Rogstanley Posted 4 May 2018 Posted 4 May 2018 3 minutes ago, Strokes said: The winter of discontent.... I thought the problem with Wilson and Callaghan was that they campaigned as left wing but ultimately delivered a right wing agenda? I don't really think that situation is comparable to the present day tbh and, if there are people who felt that government didn't serve them well, I wonder what they made if Thatcher. She basically just carried on the same attacks didn't she?
Guest Posted 4 May 2018 Posted 4 May 2018 31 minutes ago, Strokes said: The winter of discontent.... Which was strikes because the government refused to give the pay rises requested. In which way is that left wing largesse?
Guest Posted 4 May 2018 Posted 4 May 2018 31 minutes ago, Strokes said: That depends if the alternative is any better, stagnation is better than decline and the older generation don’t trust a left wing government. The older generation don't know what they're talking about. We haven't had a socialist government since at least the 40s.
Alf Bentley Posted 4 May 2018 Posted 4 May 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Strokes said: It also says that amongst the people who have seen very leftist government before, unanimously reject labour. 1 hour ago, Strokes said: The winter of discontent.... Are you seriously claiming that the Callaghan government was "very leftist"?!? I could understand someone seeing Corbyn as "very leftist" or having been put off Labour by the Foot/Benn leftist opposition years of the early 80s (if they're at least 50). I could also understand someone remembering Labour as having been economically incompetent in the Winter of Discontent....though they'd need to be at least 55-60 to really remember it. Even then, the 70s were a time of economic crisis in the UK due to structural problems, oil price shocks, entrenched industrial conflict etc. It was a near impossible time to be in govt - and Heath's Tories made as big a mess of it, 70-74. But the Winter of Discontent wasn't caused by "leftist" policies. Wilson/Callaghan were Labour moderates and the Winter of Discontent happened because they prioritised control of inflation and imposed pay caps on the unions. It would be a valid argument to slate the unions for short-sighted selfishness in striking for higher pay and causing the Winter of Discontent (I might well agree with you). You might also slate Callaghan for being too weak to control the economy or the unions, though if anything you'd have to say that applied even more to Heath's Tory Govt (rampant inflation, miners' strike leading to power cuts & 3-day week - and to Heath getting thrown out of office). Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent I thought you were younger than me, anyway - 35-40ish? Sorry if I've got that wrong. Where have you got such odd ideas about the Winter of Discontent being caused by "very leftist govt"? Very selfish unions, possibly (though a bit simplistically)....Weak, incompetent govt is arguable....but not leftist govt. Wilson/Callaghan were fighting the Left in their own party, who only took over after Thatcher won in 1979. The equivalent would be for me to dismiss any thought of voting Tory on the grounds that Harold MacMillan was a fascist! I get people seeing Corbyn or Foot/Benn as too left-wing, but really the only Labour Govt that could be described as "very leftist" would be the Attlee Govt... Edited 4 May 2018 by Alf Bentley 2
Guest Posted 4 May 2018 Posted 4 May 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Are you seriously claiming that the Callaghan government was "very leftist"?!? I could understand someone seeing Corbyn as "very leftist" or having been put off Labour by the Foot/Benn leftist opposition years of the early 80s (if they're at least 50). I could also understand someone remembering Labour as having been economically incompetent in the Winter of Discontent....though they'd need to be at least 55-60 to really remember it. Even then, the 70s were a time of economic crisis in the UK due to structural problems, oil price shocks, entrenched industrial conflict etc. It was a near impossible time to be in govt - and Heath's Tories made as big a mess of it, 70-74. But the Winter of Discontent wasn't caused by "leftist" policies. Wilson/Callaghan were Labour moderates and the Winter of Discontent happened because they prioritised control of inflation and imposed pay caps on the unions. It would be a valid argument to slate the unions for short-sighted selfishness in striking for higher pay and causing the Winter of Discontent (I might well agree with you). You might also slate Callaghan for being too weak to control the economy or the unions, though if anything you'd have to say that applied even more to Heath's Tory Govt (rampant inflation, miners' strike leading to power cuts & 3-day week - and to Heath getting thrown out of office). Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent I thought you were younger than me, anyway - 35-40ish? Sorry if I've got that wrong. Where have you got such odd ideas about the Winter of Discontent being caused by "very leftist govt"? Very selfish unions, possibly (though a bit simplistically)....Weak, incompetent govt is arguable....but not leftist govt. Wilson/Callaghan were fighting the Left in their own party, who only took over after Thatcher won in 1979. The equivalent would be for me to dismiss any thought of voting Tory on the grounds that Harold MacMillan was a fascist! I get people seeing Corbyn or Foot/Benn as too left-wing, but really the only Labour Govt that could be described as "very leftist" would be the Attlee Govt... This is what I find odd. I think if you talk to many, many people there's a consensus that a left wing labour government nigh on destroyed the country in the 70s. I'm too young to have experienced it but I assumed this to be the case myself and have read up on the period a fair bit to understand what happened. The picture I now have is VERY different to the one I had before. I can only assume that the Thatcher government used their power to put false blame on labour in the way osborne did upon taking over the Treasury. And it obviously worked brilliantly. I genuinely believe this false picture is almost unanimously accepted as true. Edited 4 May 2018 by Guest
Guest Posted 4 May 2018 Posted 4 May 2018 This is the sort of thing that has to change - low rent bullsh*t outsourcing
Alf Bentley Posted 4 May 2018 Posted 4 May 2018 (edited) 47 minutes ago, toddybad said: This is what I find odd. I think if you talk to many, many people there's a consensus that a left wing labour government nigh on destroyed the country on the 70s. I'm too young to have experienced it but I assumed this to be the case myself and have read up on the period a fair bit to understand what happened. The picture I now have is VERY different to the one I had before. I can only assume that the Thatcher government used their power to put false blame on labour in the way osborne did upon taking over the Treasury. And it obviously worked brilliantly. I genuinely believe this false picture is almost unanimously accepted as true. I assume 2 bits of successful right-wing propaganda are getting mixed up in people's minds: 1) "You can't trust Labour because of left-wing extremists like Foot/Benn" (dating from the early 80s opposition years)...maybe mixed with the idea of "left-wing unions" in the Winter of Discontent (though they were more selfish than leftist) 2) "You can't trust Labour because they were too weak/incompetent to control the economy or the unions during the Winter of Discontent/1970s" (1) and/or (2) are credible right-wing arguments, but arguing that the 1970s Labour Govt was "very leftist" is just bollocks on a factual level. If they'd been very leftist they'd have presumably capitulated to the unions, not resisted them - leading to the strikes of the Winter of Discontent. The economic incompetence argument can be made, but even that is overstated: in the 70s, the UK was an economic mess whoever was in power and no govt dealt with it - until Thatcher's social brutalist regime (though that's a different argument). Economic problems in the 70s were largely down to structural or external factors, anyway: slowdown in growth after post-war reconstruction boom, post-imperial adjustment, oil crises, industrial relations based on class conflict on both sides, the short-termist nature of British capitalism etc. I'm just about old enough (55) to remember the Winter of Discontent, which happened when I was about 16. I have even vaguer memories of Heath's 3-day week, power cuts etc (I'd have been about 12). People a bit older than me will have stronger memories, but I struggle to see how anyone much younger than, say 52-53 could have strong memories of the era.... As I recall, the blame that people attached to the Labour Govt at the time (main reason why Thatcher won in 1979) was its failure to control the unions or price inflation (though Heath had done neither, either). The unions were a much more powerful player in economic policy back then, whichever govt was in power (regular "beer and sandwiches" negotiations in Downing Street). Labour had been seen as better capable of managing them....but they lost that "credit" through the Winter of Discontent, and the electorate blamed them for the Winter of Discontent chaos, inflation and 1m unemployed (though Thatcher increased that to 3-4m!). I don't remember Callaghan/Wilson/Healey being slated as "leftists" at the time, even by the Tories - weakness/incompetence was the charge. But since then, accusations of incompetence in govt have somehow been merged with accusations of "left-wing extremism" made against Foot/Benn in opposition (79-83) and against Hard Left councils/NUM in the mid-80s......2 credible, if very old, right-wing arguments blended into 1 that is just bollocks factually. Edited 4 May 2018 by Alf Bentley
Guest Posted 4 May 2018 Posted 4 May 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: I assume 2 bits of successful right-wing propaganda are getting mixed up in people's minds: 1) "You can't trust Labour because of left-wing extremists like Foot/Benn" (dating from the early 80s opposition years)...maybe mixed with the idea of "left-wing unions" in the Winter of Discontent (though they were more selfish than leftist) 2) "You can't trust Labour because they were too weak/incompetent to control the economy or the unions during the Winter of Discontent/1970s" (1) and/or (2) are credible right-wing arguments, but arguing that the 1970s Labour Govt was "very leftist" is just bollocks on a factual level. If they'd been very leftist they'd have presumably capitulated to the unions, not resisted them - leading to the strikes of the Winter of Discontent. The economic incompetence argument can be made, but even that is overstated: in the 70s, the UK was an economic mess whoever was in power and no govt dealt with it - until Thatcher's social brutalist regime (though that's a different argument). Economic problems in the 70s were largely down to structural or external factors, anyway: slowdown in growth after post-war reconstruction boom, post-imperial adjustment, oil crises, industrial relations based on class conflict on both sides, the short-termist nature of British capitalism etc. I'm just about old enough (55) to remember the Winter of Discontent, which happened when I was about 16. I have even vaguer memories of Heath's 3-day week, power cuts etc (I'd have been about 12). People a bit older than me will have stronger memories, but I struggle to see how anyone much younger than, say 52-53 could have strong memories of the era.... As I recall, the blame that people attached to the Labour Govt at the time (main reason why Thatcher won in 1979) was its failure to control the unions or price inflation (though Heath had done neither, either). The unions were a much more powerful player in economic policy back then, whichever govt was in power (regular "beer and sandwiches" negotiations in Downing Street). Labour had been seen as better capable of managing them....but they lost that "credit" through the Winter of Discontent, and the electorate blamed them for the Winter of Discontent chaos, inflation and 1m unemployed (though Thatcher increased that to 3-4m!). I don't remember Callaghan/Wilson/Healey being slated as "leftists" at the time, even by the Tories - weakness/incompetence was the charge. But since then, accusations of incompetence in govt have somehow been merged with accusations of "left-wing extremism" made against Foot/Benn in opposition (79-83) and against Hard Left councils/NUM in the mid-80s......2 credible, if very old, right-wing arguments blended into 1 that is just bollocks factually. And here's the thing - we're having a sensible and relatively accurate discussion about what actually happened and where are all our tame right wingers? They don't want to hear this. Imo believing that the 70s were a leftist catastrophe is the thing holding together support for brutal tory governments. Why else would you accept social decline? Edited 4 May 2018 by Guest
Rogstanley Posted 5 May 2018 Posted 5 May 2018 (edited) Thanks @Alf Bentley, I was hoping you’d weigh in with some political history. So in order for @Strokes‘s argument about older voters having seen a “very leftist” government in power before, they’d have to be referring to Attlee as far back as 1945-1951? Someone who was 30 when Attlee came to power would today be 103 years old. We’re not talking large numbers of people here, are we. Argument disproven, imho. Edited 5 May 2018 by Rogstanley
Izzy Posted 5 May 2018 Posted 5 May 2018 7 hours ago, toddybad said: And here's the thing - we're having a sensible and relatively accurate discussion about what actually happened and where are all our tame right wingers? They're probably all sound asleep in bed seeing as you posted this at half past midnight
Guest Posted 5 May 2018 Posted 5 May 2018 6 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said: They're probably all sound asleep in bed seeing as you posted this at half past midnight Probably lazing back amongst their riches whilst we left wingers go day and night
Innovindil Posted 5 May 2018 Posted 5 May 2018 8 hours ago, toddybad said: And here's the thing - we're having a sensible and relatively accurate discussion about what actually happened and where are all our tame right wingers? They don't want to hear this. Imo believing that the 70s were a leftist catastrophe is the thing holding together support for brutal tory governments. Why else would you accept social decline? I'm here, I've heard it and I don't particularly give a damn. My gripe with current Labour has nothing to do with a Labour government that existed before I was born tbh.
Dr The Singh Posted 5 May 2018 Posted 5 May 2018 10 hours ago, Alf Bentley said: I assume 2 bits of successful right-wing propaganda are getting mixed up in people's minds: 1) "You can't trust Labour because of left-wing extremists like Foot/Benn" (dating from the early 80s opposition years)...maybe mixed with the idea of "left-wing unions" in the Winter of Discontent (though they were more selfish than leftist) 2) "You can't trust Labour because they were too weak/incompetent to control the economy or the unions during the Winter of Discontent/1970s" (1) and/or (2) are credible right-wing arguments, but arguing that the 1970s Labour Govt was "very leftist" is just bollocks on a factual level. If they'd been very leftist they'd have presumably capitulated to the unions, not resisted them - leading to the strikes of the Winter of Discontent. The economic incompetence argument can be made, but even that is overstated: in the 70s, the UK was an economic mess whoever was in power and no govt dealt with it - until Thatcher's social brutalist regime (though that's a different argument). Economic problems in the 70s were largely down to structural or external factors, anyway: slowdown in growth after post-war reconstruction boom, post-imperial adjustment, oil crises, industrial relations based on class conflict on both sides, the short-termist nature of British capitalism etc. I'm just about old enough (55) to remember the Winter of Discontent, which happened when I was about 16. I have even vaguer memories of Heath's 3-day week, power cuts etc (I'd have been about 12). People a bit older than me will have stronger memories, but I struggle to see how anyone much younger than, say 52-53 could have strong memories of the era.... As I recall, the blame that people attached to the Labour Govt at the time (main reason why Thatcher won in 1979) was its failure to control the unions or price inflation (though Heath had done neither, either). The unions were a much more powerful player in economic policy back then, whichever govt was in power (regular "beer and sandwiches" negotiations in Downing Street). Labour had been seen as better capable of managing them....but they lost that "credit" through the Winter of Discontent, and the electorate blamed them for the Winter of Discontent chaos, inflation and 1m unemployed (though Thatcher increased that to 3-4m!). I don't remember Callaghan/Wilson/Healey being slated as "leftists" at the time, even by the Tories - weakness/incompetence was the charge. But since then, accusations of incompetence in govt have somehow been merged with accusations of "left-wing extremism" made against Foot/Benn in opposition (79-83) and against Hard Left councils/NUM in the mid-80s......2 credible, if very old, right-wing arguments blended into 1 that is just bollocks factually. Can you summarise, some people are too lazy
Alf Bentley Posted 5 May 2018 Posted 5 May 2018 2 hours ago, Dr The Singh said: Can you summarise, some people are too lazy Zzzzzzzzzzzzz..... Sorry, mate. Having a doze, then going to football.
BlueSi13 Posted 5 May 2018 Posted 5 May 2018 20 hours ago, Rogstanley said: Lol bowling shane Labour beats Tory all the way up to age 49 and the Tories don't get a majority in any age group below 60, after which you are in decidely old codger territory. No amount of spin will change the fact that people of working age democratically expressed their desire to not have a Tory government. All this crap you peddle about the Tories being the party of working people is quite evidently not bought into by the working electorate. You can spin the results absolutely any way you like to fit whatever agenda it is your pushing. But the most important statistic is that the COUNTRY rejected Labour by over 50 seats Theresa May (who apparently had an absolute horror show) got a percentage share of the vote that has only been bested in recent times by Tony Blair in 1997 and Margaret Thatcher in 1983
Guest Posted 5 May 2018 Posted 5 May 2018 Worst healthcare staffing levels in the western world Shock figures from top thinktank reveal extent of NHS crisis https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/05/nhs-lowest-level-doctors-nurses-beds-western-world?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
Alf Bentley Posted 6 May 2018 Posted 6 May 2018 A curious leak: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/04/irish-border-backup-plan-suggests-checks-ports-airports-brexit "A backup plan to impose border checks on trade between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK at ports and airports to avoid a hard border with the Republic of Ireland after Brexit has been drafted by senior civil servants. Despite the DUP angrily rejecting any suggestion of a border “in the Irish Sea”, a leaked paper reveals that officials have been working on a blueprint “to be deployed as necessary in the negotiation process”. I wonder who took the initiative to produce such a paper: govt politicians or civil servants? I assume the EU would be open to this suggestion, which could open the way to full negotiation of a post-Brexit trade agreement. The DUP would presumably oppose it (or might a quick bung & the 'green channel for NI/GB' concept make it acceptable....an orange channel might be better ). Could put opposition parties in an awkward position on multiple levels: Accept a negotiated Hard Brexit with no hard Irish border? Take chance to bring down govt if DUP opposes? SNP & Plaid would oppose, presumably.
Sharpe's Fox Posted 6 May 2018 Posted 6 May 2018 Very worrying how many leaks are coming out of government departments these days. Makes me really think that these civil servants deeply ingrained in the fabric of the state will bring down any elected government they don’t like and that seriously makes me worry for the future of a leftist government with a transformational programme. Best thing that could be done imo is to move the Treasury and Home Office at least out of London. 1
Rogstanley Posted 6 May 2018 Posted 6 May 2018 Of course we know from Labour's "run on the pound" backup plan that if a party makes a back up plan that means they are 100% certain that the event is going to take place, so looks like we have our border solution.
Strokes Posted 6 May 2018 Posted 6 May 2018 On 05/05/2018 at 06:20, Rogstanley said: Thanks @Alf Bentley, I was hoping you’d weigh in with some political history. So in order for @Strokes‘s argument about older voters having seen a “very leftist” government in power before, they’d have to be referring to Attlee as far back as 1945-1951? Someone who was 30 when Attlee came to power would today be 103 years old. We’re not talking large numbers of people here, are we. Argument disproven, imho. It was worth it just get you to tag properly, well done mate I knew you would get there eventually. Oh it’s not disproven, the very leftist part is clearly a matter of opinion. The left do what the left do best and disown any responsibility of anything that goes wrong during their tenure. Tory lite, 74-79 right wing labour. So now you want us to go back in time 70 years before you take any responsibility.
Rogstanley Posted 6 May 2018 Posted 6 May 2018 1 minute ago, Strokes said: It was worth it just get you to tag properly, well done mate I knew you would get there eventually. Oh it’s not disproven, the very leftist part is clearly a matter of opinion. The left do what the left do best and disown any responsibility of anything that goes wrong during their tenure. Tory lite, 74-79 right wing labour. So now you want us to go back in time 70 years before you take any responsibility. It's not about taking responsibility at all, it's about your claim that older voters have seen a "very leftist" government before and that's why they don't vote Labour. Personally I think it has been categorically proven that in order to have been a fully gown adult at the time of the last "very leftist" government in the UK you'd need to be over 100 years old. Obviously there are a few such people around, but even if they all refuse to vote Labour on that basis it isn't making a significant difference. So it's back to square one for you I'm afraid. 1
Alf Bentley Posted 6 May 2018 Posted 6 May 2018 1 hour ago, Strokes said: Oh it’s not disproven, the very leftist part is clearly a matter of opinion. The left do what the left do best and disown any responsibility of anything that goes wrong during their tenure. Tory lite, 74-79 right wing labour. So now you want us to go back in time 70 years before you take any responsibility. It's not a case of disowning responsibility. It's a fact that there were major economic problems under the 74-79 Labour Govt (and the 70-74 Tory Govt). It's a fact that the country descended into chaos under Labour during the 78-79 Winter of Discontent - and that the electorate blamed Labour for this and threw them out of office. It's also a fact that the immediate cause of the Winter of Discontent was the Labour Govt prioritising inflation and restricting pay rises, the unions staging widespread strikes in opposition and the Govt being unable to resolve this. It's then a matter of opinion who is to blame for that. It's certainly an arguable opinion to blame the Labour Govt for handling it inadequately. Alternatively, many would blame the irresponsibility of the unions. Others would cite long-term structural factors in our economy, society and industrial relations (Thatcher presumably held this view as she made it a priority to reduce union power in govt). What is not a reasonable opinion is to blame "leftist govt". Some claims are a matter of opinion: - Liverpool will beat Real Madrid - Austerity politics is necessary/unnecessary - The Winter of Discontent was the fault of the Labour Govt (or the unions, or long-term structural factors) Some claims fly in the face of the evidence to such an extent that no reasonable person would argue them: - Coalville Town would beat Real Madrid - The earth is flat - Strokes is not a human LCFC fan, he is a giant chocolate eclair floating on the surface of the planet Venus - The Winter of Discontent was caused by the "very leftist" policies of the Labour Govt. I honestly think that 2 bits of right-wing propaganda are being conflated and confused here. Labour in Govt in the late 70s was widely criticised for incompetence. Labour in Opposition in the early 80s was widely criticised for being too left-wing. Reasonable cases can be made for and against those criticisms. But if you're going to condemn Callaghan for being "very leftist", you should also condemn the Far Right policies of Major and Cameron.
Izzy Posted 6 May 2018 Posted 6 May 2018 23 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: - Strokes is not a human LCFC fan, he is a giant chocolate eclair floating on the surface of the planet Venus This. Finally the truth in a thread full of lies. 4
Guest Posted 6 May 2018 Posted 6 May 2018 3 hours ago, Strokes said: It was worth it just get you to tag properly, well done mate I knew you would get there eventually. Oh it’s not disproven, the very leftist part is clearly a matter of opinion. The left do what the left do best and disown any responsibility of anything that goes wrong during their tenure. Tory lite, 74-79 right wing labour. So now you want us to go back in time 70 years before you take any responsibility. What is it you think they're responsible for? You mentioned the winter of discontent which was a government not bowing to the trade unions. Why do you think they went on strike?
Rincewind Posted 6 May 2018 Posted 6 May 2018 A study that shows how the DWP are sending misleading letters preventing ESA clainants receiving the help they are entitled to. The letter is on public view at Parliament so the report is not 'made up' as some will claim. The ones that discovered it are lawyers representing a client awaiting appeal. His GP told him he could not issue a 'Fit note' which replaces a sick note for those on ESA. This is false. Read the whole report before dismissing it and take a look at who the group consists of and the work that they do. It isunfortunate that the press and media have been preoccupied at the news of a sprog appearing to report on this. https://www.z2k.org/blog/dwp-systematically-spreads-misinformation-to-doctors-about-their-patients-disability-benefits It also begs the question if those on JSA and ESA who temporally have benifits removed do they count as unemployed if not are the fall in unemployment figures misleading? The responses to this post iI will get s the reason I do not paticipate in this thread much. But if I see injustice I say.
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