Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Alf Bentley]

19 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I don’t get how you can say it’s undemocratic, Parliament have voted this path democratically, they have allowed it to be delegated due to the nature of it.

We voted for our MPs to represent us. They may have just voted to severely limit the extent to which they can represent us on the most important decision this nation has faced for 70 years, one that will affect all of us - and younger generations - for several decades. Alternatively, they may have just placed their ability to represent us properly on this issue in the hands of 1 man (John Bercow).

 

If the EU know we cannot leave with no deal, they have no incentive to offer us anything to stay.

How could the EU know that we could not leave with no deal? With a meaningful vote, parliament itself could have ordered the govt to leave with no deal, if it wanted. No deal is agreed until it is approved by parliament. All that the defeat of this amendment may have done is to limit parliament's options to (a) accepting whatever is negotiated (which you may hate, not just me); or (b) leaving with no deal, plunging the nation into crisis.....though it may not have done that; it may have just handed discretion over parliament's powers to Bercow.

 

The EU would offer us all we already get if we chose to stay. It would offer us a fair amount of that if we chose a Soft Brexit, but very little if we chose an arm's-length relationship. I think you're deluding yourself if you believe that the EU will be pressurised into making us generous offers by threats that we'll walk away. The EU has about 6 times more people than us, is about 5 times richer than us and is in a vulnerable position due to the rise of Euroscepticism, nationalism & populism on the continent. It couldn't afford to cut generous deals with a country leaving, even if it wanted to (and it doesn't) - and is strong enough to call the UK's bluff on any such threats and take the hit from a No Deal Brexit, a hit much smaller than the hit the UK would take. Have you not noticed that at every stage so far, the UK has capitulated (or fudged) and the EU has made very few concessions?

 

The people voted for it, the vote is meaningful and no different to any other vote on governmental matters.

Not sure what you're on about here. The people voted for Brexit and they voted for their MPs. They didn't vote for any particular sort of Brexit - and they didn't vote for their MPs to limit their own ability to represent us.

IF MPs are unable to amend the legislation when they vote at the end of the divorce negotiations, that WILL be different to most legislation, which CAN be amended. It will NOT really be meaningful if it is a choice between accepting whatever has been negotiated or bombing out with no deal

 

19 minutes ago, Strokes said:

No deal is better than a bad deal and it is what was voted for. 

No deal would create an unprecedented crisis in this country, one that risks the future of everyone in this country - and absolutely nobody has voted for no deal, even if a few people like you think it would be a great idea.

I can see the disastrous consequences of "no deal" causing a backlash, though against who I don't know - it should be against all those who promoted or failed to prevent such a disastrous outcome.

 

Today is a victory for democracy and to attempt to paint as the opposite is shameful imo.

I'm not sure what today is, as there are so many other uncertainties. It may turn out to be a good day for the rebels if Bercow allows the legislation to be amended when the time comes (he's a Tory but has a reputation for supporting the back benches - and for being a massive, erratic egotist!). It may turn out to be a bad day for Hard Brexit folk like you if May/Davis come back with what you'd see as a Soft Brexit cop-out deal, which then cannot be amended due to today's vote. It'll almost certainly be a day that has no impact on EU negotiating strategies. If today's vote does mean that MPs are presented with a "take it or leave it" choice on any deal, it will have been an utterly shameful day for our democracy, one when our democratically-elected MPs unilaterally binned their opportunity to represent their constituents properly on the most critical issue for decades......but that shame will pale into nothingness compared to the potential devastation caused to our country, all our lives and all our children's lives by a chaotic No Deal Brexit.

 

 

[Guest]

The idea that no deal was voted for is nonsense. The only election where this was offered saw no overall majority and the largest party that offered this fell well short of a majority of voters.

 

If this report is true though Strokes might not be quite as happy about last night's vote...lol 

 

May risks row with Brexiters over plan for single market for goods

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/21/may-risks-row-with-brexiters-over-plan-for-single-market-for-goods?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

Edited 21 June 2018 by Guest

[Guest MattP]

23 minutes ago, toddybad said:

The idea that no deal was voted for is nonsense. The only election where this was offered saw no overall majority and the largest party that offered this fell well short of a majority of voters.

 

Where on earth have you pulled this piece of fiction from? The Tories weren't offering "no deal" at all.

They were offering a Brexit that took us out of the single market and the customs union, as were Labour given their manifesto said freedom of movement had to end.

 

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Where on earth have you pulled this piece of fiction from? The Tories weren't offering "no deal" at all.

They were offering a Brexit that took us out of the single market and the customs union, as were Labour given their manifesto said freedom of movement had to end.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Strokes said:

I don’t get how you can say it’s undemocratic, Parliament have voted this path democratically, they have allowed it to be delegated due to the nature of it. If the EU know we cannot leave with no deal, they have no incentive to offer us anything to stay. The people voted for it, the vote is meaningful and no different to any other vote on governmental matters.

No deal is better than a bad deal and it is what was voted for. 

Today is a victory for democracy and to attempt to paint as the opposite is shameful imo.

 

 

Perhaps if you read all contributions you'd have known the answer Matt. I was responding to Strokes' point above. No deal was only ever discussed by the Tories and the Tories certainly didn't win a majority of votes.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

Perhaps if you read all contributions you'd have known the answer Matt. I was responding to Strokes' point above. No deal was only ever discussed by the Tories and the Tories certainly didn't win a majority of votes.

I read your quote Toddy which in it's exact words was " The only election where this was offered saw no overall majority and the largest party that offered this fell well short of a majority of voters"

That's clearly complete nonsense, nothing in the Conservative manifesto at all offered "no deal".

[Guest Kopfkino]

Median household income grew faster in the 5 years to 2017 than the supposed wonder years under Blair. And ofc top to bottom inequality is down.

 

[Strokes]

46 minutes ago, toddybad said:

The idea that no deal was voted for is nonsense. The only election where this was offered saw no overall majority and the largest party that offered this fell well short of a majority of voters.

 

If this report is true though Strokes might not be quite as happy about last night's vote...lol 

I judge my happiness by your misery. I’m pretty chipper at the minute lol.

 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, MattP said:

I read your quote Toddy which in it's exact words was " The only election where this was offered saw no overall majority and the largest party that offered this fell well short of a majority of voters"

That's clearly complete nonsense, nothing in the Conservative manifesto at all offered "no deal".

Hey everybody, Mr Semantics just won the Alphabet Olympics

 

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

I judge my happiness by your misery. I’m pretty chipper at the minute lol.

 

 

That'd be the Tory in you...

[Donut]

Brexiteers: every time your point of view is disproved, shift the goal posts and pretend you voted for something else.

 

The idea parliament cant do anything in the event of no deal is a good thing?

 

This doesn't represent in any way the 48% of people who wanted to remain, nor anyone on the leave side who voted with any intention to follow a Norway model, or have any association with the customs union and single market after brexit.

 

Assuming over 2% of people wanted something other than hard brexit (TWO PERCENT) then the "will of the people" which means f all anyway, that has been ignored.

[Donut]

And the funniest thing is, its the three little stooges giving each other rep points and patting themselves on the back in every post.

 

[Donut]

17 hours ago, MattP said:

Pretty much nail on head.

 

Very weird some remainers assumed we voted to leave the EU to take back control just so we could then give control back to them.

 

This trade of thought is as weird as the "no one voted to be poorer" line.

 

No one did.

 

No one except a shifty minority of people like you, not even you did, you didn't deliberately vote to make yourself worse off, youre just saying that knowing you will be worse off as if to make yourself look more intelligent than those who didn't think they would be.

 

People in manual labour jobs getting paid next to nothing didn't knowingly vote to make themselves even more worse off, and if they did theyre mental.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Donut said:

No one did.

 

No one except a shifty minority of people like you, not even you did, you didn't deliberately vote to make yourself worse off, youre just saying that knowing you will be worse off as if to make yourself look more intelligent than those who didn't think they would be.

 

People in manual labour jobs getting paid next to nothing didn't knowingly vote to make themselves even more worse off, and if they did theyre mental.

Particularly given the fact people mention migrants undercutting local workers as a reason for voting out. 

 

The Brexiters amongst us are a weird bunch who appear to be lying to themselves as much as to the rest of us.

[Webbo]

18 minutes ago, Donut said:

And the funniest thing is, its the three little stooges giving each other rep points and patting themselves on the back in every post.

 

Oh look, guess who's given you a rep point.    

[Donut]

They all lie, all twist words, all pretend things they didn't vote for, all claim they knew that all along by telepathy with each other because no one talked about it....

 

Pre referendum the talk is about money for the NHS, trade deals being made all around the world, owning our fishing waters......what part of that tallies with getting poorer?

 

Now you've got a situation where we are threatening "no deal" as a negotiating position with the EU. What a load of tosh that is.

 

If me and you are trying to make a deal over something, and we don't agree a deal that works for both of us, we both revert back to our default positions. Buying a house, if I try and buy a house and I cant get what I want or its too expensive, I don't crash out and become homeless, I go back to my default position of having my existing house and not being worse off.

 

Now we have a situation where its good that our choices are deals that range from inferior, to national disaster, and parliament cant do anything about it.

 

That's definitely taking back control that is.....sending people over a cliff while they're powerless to do anything.

 

And this "will of the people thing" this position is at most 52%.... the will of 52% who voted that is......assuming every single one of them agrees with this position (ignores the will of the 48% whod like some mitigation of the damage, those who didn't vote, and those too young to vote though doesn't it).

 

People have been fed an idea for decades that the EU is a dictatorship acting against our interests by shit newspapers and gullible people have fallen for it hook line and sinker without having a clue.

 

 

[Donut]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

Oh look, guess who's given you a rep point.    

We will get a "you lost get over it" at some point today, I can sense it already

Edited 21 June 2018 by Donut

[Webbo]

20 minutes ago, Donut said:

Brexiteers: every time your point of view is disproved, shift the goal posts and pretend you voted for something else.

 

The idea parliament cant do anything in the event of no deal is a good thing?

 

This doesn't represent in any way the 48% of people who wanted to remain, nor anyone on the leave side who voted with any intention to follow a Norway model, or have any association with the customs union and single market after brexit.

 

Assuming over 2% of people wanted something other than hard brexit (TWO PERCENT) then the "will of the people" which means f all anyway, that has been ignored.

What's been disproven?

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Donut said:

We will get a "you lost get over it" at some point today, I can sense it already

[Donut]

Just now, Webbo said:

What's been disproven?

 

The idea we couldn't control our borders, the idea the EU needed us more than we needed them, the whole concept of "taking back control", the idea it would be easy to maintain frictionless trade, irish border being easy to solve, the list goes on and on

 

[Alf Bentley]

23 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Median household income grew faster in the 5 years to 2017 than the supposed wonder years under Blair. And ofc top to bottom inequality is down.

 

 

A bit of context here....

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jun/20/middle-income-households-faring-better-than-top-or-bottom-since-the-crash

 

"However, the institute said in its annual report on UK living standards that the swelling ranks of pensioners on or near the middle income band had helped drive up the median average, offsetting those of working age who have suffered from falling real wages. Pensioners, many of them enjoying generous occupational pension payouts, have increasingly joined the ranks of middle income earners over the last decade. The state pension, safeguarded by the government’s triple lock, also increased steeply in the first years of the recovery, said the report, which is funded by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation anti-poverty charity. In contrast, once inflation is taken into account, wages remain 2% to 3% below where they were in 2007".

[Guest MattP]

18 minutes ago, Donut said:

And the funniest thing is, its the three little stooges giving each other rep points and patting themselves on the back in every post.

How is that any different to Toddy and Buce just repping you everytime you wander back on here?
 

14 minutes ago, Donut said:

No one did.

 

No one except a shifty minority of people like you, not even you did, you didn't deliberately vote to make yourself worse off, youre just saying that knowing you will be worse off as if to make yourself look more intelligent than those who didn't think they would be.

 

People in manual labour jobs getting paid next to nothing didn't knowingly vote to make themselves even more worse off, and if they did theyre mental.

Yet again here you come on here telling everyone and anyone how they voted (and you'll again run off as soon as someone shows why you are wrong again) and show you don't understand it all.
 

No one on your side of the argument has still managed to get it through their heads that this wasn't all about economics, you have to take yourself out of that mindset to understand why people voted leave, we were threatened with an immediate punishment budget from the chancellor, an immediate recession and 300,000 job losses in the aftermath of a vote to leave, yet still did it.

 

You know why we did? Because we knew it was bollocks. It's completely baffling to see left wingers who are supposed to be about making life easier for the poorest trying to force them to have to deal with outrageous tariffs on the goods they buy.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

A bit of context here....

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jun/20/middle-income-households-faring-better-than-top-or-bottom-since-the-crash

 

"However, the institute said in its annual report on UK living standards that the swelling ranks of pensioners on or near the middle income band had helped drive up the median average, offsetting those of working age who have suffered from falling real wages. Pensioners, many of them enjoying generous occupational pension payouts, have increasingly joined the ranks of middle income earners over the last decade. The state pension, safeguarded by the government’s triple lock, also increased steeply in the first years of the recovery, said the report, which is funded by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation anti-poverty charity. In contrast, once inflation is taken into account, wages remain 2% to 3% below where they were in 2007".

It's unlike Kopf to ignore the context when he's flying the blue flag.

[Webbo]

5 minutes ago, Donut said:

 

The idea we couldn't control our borders, the idea the EU needed us more than we needed them, the whole concept of "taking back control", the idea it would be easy to maintain frictionless trade, irish border being easy to solve, the list goes on and on

 

And that's been proven? Have we signed a deal then?

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

How is that any different to Toddy and Buce just repping you everytime you wander back on here?
 

Yet again here you come on here telling everyone and anyone how they voted (and you'll again run off as soon as someone shows why you are wrong again) and show you don't understand it all.
 

No one on your side of the argument has still managed to get it through their heads that this wasn't all about economics, you have to take yourself out of that mindset to understand why people voted leave, we were threatened with an immediate punishment budget from the chancellor, an immediate recession and 300,000 job losses in the aftermath of a vote to leave, yet still did it.

 

You know why we did? Because we knew it was bollocks. It's completely baffling to see left wingers who are supposed to be about making life easier for the poorest trying to force them to have to deal with outrageous tariffs on the goods they buy.

So to you it is about the economy then?

But you don't believe the warnings?

It reads that you're telling us it WAS about removing tariffs to make the poor better off.

And you KNEW the economic tale from the Treasury was bollocks - I'm not sure how that squares with leavers not caring if they turned out to be true (the high street is imploding and the former chairman of the city of London Corp yesterday confirmed city banks are already shipping jobs overseas)?

Nobody is able to say why every leaver voted. Just because you are a leaveR doesn't give you some special superpower to understand the will of the rest of the 52%. I guarantee if you look on the sun's website it was most definitely about immigration for their readers, for example. 

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

 

If this report is true though Strokes might not be quite as happy about last night's vote...lol 

 

May risks row with Brexiters over plan for single market for goods

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/21/may-risks-row-with-brexiters-over-plan-for-single-market-for-goods?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

 

 

But he's already told us that last night's vote was a victory for democracy.

 

So, if the govt agrees to stay in a single market for goods and to compromise on free movement, and parliament is unable to amend it, that will be a victory for democracy.

Likewise, if John Bercow says parliament can only agree something like this or have no deal, that will be a victory for democracy.

 

Some Brexiteers, drunk on their hatred of the EU and the Left, assume that a "take it or leave it" ultimatum to parliament will inevitably lead to Hard Brexit or No Deal Brexit.

It might actually make No Deal Brexit less likely and some form of Soft Brexit more likely. Are a majority of MPs really going to vote for No Deal if May negotiates something like this?

Too many of them know what a disaster No Deal would be, I think.

 

But maybe we should take this transfer of power from elected legislature to unelected executive further?

If Labour wins the next election, Corbyn could abolish parliament altogether and the govt could assume complete control without scrutiny - an even greater victory for democracy, I presume?