Religion

[Benguin]

3 hours ago, Parafox said:

I acknowledge that makes me a kind and thoughtful, considerate person but not necessarily a believer in a God. In my (ex) job, I helped and gave a lot of myself to those that needed my skills, knowledge and my attention. I never for one minute considered I was doing God's will. It was my job to do that. God will look at me as a non-believer as I renounce his existence. My friend, who is a Catholic, tells me I will go to Hell unless I acknowledge God's existence. That to me feels like a threat that I will suffer unless I believe and that makes no sense to me if God is all forgiving.

It’s not a threat at all. God loves us so much that he lets us choose whether we want a relationship with him. How could God be loving if he forced you to go to heaven and worship him when you didn’t want to? Hell is a place where you are separated from a relationship with God. The people who go there will be there through their own volition. Since God is the source of love, joy and hope, I can’t imagine hell being nice but heaven would be hell to someone who doesn’t want a relationship with God.

 

I always like to ask the following question to unbelievers as it highlights their worldview is more often than not based on their volition rather than intellect:

 

If you had irrefutable, undeniable, absolute proof that Christianity was true, would you become a Christian? 

 

if your answer is no, that’s fine, you are free to reject God. If your answer is yes then I would invite you to pray for God to show himself to you. I don’t believe anyone who would want fellowship with God, dies unsaved and so am confident that God would answer that prayer if asked with a sincere heart. 

Edited 16 November 2020 by Benguin

[Benguin]

28 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

If it's true that there's 'only one God', why are there a lot of religions and contrasting beliefs/disagreements to one another's religious beliefs?

Because people love their sin but intuitively believe in God, so create religions or belief systems that allow them to live in sin. 
 

 

[Guest Fktf]

13 minutes ago, Benguin said:

It’s not a threat at all. God loves us so much that he lets us choose whether we want a relationship with him. How could God be loving if he forced you to go to heaven and worship him when you didn’t want to? Hell is a place where you are separated from a relationship with God. The people who go there will be there through their own volition. Since God is the source of love, joy and hope, I can’t imagine hell being nice but heaven would be hell to someone who doesn’t want a relationship with God.

 

I always like to ask the following question to unbelievers as it highlights their worldview is more often than not based on their volition rather than intellect:

 

If you had irrefutable, undeniable, absolute proof that Christianity was true, would you become a Christian? 

 

if your answer is no, that’s fine, you are free to reject God. If your answer is yes then I would invite you to pray for God to show himself to you. I don’t believe anyone who would want fellowship with God, dies unsaved and so am confident that God would answer that prayer if asked with a sincere heart. 

Would you share your personal experience of this? 

 

Edit: genuinely trying to understand what this would look like, as I've always thought god doesn't reveal himself - hence it is a faith

Edited 16 November 2020 by Fktf

[Benguin]

1 minute ago, Fktf said:

Would you share your personal experience of this?

I grew up in a secular family. I went to a Church of England primary so sung hymns and had a vague understanding of religion but was pretty much always an atheist. 
 

When I was 18 I became more devout in my atheism and loved debating which people I considered to be small minded idiots. This carried on well into my 20’s. It’s actually quite funny that I’ve said pretty much everything that’s been said to me in this thread and perhaps some more mean things to some poor Christians out there in the past.

 

As I approached my thirties I realised I had been living in an echo chamber and not actually giving any respect to opposing view points. This was realised via politics rather than theology but opened me up to actually thinking for myself and putting in the leg work so to speak.
 

When I got interested in the evidence for Christianity, I was shocked to discover that a lot of my assumptions were either inaccurate or just plain wrong. I only discovered that the bible wasn’t just the one book but actually a collection of numerous documents a few years ago for example.

 

After I looked at a lot of philosophical arguments, historical evidence etc I wasn’t convinced but certainly had enough to think hang on a minute, this might be true.

 

I then struggled with this for a couple of years. God kept nudging me but I was stubborn because I was a young male who loved drinking, gambling and chasing skirt. I had no intention of becoming a Christian because that meant I’d have to give up everything I love.

 

I was then struck by this overwhelming feeling that wouldn’t go away. A feeling that I knew God was real, I knew my son was wrong and I knew I needed a saviour. 
 

I prayed and God has now revealed himself to me in numerous ways. 
 

Christianity is about relation with God not following rules. Salvation supplants sin through sanctification and the overwhelming transformation in my life and other Christians I have met is irrefutable and undeniable to me. 
 

This year I watched my Dad vomit excrement as he slowly died of stomach cancer at age 57 and I encountered my first real test of faith. The overwhelming love and peace that Jesus gave me in dealing with this is undeniable to me.

 

My life has gone from being a desperately lonely, deeply depressed, smoking, drinking gambling addict to being betrothed to a wonderful woman, involved in a loving community at church and in a deep intimate relationship with God, who has sustained me through things that would surely have resulted in my suicide without him.

 

if you truly do not know God but want too, get down on your knees and pray! 

 

 Revelation 3-20

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me

 

[Facecloth]

6 hours ago, Benguin said:

When I was 18 I became more devout in my atheism and loved debating which people I considered to be small minded idiots. 

 

As I approached my thirties I realised I had been living in an echo chamber.

 

You do realise, you come across as having gone full circle.

[Tomassi]

7 hours ago, Fktf said:

Would you share your personal experience of this? 

 

Edit: genuinely trying to understand what this would look like, as I've always thought god doesn't reveal himself - hence it is a faith

Sorry to interrupt, I just wanted to encourage you to read the Gospel of Mark, see Jesus for yourself. The person and the work of Jesus shows that God has revealed himself in history at the right time (for when Jesus would fulfill all the prophesies about himself in the Old Testament). Check out the sort of things he said - especially against the religious leaders of the day, and why he performed certain miracles. It's only 16 chapters and takes about 90 minutes at slow pace to read ☺️

[ozleicester]

7 hours ago, Benguin said:

Because people love their sin but intuitively believe in God, so create religions or belief systems that allow them to live in sin. 
 

 

Dont go in there i said.. dont! ... you stand to gain nothing from going in.. sigh and yet here i am. 

 

How do you know YOURS is the one god.. and all of the THOUSANDS of others are wrong?

Maybe you are just excusing your sin by inventing your own god?

[Izzy]

Going church just ain’t the same these days

 

 

Edited 17 November 2020 by Izzy

[Benguin]

1 hour ago, ozleicester said:

Dont go in there i said.. dont! ... you stand to gain nothing from going in.. sigh and yet here i am. 

 

How do you know YOURS is the one god.. and all of the THOUSANDS of others are wrong?

Maybe you are just excusing your sin by inventing your own god?

I have responded to this question is this thread. I later, maybe two pages back posted a video from the late Ravi Zacharias. I’d encourage you to watch that as he far better articulates why Jesus is more believable on a general note. For my personal testimony though, see above.

[Guest Fktf]

9 hours ago, Benguin said:

 

 

I prayed and God has now revealed himself to me in numerous ways. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Tomassi said:

Sorry to interrupt, I just wanted to encourage you to read the Gospel of Mark, see Jesus for yourself. The person and the work of Jesus shows that God has revealed himself in history at the right time (for when Jesus would fulfill all the prophesies about himself in the Old Testament). Check out the sort of things he said - especially against the religious leaders of the day, and why he performed certain miracles. It's only 16 chapters and takes about 90 minutes at slow pace to read ☺️

I was raised Christian, baptised, confirmed - if the bible was enough, I guess I'd have not 'lost my faith' (although I can never be sure I had faith in the first place, or was just going along with the family way).

 

I guess I was asking about personal experiences to because I've never felt the presence Benguin mentions, and can't comprehend what sort of situation it would happen in.

[Benguin]

8 minutes ago, Fktf said:

 

I was raised Christian, baptised, confirmed - if the bible was enough, I guess I'd have not 'lost my faith' (although I can never be sure I had faith in the first place, or was just going along with the family way).

 

I guess I was asking about personal experiences to because I've never felt the presence Benguin mentions, and can't comprehend what sort of situation it would happen in.

Go back to the question I asked earlier. If you had absolute proof it was true, would you become a Christian? 

[Crinklyfox]

10 hours ago, Benguin said:

Because people love their sin but intuitively believe in God, so create religions or belief systems that allow them to live in sin. 
 

 

I have previously made an effort to stay out of this thread but feel that your statement needs a response.

 

I accept that many people have a faith, and to those people belief in God may seem intuitive, but I do not believe this to be the case.  Most societies have a faith, and children are either instructed or indoctrinated (depending upon your point of view) into the religion of their society as part of their upbringing.  They accept this as a child accepts statements made by its parents and teachers.  So in my view religion is not intuitive, but is imprinted upon the young.  I make no comment as to the validity of the various faiths of this world, only that  they are generally established and maintained in society in this manner.  It is relatively rare that a person chooses a faith not inherent in their society.  

 

Religious beliefs have been created through the ages, in many (but definitely not all) cases as a way of giving meaning to those things that were not known to the societies that created them.   I am not aiming this comment at any religion in particular, or proposing that any religion is without basis, but noting this as what I believe to be a historical fact.  I have not seen evidence that religions in general were established to allow people to live in sin, but am not a scholar of religious history so cannot state this with certainty.

[Tomassi]

32 minutes ago, Fktf said:

 

I was raised Christian, baptised, confirmed - if the bible was enough, I guess I'd have not 'lost my faith' (although I can never be sure I had faith in the first place, or was just going along with the family way).

 

I guess I was asking about personal experiences to because I've never felt the presence Benguin mentions, and can't comprehend what sort of situation it would happen in.

Oh apologies mate I didn't know your background. You said baptism and later confirmation so I'm guessing baptised as a baby and confirmed later means Catholic or Anglican? Please correct me if I am wrong. It's an interesting thing 'feeling the presence of God' and different for every believer I guess. Pentecostal churches seem to have a very heavy emphasis on this, whereas Presbyterians are very conservative and the other end of the scale, with many denominations in between. I believe that God is omnipresent so His presence is everywhere, and Jesus said where two or three gather in my name there I will be also. The Bible says Jesus is God, so He is everywhere in the Spirit of Christ. It's just His presence is made more aware when Christians gather through praise, prayer,  preaching of His Word etc. Hence why He said that.  In that sense, that's when I feel Gods presence, although I know He is always there because He claims to be omnipresent even when sometimes I don't feel like he is. I don't always trust my feelings, but I trust God's Word on this.

 

I'm glad you opened up about your background. Going to Church, reading the Bible, baptism, communion, praying etc are all good things, but it doesn't make someone a Christian. Only faith in Jesus and what He did for us makes a Christian. Which makes Christianity different to other religions as we can't get to God through good works. It's the Life of Jesus, transferred on to us through faith that he died for our sins that makes us alive in Christ (called Justification - justified before God because of Christ) and then we strive to live a life pleasing to God. We will mess up, but God works in us (sanctification) so God saves us through Jesus, grows us in Jesus, and gives us eternal life because of Jesus.

 

Romans 10:9 - because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
 

Plenty of people say I believe in Jesus, but a real faith strives for Jesus. Jesus had many fans in his time, but not many followers. A lot of his fans fell away. I would strongly encourage you that if there's any interest at all in reading Jesus for yourself, go through the gospel accounts again, ask questions of the text like why did he perform certain miracles, why did he say things to certain people etc, and find out if Jesus really is who he says he is.

 

Peace to you and thank you for sharing.

[Mickyblueeyes]

12 hours ago, Benguin said:

Because people love their sin but intuitively believe in God, so create religions or belief systems that allow them to live in sin. 
 

 

But then how do you know your belief system within your religion is correct ? Don’t get me wrong, I do believe in god but I always with anyone who suggests they follow a pure form of their religion. I’d argue no one truly follows a pure form of religion anymore. 
 

Christianity has many different strands. Catholic’s for example follow the pope - a concept not advocated by Jesus. 
 

Islam has the Shia and Sunni divide and different sects within those two divides. Again, both concepts differ on opinion which didn’t come from the prophet Muhammed or his immediate followers.

 

Judaism has different sects from Orthodox to Zionism. 
 

Hinduism is made up of a cast system.

 

Sikhism has different sects arising from different interpretation of the different Gurus. 
 

What I’m saying is that thought process is quite limited. Saying you’re right or following “god” the “superior power” in its truest form is challenged by those within the Christian faith who hold different beliefs. You cannot question those outside of your faith system unless your own house is in order. No religion nor belief system has a house fully in order. 
 

The belief in god is faith and faith should never be questioned in my opinion. Ones own belief has nothing to do with their preference for sin. It’s just faith.

[Benguin]

21 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

But then how do you know your belief system within your religion is correct ? Don’t get me wrong, I do believe in god but I always with anyone who suggests they follow a pure form of their religion. I’d argue no one truly follows a pure form of religion anymore. 
 

Christianity has many different strands. Catholic’s for example follow the pope - a concept not advocated by Jesus. 
 

Islam has the Shia and Sunni divide and different sects within those two divides. Again, both concepts differ on opinion which didn’t come from the prophet Muhammed or his immediate followers.

 

Judaism has different sects from Orthodox to Zionism. 
 

Hinduism is made up of a cast system.

 

Sikhism has different sects arising from different interpretation of the different Gurus. 
 

What I’m saying is that thought process is quite limited. Saying you’re right or following “god” the “superior power” in its truest form is challenged by those within the Christian faith who hold different beliefs. You cannot question those outside of your faith system unless your own house is in order. No religion nor belief system has a house fully in order. 
 

The belief in god is faith and faith should never be questioned in my opinion. Ones own belief has nothing to do with their preference for sin. It’s just faith.

 

A lot of what you said is true but Christianity teaches us that we are ALL sinners. What makes Christianity unique is that we are reconciled to God through Jesus Christ by grace and grace alone. Other religions claim that we need to be good to get to heaven and our good works must outweigh our bad. As a Christian I am not better than anyone else who follows any other belief, I am still a sinner and I am still far short of the glory of God.

 

When I say people love their sin I am not saying that other belief systems are more sinful or more tolerant of sin but rather that they teach people that they can defeat their sin by good works. Christianity says this is not possible. Sin was defeated by Christ on the cross. 

[Babylon]

13 hours ago, Benguin said:

I always like to ask the following question to unbelievers as it highlights their worldview is more often than not based on their volition rather than intellect:

 

If you had irrefutable, undeniable, absolute proof that Christianity was true, would you become a Christian? 

 

if your answer is no, that’s fine, you are free to reject God. If your answer is yes then I would invite you to pray for God to show himself to you. I don’t believe anyone who would want fellowship with God, dies unsaved and so am confident that God would answer that prayer if asked with a sincere heart. 

And how does he answer exactly, with a sign?

 

You're either the sort of person who reads horoscopes and says "wow that's got it spot on" or you are the sort that says "well of course they got it spot on, they purposely said something vague enough to cover off pretty much everyone". 

 

You'll either see a knock at the door as a sign, or you'll just see it as a knock at the door. You're either looking or you aren't. 

[Houdini Logic]

So... what makes God so great?

Even if there is a God... why should I care?

[Guest Fktf]

3 hours ago, Benguin said:

Go back to the question I asked earlier. If you had absolute proof it was true, would you become a Christian? 

I can't see how anyone, or at least the vast majority, would say no. But I guess what I'm trying to get at is, what would does absolute proof actually look like?

[Benguin]

Just now, Houdini Logic said:

So... what makes God so great?

Even if there is a God... why should I care?

You don’t have to care. God invites us all into a relationship with him through grace bought by Jesus Christ. It’s an invitation, not a demand. 

[Houdini Logic]

It was a genuine question

Edited 17 November 2020 by Houdini Logic

[Benguin]

Just now, Fktf said:

I can't see how anyone, or at least the vast majority, would say no. But I guess what I'm trying to get at is, what would does absolute proof actually look like?

What would be absolute proof to you? 

[Benguin]

Just now, Houdini Logic said:

It was a genuine question

I gave a genuine answer. I personally love God and the transformative power and grace. I understand though that many people do not love God and choose to live for themselves, that’s their decision, not mine.

[Guest Fktf]

1 minute ago, Benguin said:

What would be absolute proof to you? 

Genuinely no idea, because I've never experienced anything close to the feeling the presence you talk about. I can't even imagine it, because it feels so remote to the reality I perceive

[Babylon]

5 minutes ago, Benguin said:

What would be absolute proof to you? 

This thread vanishing forever. 

[Benguin]

36 minutes ago, Babylon said:

And how does he answer exactly, with a sign?

 

You're either the sort of person who reads horoscopes and says "wow that's got it spot on" or you are the sort that says "well of course they got it spot on, they purposely said something vague enough to cover off pretty much everyone". 

 

You'll either see a knock at the door as a sign, or you'll just see it as a knock at the door. You're either looking or you aren't. 

I can’t speak for how he answers to others, only how he answered to me. What I can say is that if you genuinely seek him, he will reveal himself.