Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest Foxin_mad]

19 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Id happily see the leadership and half the shadow cabinet replaced and agree out would boost the ratings.same policies but different leader would result in a landslide win imho.

Absolutely. I would seriously consider voting for Labour if they had a half decent leader in place. Sadly they don't. 

 

For me I would like to see them be more pro Europe, in terms of either stopping (Brexit which would probably be a vote loser) or at least striking a deal similar to Switzerland but including Financial services. I could be wrong but it looks as though the EU will do everything they can to make sure we do not get a good deal that has everything we want. Labours 'a customs union' to me seems rather pointless when we may as well just stay in the single market, the problem here is we cant negotiate our own deals, so we are kind of back to the question of what is the point? To me there are two options:

 

1. Go for hard Brexit and cross out fingers

2. Scrap the whole thing

 

We will probably end up with some bastardised half and half bollocks that will have the worst of all worlds. Tied to the EU but with no power to influence decisions and no power to strike our own deals. 

 

 

Edited 26 April 2018 by Foxin_mad

[Guest MattP]

Is there a single Labour voter/member/supporter on here that can explain to me why it's a good idea to stay in the Customs Union but not the Single Market?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Another cracking story on Internal Labour and Barmy Chris, MP turns up to give evidence against someone who threw anti-semitic abuse at her - Chris Williamson turns up to give a character reference for the abuser.

 

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/94662/chris-williamson-condemned-being-character-witness

 

This is the sort of crap that's getting wearing.

[Kopfkino]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Is there a single Labour voter/member/supporter on here that can explain to me why it's a good idea to stay in the Customs Union but not the Single Market?

 

Tbf I don't think those that support staying in the/a CU are opposed to being in the SM. But staying in the SM is politically impossible because of the lack of control over immigration so from a policy point of view it has to be this way to appeal to a broader coalition of voters.

Nothing to do with good idea or bad idea. In reality, the good idea would be leave CU and stay in SM. (Of the two)

Edited 26 April 2018 by Kopfkino

[Guest Foxin_mad]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Another cracking story on Internal Labour and Barmy Chris, MP turns up to give evidence against someone who threw anti-semitic abuse at her - Chris Williamson turns up to give a character reference for the abuser.

 

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/94662/chris-williamson-condemned-being-character-witness

 

They have a HUGE problem internally in there. It interesting as Labour has had quite a bad internal culture for a while now, perhaps as far back as Brown, People like  Forsyth,  Cox who apparently have developed culture issues wherever they have lead since.

 

Now you have the pretty disgusting momentum lot backed up by horrible ***** like Milne. The party seems to be eating itself from within. Its quite funny that those who claim to be 'so ethical' and 'championing social justice' are actually some of the most despicable horrible people you could meet. 

 

I mean Chris Williamson is just a twat, I can not believe people actually voted for the man.  

[Guest MattP]

10 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

I mean Chris Williamson is just a twat, I can not believe people actually voted for the man.  

Pretty staggering but I imagine a lot of them just voted Labour without any knowledge of the local candidate - with his profile now I doubt he'll retain the seat next time around.

[Sharpe's Fox]

35 minutes ago, MattP said:

Is there a single Labour voter/member/supporter on here that can explain to me why it's a good idea to stay in the Customs Union but not the Single Market?

Brings down the government 

[Strokes]

40 minutes ago, MattP said:

Is there a single Labour voter/member/supporter on here that can explain to me why it's a good idea to stay in the Customs Union but not the Single Market?

I doubt it because there isn’t one.

[Guest MattP]

19 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Brings down the government 

But it won't. While Labour have any chance of winning an election we aren't going to the polls until 2022.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

Goodness me what a pillock. Its whilst the hard left have dinosaurs like this cretin in positions of power and influence that they absolutely should not be taken seriously. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43897221

 

It wont go away until the far left extremists are removed from the party. Its fundamental in the far left extremist mentality.

[Guest MattP]

6 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Goodness me what a pillock. Its whilst the hard left have dinosaurs like this cretin in positions of power and influence that they absolutely should not be taken seriously. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43897221

 

It wont go away until the far left extremists are removed from the party. Its fundamental in the far left extremist mentality.

The party of Hardie and Attlee.

 

How did it come to this?

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

The party of Hardie and Attlee.

 

How did it come to this?

Disgraceful Corbyn should quit now. This nonsense is destroying the only credible alternative to govern the country. 

 

I wonder if Stammer 'Is going to be held to account' for rightfully speaking out against this prehistoric old twat. The more I see of Stammer to be fair I do agree with what toddy is say regarding him being potential leadership material. 

 

[Kopfkino]

Labour 22 points ahead in London. Mind the gap

 

[Guest MattP]

5 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Labour 22 points ahead in London. Mind the gap

 

Tory fightback

[Guest Foxin_mad]

4 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Labour 22 points ahead in London. Mind the gap

 

You do have to question whether some people actually have brains. A city who's entire economy is based on the wealth generated by international banking voting for a man who hates the banks, hates the city. I wonder if they will love him as much when they lose their jobs?

[Kopfkino]

7 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

You do have to question whether some people actually have brains. A city who's entire economy is based on the wealth generated by international banking voting for a man who hates the banks, hates the city. I wonder if they will love him as much when they lose their jobs?

 

The majority of people voting Labour are people who share Corbyn's dislike for a lot of what makes London successful because they don't see it. Its not really much of a surprise that people who are paying many hundreds of pounds a month to rent a room in a flatshare into their late 20s feel Corbyn offers some hope. Add in the disconnect between London and the rest of the country whereby Londoners feel the Conservatives govern slightly paradoxically for both the country toffs and northern racists (I have heard on many occasions), plus Brexit and the generally more progressive feeling in London. 

[Guest MattP]

It's not exactly a huge surprise either, the Tories didn't hit 30% in London in 2014 and Miliband took 43% of the vote in the capital.

 

The demographics in London are perfect for Labour as well. Huge BME community, younger, gayer than the rest of the nation.

 

 

Edited 26 April 2018 by MattP

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said:

Disgraceful Corbyn should quit now. This nonsense is destroying the only credible alternative to govern the country. 

 

I wonder if Stammer 'Is going to be held to account' for rightfully speaking out against this prehistoric old twat. The more I see of Stammer to be fair I do agree with what toddy is say regarding him being potential leadership material. 

 

Starmar would destroy the Tories tbh. And I really mean destroy them. He's a clever chap and their bluster wouldn't be catching him off guard.

 

Re Corbyn I've already said I'd prefer a different leader so how you won't accuse me of pro-corbyn bias but you can't blame him for what McCluskey says simply because they get on. Corbyn has been extremely clear that the party has an issue it needs to address and has actually confronted it really rather well in recent days. This is where the way it is reported is horribly skewed. You might recall me listing dozens of tory incidents of racism and anti semitism recently. The Tories, and more broadly the right, have also been found to be more anti semitic by both parliamentary and independent reports. Yet the Tories are happy to finger point and launch personal attacks about corbyn's failings but simultaneously don't absolutely nothing themselves. It's not a one party issue but is being reported like a one party issue. That's a problem.

Edited 26 April 2018 by Guest

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

The Tories, and more broadly the right, have also been found to be more anti semitic by both parliamentary and independent reports.

In this day and age? I somehow doubt it.

 

I'd be interested in having a read though, do post them.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, MattP said:

In this day and age? I somehow doubt it.

 

I'd be interested in having a read though, do post them.

Easiest thing to find is the parliamentary report from 2 years ago. It has a focus on labour because of the reports around labour but has the following section. It actually doesn't back up my point but doors talk about there being no evidence labour is worse than other parties and details issues elsewhere and the responses of other parties. This isn't just a Labour issue.

 

Other political activity

120.Despite significant press and public attention on the Labour Party, and a number of revelations regarding inappropriate social media content, there exists no reliable, empirical evidence to support the notion that there is a higher prevalence of antisemitic attitudes within the Labour Party than any other political party. We are unaware whether efforts to identify antisemitic social media content within the Labour Party were applied equally to members and activists from other political parties, and we are not aware of any polls exploring antisemitic attitudes among political party members, either within or outside the Labour Party. The current impression of a heightened prevalence of antisemitism within in the Labour Party is clearly a serious problem, but we would wish to emphasise that this is also a challenge for other parties.

121.A representative YouGov poll carried out in May 2016 found that Labour voters were no more likely than voters from other parties to express antisemitic attitudes, with UKIP voters demonstrating the highest levels of antisemitism.179 As outlined earlier in this report, a survey of British Jewish people found that almost half of respondents felt that the Green Party is too tolerant of antisemitism (compared with 87% in relation to the Labour Party), 43% think the same of UKIP, 40% of the SNP, and over a third in relation to the Liberal Democrats.180

122.Other political parties have not been immune to accusations of antisemitism, albeit apparently with a smaller number of reported incidents, and with a lower profile. In April 2015, a Conservative candidate for Derby Council was expelled from her Party after she said she would never support “the Jew” Ed Miliband.181 In August 2014, the University College London (UCL) Union investigated the university’s Conservative Society after it was accused of creating a “toxic environment”, with one member reported to have said “Jews own everything, we all know it’s true. I wish I was Jewish, but my nose isn’t long enough”. Media reports suggest that the incident was never investigated by the Conservative Party,182 but it is unclear whether it was ever referred to the Party, and questions have subsequently been raised about the veracity of the complaint.

123.A former Conservative Councillor who defected to the Liberal Democrats after losing his seat, Matthew Gordon Banks, was suspended from his new Party in September after writing on Twitter that “[Tim] Farron’s leadership campaign was organised and funded by London Jews”, adding in a second tweet: “I tried to work with them. Very difficult.”183 The former Liberal Democrat MP David Ward has been accused of antisemitism on several occasions. He was suspended from his Party after accusing “the Jews” of committing atrocities in Palestine,184 and later sent the following tweet: “The big question is–if I lived in #Gaza would I fire a rocket?–probably yes”.185 Baroness Tonge, who now sits in the House of Lords as an independent Liberal Democrat, resigned the Party whip in 2012 after refusing to apologise for saying that “Israel is not going to be there forever”, and has recently attracted fresh criticism for sharing an article that suggested that “Jewish power” was targeting the Labour Party.186 At this year’s autumn conference, the Liberal Democrat Friends of Palestine group was asked to remove Facebook posts that quoted the statement: “The Jews as victim. Always the Jews, only the Jews.” SNP MSP Sandra White apologised “unreservedly” in November 2015 after tweeting an antisemitic image of six piglets (representing the UK and others) suckling at a sow with the word “Rothschild” and the Star of David on it.187 Incidents involving other forms of racism, including Islamophobia, have also affected a number of mainstream parties.

124.Soon after this inquiry was announced, we invited the then Prime Minister, David Cameron, to give oral evidence as Leader of the Conservative Party. On the date in June when he was scheduled to attend, the events leading up to his resignation had been set in motion, and he wrote to the then Committee Chair apologising and stating that he was unable to attend. Rt Hon Patrick McLoughlin MP, the newly-appointed Chairman of the Conservative Party, provided a detailed written submission in early August, and indicated that he would have been happy to give further oral evidence to us.188 We later invited the new Prime Minister on several occasions to give evidence to us in October, but received no formal response until the morning of the scheduled evidence session, when Sir Eric Pickles MP, the UK Special Envoy for Post-Holocaust Issues and former Party Chairman, was nominated to attend as a representative of the Conservative Party.

125.It is very disappointing that the Conservative Party procrastinated for so long, and that both the Leader and Chairman of the Party declined to give evidence on this vital issue, but we are very grateful to Sir Eric for stepping in at the last minute, and value his extensive experience in these matters. He told us that the Conservative Party had had problems (with racism) in the late 1960s, but had learned lessons from this and recognised that it “must have a no tolerance policy with regard to any form of racism”.189 When challenged about the incident at UCL, of which he was unaware, he apologised and said that, on the face of it, the Party should have investigated it; although, as previously mentioned, there is some dispute over the veracity of the complaint itself. Sir Eric denied that he had intended to suggest in his evidence that the Conservative Party was alone in having no ongoing problems with antisemitism among its members, stating that antisemitism is “one of the oldest, most nasty, most evil of all the sins”; that it “comes back”; and that “to suggest for a millisecond that I believe that the Conservative party is free of antisemitism would be a complete bastardisation of what I have just said”.190

126.Tim Farron MP, Leader of the Liberal Democrats, gave evidence to us on the same day, and told us that his Party could learn “plenty of lessons” from the manner in which it had dealt with Cllr David Ward, stating that it took “too long” for the Whip to be withdrawn. When challenged on Cllr Ward’s ongoing membership of the Liberal Democrats, he said that “when we are looking at matters of discipline”, it is important to “allow a disciplinary process to take place”. He denied that Cllr Ward was a “repeat offender” and said that it was “very tricky” to judge whether an individual has been antisemitic or “just provocative and offensive”. Similarly, he said that he was offended by Baroness Tonge’s remarks (calling for British Jewish people to stop Israel from destroying the Middle East), but that “it is right that those issues are dealt with through a full disciplinary process”. Mr Farron told us that he has formally launched a new inquiry into the Party’s disciplinary procedures, led by Lord Ken Macdonald, the former Director of Public Prosecutions.191

127.We also heard evidence from Angus Robertson MP, Leader of the SNP in Westminster, on 14 June. Mr Robertson told us that there have been examples of antisemitism “in all political parties, to a degree”, and asserted that “we all have responsibility as political leaders and democratic politicians to be absolutely unequivocal in our condemnation of antisemitism”.192 In reference to Sandra White’s tweet, he said there was “no prevarication” about the fact that it was “unacceptable”, and referred to correspondence that took place between the First Minister and the Scottish Council of Jewish Communities. When asked what he would have done if Ken Livingstone was an SNP politician, Mr Robertson said that he would have sought for him to be “dismissed from the party for acting in a way that the SNP rule book calls ‘conduct inimical’”, adding that Mr Livingstone’s behaviour was “against the values, policies and approach of the SNP”.193

128.No party is immune to ‘bad apples’, and it would be naïve to assume that tackling antisemitism in the Labour Party would eliminate it from political discourse altogether. Antisemitism is a problem of such gravity that no party can afford to be complacent. It is an issue that should transcend party loyalties and inter-party conflict.

129.Other political parties must not assume that antisemitic political discourse is an issue affecting the Labour Partyalone. The Liberal Democrats in particular should pay heed tothe need to act swiftly and decisively to deal with antisemitism within their ranks. We were disappointed by the manner in which their Leader, Tim Farron, referred to disciplinary processes rather than explicitly condemning antisemitic remarks made by members of his Party, and we were surprised to learn that Cllr David Ward remains an elected representative of the Liberal Democrats, despite his repeated antisemitic comments. All of the main political parties should examine whether the reforms recommended in this reportcould be applied to their own processes for training anddisciplining their members and activists. Political leaders should also make themselves responsible for taking swift investigatory or disciplinary action when a party member is identified by Twitter as being a perpetrator of abuse.

130.The acts of governments abroad are no excuse for violence or abuse against people in the United Kingdom. We live in a democracy where people are free to criticise the British Government and foreign governments. But the actions of the Israeli Government provide no justification for abusingBritish Jews; just as the actions of the Saudi Arabian or Iranian governments provide no justification for abusing British Muslims.

131.History shows that antisemitism is a virus that is tooeasily spread, through subtly pernicious discourse, ignorance and collusion. Political leaders must lead by example, oppose racism and religious hate in all its forms, and promote an atmosphere of tolerance, inclusion and understanding, as befits the UK’s status as a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic and multi-religious society.

[Guest MattP]

That report is before all the Labour anti-semitism erupted, which isn't this day and age, plus there is nothing in there that suggest the right is more antisemitic. One part even goes on about the 1960's.

 

Epic fail.

 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, MattP said:

That report is before all the Labour anti-semitism erupted, which isn't this day and age, plus there is nothing in there that suggest the right is more antisemitic. One part even goes on about the 1960's.

 

Epic fail.

 

Did you even read what I wrote?

I made it clear I'd gone for the easiest option which didn't even back up my point. That's twice today you've not even bothered reading what you're commenting on.

'Epic fail' ffs.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

I think Labour clearly has the biggest problem at the moment. I am not aware of any MPs of any race/religion/creed being hounded out of the Conservative Party by mobs. 

[Buce]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

It's not exactly a huge surprise either, the Tories didn't hit 30% in London in 2014 and Miliband took 43% of the vote in the capital.

 

The demographics in London are perfect for Labour as well. Huge BME community, younger, gayer than the rest of the nation.

 

 

 

 

Wtf?

[Guest MattP]

27 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Wtf?

Higher LGBTAQITQGGTGQA community I meant.

 

That group is more left leaning.