Italy Shuts Ports to Migrant Ship

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

6 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

That's my view doesn't make it right, and I am not in charge. So is irrelevant really.

 

I seems counter productive to send out the message to the people traffickers its ok to take peoples life saving to bring them to the Med and send them across in a dingy because when they start sinking we will rescue them and bring them into the EU! We are keeping the traffickers in business! Its never ever going to solve the problem. We are aiding and abetting them! 

 

I would ask is the solution to lay on ships and bring more and more into European countries already with massive economic and social integration problems? Most of these countries have been having civil wars for years, you move the same problems to Europe do you think they will go away? 

I dunno.  Couldnt you patrol with ships and safely and nicely také them back home?  Increase patrols?

 

If keeping them out is more cost effective, it would create a few jobs, and save money.

 

Surely people would stop paying the trafifickers if patrols made it impossible to get through?

 

Dunno, cant be letting people drown though.  Its not on

[Buce]

By ‘taking them back home’, do you mean their country of origin or   Libya?

[Dr The Singh]

1 hour ago, DennisNedry said:

Are you referring to colonialism? I don't take credit for this quote but it answers your point expertly I feel:

 

The classic lame excuse of the self-loathing white man. The more recently colonised India, Singapore and Hong Kong seem to be doing fine. Ethiopia and Liberia were not colonised in any significant way and yet are still basket cases. How many decades does it take to rebuild and sort out the problems caused by colonialism (forgetting the benefits such as infrastructure, housing, rail, European engineering and medicine and education)? Japan and Germany have rebuilt themselves from rubble and a decimated population in less time.

 

Edit: I would also think that the humanitarian argument is the only one that holds any sway with me at all, because at the end of the day when you see someone drowning in the Med you'd rather they were saved than not. 

Any argument about socio-economic benefits of the illegal entry of a million plus poor, low skilled, culturally and religiously alien men into the continent is fanciful at best. 

 

I've been asked to comment.  India is a failed post colonial society, the infrastructure is still pre independence.  In fact India is suffering the largest lack of water because the pipe work has never been replaced.  The rail system is 1800 British, the laws are 1800 British, majority roads are 1800 British.  Education levels have decreased, living standards as a whole have decreased, crime has increased.

 

Punjab has the biggest immigration problem, the educated and rich do not want to live there, there arena distinct lack of skills.  This is due to the fact the nation has failed in creating industry.

 

India has killed more of its own people in the the last 70 odd years then colonial Britian.  It has administered more genocides on its own people then any other nation.

 

I'm not saying that Britian should never have left but India has failed.

 

On this topic, I think Italy have done the right thing.  Every nation has to think of the greater good of its own people.  I sympathize with those ethnic migrants, but there processes and procedures by which they can apply to emigrate, rather the bully boy tactics as I see it

[Guest Foxin_mad]

9 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

I dunno.  Couldnt you patrol with ships and safely and nicely také them back home?  Increase patrols?

 

If keeping them out is more cost effective, it would create a few jobs, and save money.

 

Surely people would stop paying the trafifickers if patrols made it impossible to get through?

 

Dunno, cant be letting people drown though.  Its not on

Well the ideal solution is that they don't get in the sea at all but I can not see a solution to make that happen.

 

Of course no one wants to see people drowning but there ARE people drowning at present the will continue to be so, and the current systems is encouraging more and more people to risk the journey. 

 

We are fuelling the illegal trafficking of humans through Africa by our actions. 

 

We think we are doing the right thing, a good thing but in reality it is fuelling a deplorable trade. 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

1 minute ago, Foxin_mad said:

Well the ideal solution is that they don't get in the sea at all but I can not see a solution to make that happen.

 

Of course no one wants to see people drowning but there ARE people drowning at present the will continue to be so, and the current systems is encouraging more and more people to risk the journey. 

 

We are fuelling the illegal trafficking of humans through Africa by our actions. 

 

We think we are doing the right thing, a good thing but in reality it is fuelling a deplorable trade. 

Fair points

 

Then we are gambling on how desperate people are.  Maybe they'll just keep trying and drown in higher numbers.

 

Or maybe they'll try less.  Tis a gamble though with a certain initial increase in casualties

 

 

[Dr The Singh]

47 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Fair points

 

Then we are gambling on how desperate people are.  Maybe they'll just keep trying and drown in higher numbers.

 

Or maybe they'll try less.  Tis a gamble though with a certain initial increase in casualties

 

 

I have family that have taken such risks in trying to get Into Europe.  They pay traffickers silly money, and are never explained the full risks. 

 

Plus the success stories that are told, make the risk worth it.

 

This type of migration will continue for decades, aslong as the successes continue.  The right thing to do is to take a hard line with this type of migration.

 

Plus the real people that require assylum lose out, because of ££ migrants.

[Finnegan]

Can't really sit here and complain about economic migrants from our position of lucky luxury though tbf. 

 

Would any of us just sit in shit hole countries and let ourselves and our families have terrible lives while, by the accident of birth, some folk a few thousand miles north had it all? 

 

**** that, I'd chuck me mum, dad and sister in the back of the first container I saw and off we'd go. 

 

Unless we collectively as a species do more to address the ridiculous disparity between the poorest and the wealthiest then there'll always be an influx from poorer countries to wealthier ones.

 

The EU can't stop that, what it can do is legislate in a way that shares the burden. You can't expect the closest countries to all take the hit, especially when Southern Europe already struggles with its economy, its job market and whatever else. 

 

Even Spain volunteering to take the last load on, it's not like the Spanish are in a superb state. 

[Dr The Singh]

9 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

Can't really sit here and complain about economic migrants from our position of lucky luxury though tbf. 

 

Would any of us just sit in shit hole countries and let ourselves and our families have terrible lives while, by the accident of birth, some folk a few thousand miles north had it all? 

 

**** that, I'd chuck me mum, dad and sister in the back of the first container I saw and off we'd go. 

 

Unless we collectively as a species do more to address the ridiculous disparity between the poorest and the wealthiest then there'll always be an influx from poorer countries to wealthier ones.

 

The EU can't stop that, what it can do is legislate in a way that shares the burden. You can't expect the closest countries to all take the hit, especially when Southern Europe already struggles with its economy, its job market and whatever else. 

 

Even Spain volunteering to take the last load on, it's not like the Spanish are in a superb state. 

Finners, I can complain about economic migrants, because most of my family from the pooonjab are.  And significant amounts of my family in the pooonjab are desperate to come here and are continuing to make tracks.

 

Yes I feel for them because UK can offer them a better life but this is a trend that will never stop, and if the poooonjabis are wanting in so is everyone else.  Simple fact is we can't accommodate them.all and have processes to pick the ones that we need.  Sneaking in, or claiming stay isn't helpful nor useful to us all.

 

Unfortunately for some, life is a bitch and the world powers like it that way.

 

Edited 12 June 2018 by Dr The Singh

[breadandcheese]

14 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

Can't really sit here and complain about economic migrants from our position of lucky luxury though tbf. 

 

Would any of us just sit in shit hole countries and let ourselves and our families have terrible lives while, by the accident of birth, some folk a few thousand miles north had it all? 

 

**** that, I'd chuck me mum, dad and sister in the back of the first container I saw and off we'd go. 

 

Unless we collectively as a species do more to address the ridiculous disparity between the poorest and the wealthiest then there'll always be an influx from poorer countries to wealthier ones.

 

The EU can't stop that, what it can do is legislate in a way that shares the burden. You can't expect the closest countries to all take the hit, especially when Southern Europe already struggles with its economy, its job market and whatever else. 

 

Even Spain volunteering to take the last load on, it's not like the Spanish are in a superb state. 

I read a fascinating article arguing that the increasing standard of living in the poorest countries had helped to fuel the dangerous migration into Europe.  It's not cheap to migrate to the EU costing thousands of pounds for one person. Admittedly, when these countries become even wealthier, you would expect emigration rates to fall.

 

Edit: Here's the article.  It's worth a read. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11842760/Prepare-yourselves-The-Great-Migration-will-be-with-us-for-decades.html

Edited 12 June 2018 by breadandcheese

[Guest Foxin_mad]

13 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

I read a fascinating article arguing that the increasing standard of living in the poorest countries had helped to fuel the dangerous migration into Europe.  It's not cheap to migrate to the EU costing thousands of pounds for one person. Admittedly, when these countries become even wealthier, you would expect emigration rates to fall.

 

Edit: Here's the article.  It's worth a read. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11842760/Prepare-yourselves-The-Great-Migration-will-be-with-us-for-decades.html

 

Equally the more poor people that come here and the more our public services are stretch, we probably become poorer. If we have to spread our finite resources amongst more people we will all be poorer. 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

14 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

I read a fascinating article arguing that the increasing standard of living in the poorest countries had helped to fuel the dangerous migration into Europe.  It's not cheap to migrate to the EU costing thousands of pounds for one person. Admittedly, when these countries become even wealthier, you would expect emigration rates to fall.

 

Edit: Here's the article.  It's worth a read. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11842760/Prepare-yourselves-The-Great-Migration-will-be-with-us-for-decades.html

 

Interesting article, but this bit made me laugh...

 

''Given that David Cameron is one of the few people in Europe keeping his head throughout this crisis, he’s the ideal man to start it''

 

His head was so cool it had ****ing icicles hanging from it

 

[Captain...]

4 hours ago, MattP said:

Had we not taken the first few of these boats in the first place you wouldn't have the numbers coming across over the last few years.

 

There is a pretty good argument that taking in the first wave of these boats has cost more lives than it would had we let the first few just sink, let alone the amount of money we have also put into the hands of the gangsters running the trade in Libya.

I don’t disagree with the last part but when you have a boat of 600 people in desperate need I couldn’t turn them away. The problem isn’t the 600 unfortunate souls being used as a political pawn/scapegoat it is the potential thousands more that could be coming.

 

One approach is a collaborative one working with these countries to stop the flow at the source. You need to turn off the tap not just stick the hose in a different window. We have no jurisdiction in these countries that are allowing traffickers to grease the official’s palms. We work with Libya or Liberia or whoever to clamp down on the traffickers they are the bad guys here. Do this by setting up joint economic ventures and help pump some resources back into their economy whilst also offering skills exchanges and a tariff on how many migrants we can accept legally.

 

Now by We I mean the EU as a collaborative force for good, but at the moment the developing nations are squabbling with themselves over who gets the biggest slice of the trade pie.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

3 hours ago, Buce said:

By ‘taking them back home’, do you mean their country of origin or   Libya?

This was asking me right? 

 

I would include a full taxi/minibus service from whichever port we take them back to to their country of origin

 

If they refuse to say where they are from then we give them a bus ticket which would serve for all the possible countries they could be from based on their ethnicity and possible nations in which that ethnicity may live.

 

They can then either take the bus to wherever and my organisation is free of guilt

 

If they choose to hang around and try to scrape money for another illegal boat to Europe, that is their choice, but my sea patrol will be so heavily invested in as to make it a futile effort.  Round-the-clock patrols, job creating patrols

 

This would be subsidised by the money saved from countries who have reduced their immigrant numbers due to my glorious scheme.

 

- think of it as like Trump's wall, but on the sea

 

I am a genius

 

Edited 12 June 2018 by AlloverthefloorYesNdidi

[Innovindil]

10 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

This was asking me right? 

 

I would include a full taxi/minibus service from whichever port we take them back to to their country of origin

 

If they refuse to say where they are from then we give them a bus ticket which would serve for all the possible countries they could be from based on their ethnicity and possible nations in which that ethnicity may live.

 

They can then either take the bus to wherever and my organisation is free of guilt

 

If they choose to hang around and try to scrape money for another illegal boat to Europe, that is their choice, but my sea patrol will be so heavily invested in as to make it a futile effort.  Round-the-clock patrols, job creating patrols

 

This would be subsidised by the money saved from countries who have reduced their immigrant numbers due to my glorious scheme.

 

- think of it as like Trump's wall, but on the sea

 

I am a genius

 

 

Easier to go full empire and just take over Libya. 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

1 minute ago, Innovindil said:

Easier to go full empire and just take over Libya. 

Full Clearance!  Full Empire!

 

Tbf, Gadaffi was doing this job for us before we took him out

 

Did you ever hear that quote of his where he said he doesnt understand why they want to také him out because Libya is keeping the lid on African migrants into Europe

 

Wasnt half right!

[Buce]

17 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

This was asking me right? 

 

I would include a full taxi/minibus service from whichever port we take them back to to their country of origin

 

If they refuse to say where they are from then we give them a bus ticket which would serve for all the possible countries they could be from based on their ethnicity and possible nations in which that ethnicity may live.

 

They can then either take the bus to wherever and my organisation is free of guilt

 

If they choose to hang around and try to scrape money for another illegal boat to Europe, that is their choice, but my sea patrol will be so heavily invested in as to make it a futile effort.  Round-the-clock patrols, job creating patrols

 

This would be subsidised by the money saved from countries who have reduced their immigrant numbers due to my glorious scheme.

 

- think of it as like Trump's wall, but on the sea

 

I am a genius

 

 

 

Yeah, sorry, I meant to quote you.

 

I assume this is just a flippant answer?

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

Just now, Buce said:

 

Yeah, sorry, I meant to quote you.

 

I assume this is just a flippant answer?

Erm, yes.

 

Just to be clear, I find any simple answer to this question a bit ridiculous as it is not a simple problem

 

I was trying to use satire to demonstrate this.

 

The Gaddafi thing I just mentioned for example hasnt been brought up here.  Messing up that state has contributed to this, but we're not allowed to say that because of whataboutery or whatever.

 

[Buce]

1 minute ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Erm, yes.

 

Just to be clear, I find any simple answer to this question a bit ridiculous as it is not a simple problem

 

I was trying to use satire to demonstrate this.

 

The Gaddafi thing I just mentioned for example hasnt been brought up here.  Messing up that state has contributed to this, but we're not allowed to say that because of whataboutery or whatever.

 

 

Gotcha.

 

The Gadaffi thing is entirely relevant, I agree - we have blood on our hands, along with all the other nations that aided that regime change.

 

 

[DennisNedry]

2 hours ago, Finnegan said:

Can't really sit here and complain about economic migrants from our position of lucky luxury though tbf. 

 

Would any of us just sit in shit hole countries and let ourselves and our families have terrible lives while, by the accident of birth, some folk a few thousand miles north had it all? 

 

**** that, I'd chuck me mum, dad and sister in the back of the first container I saw and off we'd go. 

 

Unless we collectively as a species do more to address the ridiculous disparity between the poorest and the wealthiest then there'll always be an influx from poorer countries to wealthier ones.

 

The EU can't stop that, what it can do is legislate in a way that shares the burden. You can't expect the closest countries to all take the hit, especially when Southern Europe already struggles with its economy, its job market and whatever else. 

 

Even Spain volunteering to take the last load on, it's not like the Spanish are in a superb state. 

 

Agree here Finnegan, I don't think anybody has blamed the migrants themselves. 

 

Interesting that you referred to the situation as a 'burden'.  I'm happy to see that you have the intellectual honesty and integrity not to pretend that the millions of mostly impoverished, unskilled, culturally/religiously alien, and in many cases psychologically traumatized, people arriving are somehow the savior to Western Europe's ageing population and economic woes.

We (our politicians and the EU) do need to be honest and say that  this situation will not benefit Europe but however must be carried out for humanitarian reasons.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

27 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Erm, yes.

 

Just to be clear, I find any simple answer to this question a bit ridiculous as it is not a simple problem

 

I was trying to use satire to demonstrate this.

 

The Gaddafi thing I just mentioned for example hasnt been brought up here.  Messing up that state has contributed to this, but we're not allowed to say that because of whataboutery or whatever.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Gotcha.

 

The Gadaffi thing is entirely relevant, I agree - we have blood on our hands, along with all the other nations that aided that regime change.

 

 

Of course these things are relevant, Gadaffi, Syria, the Arab spring all seem to be a particular driver for more migration.

 

Of course certain European governments making stupid claims about all migrants being welcome isn't exactly the brightest thing to have happened either.

 

There is also the natural barrier in that parts of Africa are extremely inhospitable to live in even if you are rich. Some of these countries can not supply enough water and food to support their existence. Others are so corrupt they have absolutely no hope. 

 

I fully understand why people want to come to Europe. But pragmatically if the whole of Africa or even large numbers decide to come to Europe we have a problem. Its not sustainable. 

 

 

[NasPb]

As an African, fixing this issue is simple. Just make legal immigration easier from Africa. Let the EU create areas around Africa where migrants can apply to go to Europe and as long as they do not have criminal records, and they have skills to work some type of job, let them in. Companies can also obtain labor from this as well.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

20 minutes ago, NasPb said:

As an African, fixing this issue is simple. Just make legal immigration easier from Africa. Let the EU create areas around Africa where migrants can apply to go to Europe and as long as they do not have criminal records, and they have skills to work some type of job, let them in. Companies can also obtain labor from this as well.

That could actually coincide with Brexit pretty well. Also for unskilled labour. No more Polish/Romanian labour, switch to African labour.

Poor buggers wont enjoy them zero hour contracts though

[Dr The Singh]

27 minutes ago, NasPb said:

As an African, fixing this issue is simple. Just make legal immigration easier from Africa. Let the EU create areas around Africa where migrants can apply to go to Europe and as long as they do not have criminal records, and they have skills to work some type of job, let them in. Companies can also obtain labor from this as well.

It won't solve the issue, there are already processes in place for migrants to apply for working visa's etc, the problem is that the amount of people applying.  Making it easier will not change a thing, the amount of migrants EU wants against migrants applying is so one sided. 

 

It's hard enough for skilled migrants to get in because of numbers, I have a nephew with a engineering degree form a top Indian university, he passed all the associate exams etc to put himself forward but he is on a pool of so many others and will never get in.  So, he got into the UK illegally through a agent and lives illegally, living in a property of 5 other men, works as a cash in labourer..............................and he is happy with his decision, go figure.

[Finnegan]

1 hour ago, DennisNedry said:

 

Agree here Finnegan, I don't think anybody has blamed the migrants themselves. 

 

Interesting that you referred to the situation as a 'burden'.  I'm happy to see that you have the intellectual honesty and integrity not to pretend that the millions of mostly impoverished, unskilled, culturally/religiously alien, and in many cases psychologically traumatized, people arriving are somehow the savior to Western Europe's ageing population and economic woes.

We (our politicians and the EU) do need to be honest and say that  this situation will not benefit Europe but however must be carried out for humanitarian reasons.

 

Where you and I would differ is where you start talking about culturally and religiously alien. 

 

I don't particularly give a shit about that, I'd love move to Japan and I assure you I'd be an absolute cultural alien there. 

 

Skilled versus unskilled Labour imports however are a perfectly fair and rational thing tod discuss. Possibly the only thing that should really be discussed when talking immigration if you want to not be a dick about it. 

[Samilktray]

Referring to somebody as a culturally and religiously alien is a bit dehumanising isn't it