Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, MattP said:

Why did she stand on this Tory manifesto? She should just have stepped down. Just shouting personal insults and ranting about your own party upholding it's pledges is warped.

 

Her own association has had enough now anyway thankfully and she can go and join the Lib Dems before the next election.

 

If the Tories end up with no deal and an economic catastrophe on their watch they'll be out of power for a generation anyway.

 

Perhaps that's why the lib dem leadership and a number of Labour mps didn't vote last night.

Edited 17 July 2018 by Guest

[Guest MattP]

9 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

Careful, you're in danger of sounding like a Corbynista with their deselections.

 

It's important for the Conservatives to have the range of voices to hold the government to account.  Let's be honest, the opposition aren't.

Something has to give though, these people are actively shouting against party policy. 

 

It will up to their local association anyway.

 

7 minutes ago, toddybad said:

If the Tories end up with no deal and an economic catastrophe on their watch they'll be out of power for a generation anyway.

 

Perhaps that's why the lib dem leadership and a number of Labour mps didn't vote last night.

 

While the Labour opposition remains as it is the longest the Tories will be out is a few years, people don't vote for a government standing in a dole queue. 

 

Brexit might be a disaster but it will be nothing compared to the sort of economics McDonnell wants to impose on the nation, unlike independence, that's never worked anywhere. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Something has to give though, these people are actively shouting against party policy. 

 

It will up to their local association anyway.

 

While the Labour opposition remains as it is the longest the Tories will be out is a few years, people don't vote for a government standing in a dole queue. 

 

Brexit might be a disaster but it will be nothing compared to the sort of economics McDonnell wants to impose on the nation, unlike independence, that's never worked anywhere. 

Every election the Tories rail against the labour socialist manifesto. Every election. You've just bought into it like a sheep, the same as with Brexit. Leaving the EU will end the tory party if they get it wrong. 

[breadandcheese]

4 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Every election the Tories rail against the labour socialist manifesto. Every election. You've just bought into it like a sheep, the same as with Brexit. Leaving the EU will end the tory party if they get it wrong. 

Corbyn/McDonnell's economic plans will result in more capital flight from the economy than brexit will.

 

If you're an investor based in Singapore/Australia/America or wherever, you're not going to sit around with your money invested in the UK whilst industries are being nationalised. You can say that it's only one or two industries that are planned to be, but investors abroad, who don't have the time or inclination to understand the nuances of British politics, will see it through the prism of the UK public being quite mad, voting first for brexit, then for a nationalising socialist. I.e. time to get out the country as it goes bananas.

[Guest MattP]

22 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Every election the Tories rail against the labour socialist manifesto. Every election. You've just bought into it like a sheep, the same as with Brexit. Leaving the EU will end the tory party if they get it wrong. 

Yeah it's not like I've had a look at places where this has been implemented and seen the job loss, capital flight and destruction on business it has. Didn't do that at all.

 

Just a sheep.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, MattP said:

Yeah it's not like I've had a look at places where this has been implemented and seen the job loss, capital flight and destruction on business it has. Didn't do that at all.

 

Just a sheep.

Suddenly you're basing your decisions on evidence 

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

Corbyn/McDonnell's economic plans will result in more capital flight from the economy than brexit will.

 

If you're an investor based in Singapore/Australia/America or wherever, you're not going to sit around with your money invested in the UK whilst industries are being nationalised. You can say that it's only one or two industries that are planned to be, but investors abroad, who don't have the time or inclination to understand the nuances of British politics, will see it through the prism of the UK public being quite mad, voting first for brexit, then for a nationalising socialist. I.e. time to get out the country as it goes bananas.

It's rail, post and water. I'm not sure business does make decisions without looking at actual facts. 

 

Corporate tax to where it was in 2014 is hardly gong to destroy business incentive - particularly given the starting point is so low compared to other countries. 

 

Minimum wage increasing to only a little bit more than the Tories planned to increase it to. 

 

Companies would rather not pay a bit more, that's true. But none of these changes are actually that significant. 

[breadandcheese]

23 minutes ago, toddybad said:

It's rail, post and water. I'm not sure business does make decisions without looking at actual facts. 

 

Corporate tax to where it was in 2014 is hardly gong to destroy business incentive - particularly given the starting point is so low compared to other countries. 

 

Minimum wage increasing to only a little bit more than the Tories planned to increase it to. 

 

Companies would rather not pay a bit more, that's true. But none of these changes are actually that significant. 

It's perception that is important.  

 

For example, if you asked an investor in New York to tell me about the nuances in the politics of Italy or Spain, they would look at you blankly.  So would investors in London.  If you ask them whether Italian government is pro-EU or eurosceptic, they would be able to answer.

 

So imagine the perception of the UK to investors around the world if they first leave the EU and then vote in a government who wish to nationalise industries.  They would see the UK, quite rightly, as a basket case and worry what might come next.  They would, quite rightly, move their investments to safer environments where they wouldn't be so worried.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, breadandcheese said:

It's perception that is important.  

 

For example, if you asked an investor in New York to tell me about the nuances in the politics of Italy or Spain, they would look at you blankly.  So would investors in London.  If you ask them whether Italian government is pro-EU or eurosceptic, they would be able to answer.

 

So imagine the perception of the UK to investors around the world if they first leave the EU and then vote in a government who wish to nationalise industries.  They would see the UK, quite rightly, as a basket case and worry what might come next.  They would, quite rightly, move their investments to safer environments where they wouldn't be so worried.

2

This is sadly true.

 

What matters is what people believe, not what actually is.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

It's perception that is important.  

 

For example, if you asked an investor in New York to tell me about the nuances in the politics of Italy or Spain, they would look at you blankly.  So would investors in London.  If you ask them whether Italian government is pro-EU or eurosceptic, they would be able to answer.

 

So imagine the perception of the UK to investors around the world if they first leave the EU and then vote in a government who wish to nationalise industries.  They would see the UK, quite rightly, as a basket case and worry what might come next.  They would, quite rightly, move their investments to safer environments where they wouldn't be so worried.

If a company invests a significant amount here then

1- they would usually have a uk base with uk management team to understand the reality of the situation

2- companies don't make multi million pound decisions without doing due diligence and lobbying.

3- labour have been talking to business continuously to try to sell their ideas. From what I can tell business would prefer low taxes but that's hardly a surprise. Labour is working hard on perception.

[Foxxed]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/17/vote-leave-campaign-group-fined-facing-police-probe-breaking/

 

The leave campaign broke the law.

 

The leaders ran away when they had the chance to lead the country.

 

They failed to get what they wanted when they led the negotiations.

 

All their promises and assurances turned out to be lies.

 

They split their own party even further and ran away from their government posts.

 

Brexit.

 

Edited 17 July 2018 by Foxxed

[Guest Foxin_mad]

Its crazy to pretend a Labour government would not cause a massive economic crash. Far worse than Brexit ever could be. 

 

Everything they stand for is anti business, anti rich. Their policies will absolutely cause job losses, I know for a fact they will a tax rise for my business, higher minimum wages means I will have to make staff redundant to protect profit margins. I am not going to the effort of running a business to make little or no money from it. You do that you take away the aspiration of working hard, the whole problem with Socialism in a nutshell! You can not have wealth distributed equally ever because some people are more skilled, more intelligent, harder working than others, that is a fact that will exist for eternity unless some utter bellend gets into power. An unskilled box packer can never earn as much as an accountant who has studied for 6 years, right there the whole stupid dumb  idea of socialism falls apart.

 

When things don't work out in their cloud cuckoo thinking; like all socialist madmen they will get more and more desperate, seizing more and more possessions and property until they run out of things to seize and tax. By then the country will be utterly fvcked for the few that have the misfortune to still be here. 

 

I really hope this country is not stupid enough to vote for Corbyn and his bunch of wankers, if they do get into power those who voted for him will deserve everything that is coming to them. I tell you one thing it isn't great public services and wealth equality, it is pain and destruction like nothing we have ever witnessed before in this country. 

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Its crazy to pretend a Labour government would not cause a massive economic crash. Far worse than Brexit ever could be. 

 

Everything they stand for is anti business, anti rich. Their policies will absolutely cause job losses, I know for a fact they will a tax rise for my business, higher minimum wages means I will have to make staff redundant to protect profit margins. I am not going to the effort of running a business to make little or no money from it. You do that you take away the aspiration of working hard, the whole problem with Socialism in a nutshell! You can not have wealth distributed equally ever because some people are more skilled, more intelligent, harder working than others, that is a fact that will exist for eternity unless some utter bellend gets into power. An unskilled box packer can never earn as much as an accountant who has studied for 6 years, right there the whole stupid dumb  idea of socialism falls apart.

 

When things don't work out in their cloud cuckoo thinking; like all socialist madmen they will get more and more desperate, seizing more and more possessions and property until they run out of things to seize and tax. By then the country will be utterly fvcked for the few that have the misfortune to still be here. 

 

I really hope this country is not stupid enough to vote for Corbyn and his bunch of wankers, if they do get into power those who voted for him will deserve everything that is coming to them. I tell you one thing it isn't great public services and wealth equality, it is pain and destruction like nothing we have ever witnessed before in this country. 

I don’t care about economic consequences short term, if it creates a better and fairer world for my kids. I’m yet to be convinced it will but as things stand I’ll vote for who ever can take out a TM government if she is still around when it comes back to us.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Its crazy to pretend a Labour government would not cause a massive economic crash. Far worse than Brexit ever could be. 

 

Everything they stand for is anti business, anti rich. Their policies will absolutely cause job losses, I know for a fact they will a tax rise for my business, higher minimum wages means I will have to make staff redundant to protect profit margins. I am not going to the effort of running a business to make little or no money from it. You do that you take away the aspiration of working hard, the whole problem with Socialism in a nutshell! You can not have wealth distributed equally ever because some people are more skilled, more intelligent, harder working than others, that is a fact that will exist for eternity unless some utter bellend gets into power. An unskilled box packer can never earn as much as an accountant who has studied for 6 years, right there the whole stupid dumb  idea of socialism falls apart.

 

When things don't work out in their cloud cuckoo thinking; like all socialist madmen they will get more and more desperate, seizing more and more possessions and property until they run out of things to seize and tax. By then the country will be utterly fvcked for the few that have the misfortune to still be here. 

 

I really hope this country is not stupid enough to vote for Corbyn and his bunch of wankers, if they do get into power those who voted for him will deserve everything that is coming to them. I tell you one thing it isn't great public services and wealth equality, it is pain and destruction like nothing we have ever witnessed before in this country. 

This is what a minor tax rise looks like to fox. I enjoyed having my wages suppressed for years on end to subsidise tax cuts for his business.

 

 

 

Edited 17 July 2018 by Guest

[Buce]

18 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Its crazy to pretend a Labour government would not cause a massive economic crash. Far worse than Brexit ever could be. 

 

Everything they stand for is anti business, anti rich. Their policies will absolutely cause job losses, I know for a fact they will a tax rise for my business, higher minimum wages means I will have to make staff redundant to protect profit margins. I am not going to the effort of running a business to make little or no money from it. You do that you take away the aspiration of working hard, the whole problem with Socialism in a nutshell! You can not have wealth distributed equally ever because some people are more skilled, more intelligent, harder working than others, that is a fact that will exist for eternity unless some utter bellend gets into power. An unskilled box packer can never earn as much as an accountant who has studied for 6 years, right there the whole stupid dumb  idea of socialism falls apart.

 

When things don't work out in their cloud cuckoo thinking; like all socialist madmen they will get more and more desperate, seizing more and more possessions and property until they run out of things to seize and tax. By then the country will be utterly fvcked for the few that have the misfortune to still be here. 

 

I really hope this country is not stupid enough to vote for Corbyn and his bunch of wankers, if they do get into power those who voted for him will deserve everything that is coming to them. I tell you one thing it isn't great public services and wealth equality, it is pain and destruction like nothing we have ever witnessed before in this country. 

5

 

If you can't make money without exploiting others then you have no right calling yourself a businessman.

[Buce]

 

Michael Gove admits leave campaign wrong to fuel Turkey fears

Brexiter says he would have preferred campaign to have had ‘slightly different feel’

 

Michael Gove has admitted that the official leave campaign should not have stoked fears about Turkish immigration during the 2016 Brexit referendum.

In an interview included in a political book published on Thursday, the environment secretary, who was a key figure in the winning Vote Leave campaign, said that if it had been left entirely to him the leave campaign “would have [had] a slightly different feel”.

During the campaign Gove claimed that Turkey and four other countries could join the EU as soon as 2020, and their accession could lead to 5.2 million extra people moving to the UK by 2030 under free movement.

The Conservative minister was asked by Tom Baldwin, a former communications director for Ed Miliband, in his book Ctrl Alt Delete whether he had been happy making appeals to “some very low sentiments” in the context of concerns over Turkish immigration. The minister replied: “I know what you mean, yes. If it had been left entirely to me the leave campaign would have a slightly different feel.

 

“I would have to go back and look at everything I said and think whether that was the right response at the right time. There is a sense at the back of my mind that we didn’t get everything absolutely right. It’s a difficult one.”

Warnings about a possible Turkish accession to the EU were a controversial theme of the leave campaign and were frequently made by Gove himself. The leave campaign released a video in May 2016 arguing that “David Cameron cannot be trusted on Turkey”, to back up an argument made in a speech by the minister that if Turkey were to join the EU the impact on the NHS would be “clearly unsustainable”.

In June 2016, only a couple of weeks before the final vote, Gove made a second warning about Turkey, arguing that if the country were ever to join the EU it could create a risk to security. “With the terrorism threat that we face only growing, it is hard to see how it could possibly be in our security interests to open visa-free travel to 77 million Turkish citizens and to create a border-free zone from Iraq, Iran and Syria to the English Channel,” he said.

Turkey has repeatedly said it wants to join the EU but slow-moving accession talks have ground to a halt after the crackdown led by the president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, following the failed military coup in 2016. Even at the time of the UK’s referendum, the possibility of Turkey joining the EU was seen as remote or non-existent.

 

Elsewhere in the book, Gove says he believes the referendum vote helped to puncture popular concerns about immigration and “burst the Ukip bubble”. He argues that by having the vote, “attitudes to migration are less illiberal in the UK now than in any continental European country. It has been a release of pressure, a humbling of the elites.”

Baldwin worked as communications director for Ed Miliband when he was leader of the opposition after a long period as a political journalist. He has returned to Westminster to act as communications director for the people’s vote campaign, which is campaigning for a second referendum to be held after Theresa May brings back her final deal from Brussels.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/16/michael-gove-admits-leave-was-wrong-to-fuel-immigration-fears

[davieG]

3 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Michael Gove admits leave campaign wrong to fuel Turkey fears

Brexiter says he would have preferred campaign to have had ‘slightly different feel’

 

Michael Gove has admitted that the official leave campaign should not have stoked fears about Turkish immigration during the 2016 Brexit referendum.

In an interview included in a political book published on Thursday, the environment secretary, who was a key figure in the winning Vote Leave campaign, said that if it had been left entirely to him the leave campaign “would have [had] a slightly different feel”.

During the campaign Gove claimed that Turkey and four other countries could join the EU as soon as 2020, and their accession could lead to 5.2 million extra people moving to the UK by 2030 under free movement.

The Conservative minister was asked by Tom Baldwin, a former communications director for Ed Miliband, in his book Ctrl Alt Delete whether he had been happy making appeals to “some very low sentiments” in the context of concerns over Turkish immigration. The minister replied: “I know what you mean, yes. If it had been left entirely to me the leave campaign would have a slightly different feel.

 

“I would have to go back and look at everything I said and think whether that was the right response at the right time. There is a sense at the back of my mind that we didn’t get everything absolutely right. It’s a difficult one.”

Warnings about a possible Turkish accession to the EU were a controversial theme of the leave campaign and were frequently made by Gove himself. The leave campaign released a video in May 2016 arguing that “David Cameron cannot be trusted on Turkey”, to back up an argument made in a speech by the minister that if Turkey were to join the EU the impact on the NHS would be “clearly unsustainable”.

In June 2016, only a couple of weeks before the final vote, Gove made a second warning about Turkey, arguing that if the country were ever to join the EU it could create a risk to security. “With the terrorism threat that we face only growing, it is hard to see how it could possibly be in our security interests to open visa-free travel to 77 million Turkish citizens and to create a border-free zone from Iraq, Iran and Syria to the English Channel,” he said.

Turkey has repeatedly said it wants to join the EU but slow-moving accession talks have ground to a halt after the crackdown led by the president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, following the failed military coup in 2016. Even at the time of the UK’s referendum, the possibility of Turkey joining the EU was seen as remote or non-existent.

 

Elsewhere in the book, Gove says he believes the referendum vote helped to puncture popular concerns about immigration and “burst the Ukip bubble”. He argues that by having the vote, “attitudes to migration are less illiberal in the UK now than in any continental European country. It has been a release of pressure, a humbling of the elites.”

Baldwin worked as communications director for Ed Miliband when he was leader of the opposition after a long period as a political journalist. He has returned to Westminster to act as communications director for the people’s vote campaign, which is campaigning for a second referendum to be held after Theresa May brings back her final deal from Brussels.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/16/michael-gove-admits-leave-was-wrong-to-fuel-immigration-fears

Sounds like he's preparing himself for a leadership attempt.

[Guest MattP]

28 minutes ago, Foxxed said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/17/vote-leave-campaign-group-fined-facing-police-probe-breaking/

 

The leave campaign broke the law.

 

The leaders ran away when they had the chance the lead the country.

A slight overspend during purdah, yet the government spends 9 million on a leaflet telling us all to remain just before it and that's totally legal, which tells you how completely ridiculous the whole thing is regarding the laws around electoral spending.

 

As for the second point, how many times can this lie be spread? Boris ran away. Him and him only. Gove went for leader, Fox went for leader, Leadsom went for leader, they all lost to Theresa May. Farage wanted the position as Chief Negotiator, the Tories told him he was playing no part in it.

You can't just re-write history because you don't like it.

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, davieG said:

Sounds like he's preparing himself for a leadership attempt.

 

By admitting that he's a lying, dishonest scumbag?

 

Sounds perfect for the job.

[breadandcheese]

55 minutes ago, toddybad said:

If a company invests a significant amount here then

1- they would usually have a uk base with uk management team to understand the reality of the situation

2- companies don't make multi million pound decisions without doing due diligence and lobbying.

3- labour have been talking to business continuously to try to sell their ideas. From what I can tell business would prefer low taxes but that's hardly a surprise. Labour is working hard on perception.

I think we're talking slight cross purposes.  I'm talking about investment funds, pension funds, etc, that control billions of pounds.  Companies cannot just pull out overnight.  Investment funds can and will do. This then has knock-on effects, stock market falls, falling currency, inflation, falling house prices, that then feed into the real economy with investment decisions by businesses and households.

Edited 17 July 2018 by breadandcheese

[davieG]

3 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

By admitting that he's a lying, dishonest scumbag?

 

Sounds perfect for the job.

It's the modern way, open up your heart to all your regrets and mistakes (a way of changing tack to appease the current elector preferences) and you'll be forgiven well so it seems in politics.

 

Better than denying you ever said or did something when everyone knows you did.

[Alf Bentley]

21 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Its crazy to pretend a Labour government would not cause a massive economic crash. Far worse than Brexit ever could be. 

 

Everything they stand for is anti business, anti rich. Their policies will absolutely cause job losses, I know for a fact they will a tax rise for my business, higher minimum wages means I will have to make staff redundant to protect profit margins. I am not going to the effort of running a business to make little or no money from it. You do that you take away the aspiration of working hard, the whole problem with Socialism in a nutshell! You can not have wealth distributed equally ever because some people are more skilled, more intelligent, harder working than others, that is a fact that will exist for eternity unless some utter bellend gets into power. An unskilled box packer can never earn as much as an accountant who has studied for 6 years, right there the whole stupid dumb  idea of socialism falls apart.

 

When things don't work out in their cloud cuckoo thinking; like all socialist madmen they will get more and more desperate, seizing more and more possessions and property until they run out of things to seize and tax. By then the country will be utterly fvcked for the few that have the misfortune to still be here. 

 

I really hope this country is not stupid enough to vote for Corbyn and his bunch of wankers, if they do get into power those who voted for him will deserve everything that is coming to them. I tell you one thing it isn't great public services and wealth equality, it is pain and destruction like nothing we have ever witnessed before in this country. 

 

It's not crazy to believe (not "pretend") that a Labour govt would not inevitably cause a massive economic crash - or to believe that a No Deal Brexit would cause infinitely more damage. It's just a different opinion from yours.

 

Neither the last Labour manifesto nor other policy statements suggest the sort of crazed, totalitarian takeover and mass confiscation of property that you depict. More tax and spend than you might like, nationalisation of certain sectors (probably over a number of years), but however much you might disapprove of him, Corbyn is hardly Pol Pot! 

 

Even if a Corbyn govt is way more radical than I'm expecting, for your scenario to come about a Labour govt would have to ignore all civil service & other advice, ignore all economic/social impact - and ignore most of their MPs, who would oppose anything so wild. I don't particularly rate Corbyn, but McDonnell is someone with some economic sense and a sense of strategy - and he'd be running economic policy.

 

There's been a lot of talk of crazed Corbynistas deselecting masses of Labour MPs......but how many have been deselected? Can you name a few? Any?! Most Labour MPs would not support the sort of crazed policies you depict. Granted, there might be a few excesses or mistakes (as with any govt), things I wouldn't like, never mind you.....but your depiction of mass property seizures, mass emigration and "pain and destruction like nothing ever witnessed before in this country" (not even WW2? The Black Death?!) is pure fantasy. I worry that your blood pressure is getting dangerously high or that you may run out of spittle, such is the apparent fervor of your hatred of the Left! 

 

Has anyone suggested paying a box packer as much as an accountant? Could you point me to the Labour policy that calls for that? I'm sure Labour would tax big business and the rich a bit more, spend more on public services, maybe oversee a pay increase for box packers. But the adult minimum wage has risen by 25%+ under a Tory govt in the last 6 years (less for young people). Is your business somehow  only affected by wage increases instituted by Labour Govts, not Tory Govts?! Of course, we know that the Tories used to oppose the introduction of ANY minimum wage on precisely the grounds you use now - that it would cause redundancies to protect profit margins. In reality, it presaged 10 years of comparative prosperity under a Labour Govt. Under a Tory Govt in the 1990s, as a P/T barman I remember having to negotiate my hourly rate up from £2.50 to £2.75.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

25 minutes ago, toddybad said:

This is what a minor tax rise looks like to fox. I enjoyed having my wages suppressed for years on end to subsidise tax cuts for his business.

 

 

 

 

The tax cuts allow me to employ more people and train more people which part of that do you Labour voters not get? If I am paying more tax then that stops as expenditure is reduced. I am one business in millions but I can assure you there will be thousands of businesses that will be the same. Jobs will be cut, there will be thousands more unemployed, who is paying for that? The taxpayer and more tax rises is who! Socialism is utter fvcktardery, it doesn't work.

22 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

If you can't make money without exploiting others then you have no right calling yourself a businessman.

The people who work for me are paid a fair wage above minimum in all cases except one who is an unskilled labourer. There is no exploiting staff whatsoever, in an exceptional year there will be exception bonuses.

 

I am saying that if I end up paying 5% more corporate tax and a higher minimum wage, which will result in an increase for skilled staff also then I will have to reduce the workforce to ensure that one day I might be able to fvcking retire. That is absolute fact and common sense, not exploitation or any other leftwing hyperbolic bollocks.

 

At the end of the day most business small are large are here to make profits for their shareholders/owners, we are not here to provide employment facilities for the state. If there is not profit then staff and unnecessary spending will be cut until profit returns. 

 

44 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I don’t care about economic consequences short term, if it creates a better and fairer world for my kids. I’m yet to be convinced it will but as things stand I’ll vote for who ever can take out a TM government if she is still around when it comes back to us.

The economic consequences of a Corbyn led Labour government will be very long term indeed. 

 

If your definition of a better fairer world is every single person being a whole lot poorer, then yes Labour will deliver that. They will deliver a more equal society but it will be like other despot Socialist states that have tried this unworkable bollocks and failed. If you want to fight for bog roll then go ahead and vote Labour. 

 

The latest Corbyn bullshit the other day he wants children to be indoctrinated about trade unions at school FFS! What an absolute willy puller, this man is such a dangerous **** its untrue. It would be a shame to see him destroy this once great country. 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

It's not crazy to believe (not "pretend") that a Labour govt would not inevitably cause a massive economic crash - or to believe that a No Deal Brexit would cause infinitely more damage. It's just a different opinion from yours.

 

Neither the last Labour manifesto nor other policy statements suggest the sort of crazed, totalitarian takeover and mass confiscation of property that you depict. More tax and spend than you might like, nationalisation of certain sectors (probably over a number of years), but however much you might disapprove of him, Corbyn is hardly Pol Pot! 

 

Even if a Corbyn govt is way more radical than I'm expecting, for your scenario to come about a Labour govt would have to ignore all civil service & other advice, ignore all economic/social impact - and ignore most of their MPs, who would oppose anything so wild. I don't particularly rate Corbyn, but McDonnell is someone with some economic sense and a sense of strategy - and he'd be running economic policy.

 

There's been a lot of talk of crazed Corbynistas deselecting masses of Labour MPs......but how many have been deselected? Can you name a few? Any?! Most Labour MPs would not support the sort of crazed policies you depict. Granted, there might be a few excesses or mistakes (as with any govt), things I wouldn't like, never mind you.....but your depiction of mass property seizures, mass emigration and "pain and destruction like nothing ever witnessed before in this country" (not even WW2? The Black Death?!) is pure fantasy. I worry that your blood pressure is getting dangerously high or that you may run out of spittle, such is the apparent fervor of your hatred of the Left! 

 

Has anyone suggested paying a box packer as much as an accountant? Could you point me to the Labour policy that calls for that? I'm sure Labour would tax big business and the rich a bit more, spend more on public services, maybe oversee a pay increase for box packers. But the adult minimum wage has risen by 25%+ under a Tory govt in the last 6 years (less for young people). Is your business somehow  only affected by wage increases instituted by Labour Govts, not Tory Govts?! Of course, we know that the Tories used to oppose the introduction of ANY minimum wage on precisely the grounds you use now - that it would cause redundancies to protect profit margins. In reality, it presaged 10 years of comparative prosperity under a Labour Govt. Under a Tory Govt in the 1990s, as a P/T barman I remember having to negotiate my hourly rate up from £2.50 to £2.75.

I think the personalities of Corbyn and McDonnell and the influence of Momentum are very dangerous. When their initial policies and forecasts don't work, because they wont, verified by the IFS who said their tax take will not even be close to what they predict, they will get more and more desperate. They have a lot in their egos and characters that makes them appear likely to have dictatorial tendencies like some of the people they endorse (Chavez). I find their behaviour and ego massaging very worrying indeed. I believe they could ignore all advice and even change laws to allow such actions to take place.

 

Labours policy is 'wealth distribution', to make the 'rich' pay, a fairer society, 'class war' (Corbyn, McDonnell phrases). Surely its not fair if some earns more than someone else? At the end of the day, if you earn more the Labour party will tax you more, so the accountant may have a 75% rate of tax and not actually take home that much more than the box packer, its a silly system.

 

The minimum wage has risen under the Tories, for some business this has been a problem. I could cope with more minimum wages rises but not tax rises and minimum wage rises, that is too much. This is what Labour propose. Its the double whammy that will cause job loses.

 

I know in some sectors some jobs have been lost due to minimum wage rises, thankfully we currently have a good jobs market so most of those have picked up work elsewhere. If you start mass hitting business with Tax rises and enforced pay increases something has to give.

 

Anyway I just think the whole idea of far left socialism is silly, it will never work.

 

There will always be disparity in people (animals) and as such their will be disparity in the money they can make. 

[Alf Bentley]

8 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

 

The economic consequences of a Corbyn led Labour government will be very long term indeed. 

 

The latest Corbyn bullshit the other day he wants children to be indoctrinated about trade unions at school FFS! What an absolute willy puller, this man is such a dangerous **** its untrue. It would be a shame to see him destroy this once great country. 

 

For the Hard Brexit supporters out there (and I'm aware that doesn't include you, Foxin).... 

"The economic consequences of a Corbyn Govt don't matter. The important thing is for Labour to take back control"  

 

On your point about schools: I'd oppose any indoctrination, be it about unions or business, religion or atheism. That's why I oppose faith schools. However, young minds should be exposed to all major ideas, be that religions or humanism, business and the profit-motive or the role/history of trade unions. They should also be taught to assess the pros and cons of ALL such ideas with criticism and appreciation. It's a preparation for thinking for themselves as adults.