a damn election. We are choosing this for her.

 

The fact Steve Hilton, Cameron's old advisor, has said the same is just bizarre.

Corbyn has a cheek. He should quit after voting against every piece of anti terrorist legislation:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40111329

 

The man is a dangerous terrorist sympathiser, he should be locked up.

[ramboacdc]

to keep this vaguely leicester relevant. Everyone's favourite attention seeking WAG is at it again tweeting how she agrees with woman of the people Katie Hopkins.

 

 

[Rincewind]

1 hour ago, Captain... said:

It's horrific that we have got to a state where we need armed response and that shoot to kill is necessary. You're right the fact that a bystander got shot just shows how this is not something to be taken lightly and not something we want to see, but it is a necessary evil and one Corbyn accepted in 2015 not yesterday.

There was a few posts on Facebook about it having a go at Corbyn for what he said. They however missed vital words out of the opening line. What Corbyn said he is not keen on shoot to kill IN GENERAL.'

Without the last two words the context is lost. In his speech in Carlisle he praised the armed police for their quick response and that it saved lives

Shoot to kill should be a last resort action which I believe in the main it is but we cannot go down the road where someone with a backpack is shot when approaching a woman, the woman screams causing a nearby officer to blow his brains out as he takes a map out of his pocket.

Some will say 'Well he could have been about to trigger a bomb'

Well maybe, after all that morning the Sun warned people to watch out for suspicious men carrying back packs and the woman had remembered that. So it was the blokes fault for not putting his hands up before the policeman asked him to.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Corbyn has a cheek. He should quit after voting against every piece of anti terrorist legislation:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40111329

 

The man is a dangerous terrorist sympathiser, he should be locked up.

 

Terrorism really is the buzz-word right now, isn't it?

 

Plays right into the hands of the Tories, of course - they know they have the market cornered regarding that nebulous entity known as 'national security'.

[Finnaldo]

4 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Corbyn has a cheek. He should quit after voting against every piece of anti terrorist legislation:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40111329

 

The man is a dangerous terrorist sympathiser, he should be locked up.

 

 

Looking down that list, May only voted for a couple more than Corbyn did. And I imagine the objection came from detention without charge and invasive policies. Personally I disagree with his voting in the Terrorism Act 2000 but other than that I can see his reasoning. Calling him a terrorist sympathiser off the back of that, however, is ludicrous.

 

Meanwhile, Amber Rudd shut down an independent speaker over the government's involvement with the Saudis, I can't be bothered to go over the government's involvement with a terrorism exporter for a fifth time because it's becoming more and more obvious.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Terrorism really is the buzz-word right now, isn't it?

 

Plays right into the hands of the Tories, of course - they know they have the market cornered regarding that nebulous entity known as 'national security'.

Actually they do not. I really think our electorate might be to deluded by the promise of lots of free things that cant be paid for.

 

There are many, many failings in Tory policy, but at least what they are trying to do is sustainable and workable long term.

 

Employing 20k new police tomorrow will make no difference. Response time was world class, whether the Police are underfunded and the reasons behind that are a different matter. As are the ACTUAL sustainable solutions.......not involving made up money we don't have.