Religion

[Dunge]

1 minute ago, Benguin said:

Do you know that? 

I don’t know anything. And that’s kind of the point. Subjective morality is organised by people who don’t know and are trying to do the best they can regardless of that lack of knowledge. But that doesn’t make it less valid. (Probably a word I should have used earlier.)

[Benguin]

Just now, Dunge said:

I don’t know anything. And that’s kind of the point. Subjective morality is organised by people who don’t know and are trying to do the best they can regardless of that lack of knowledge. But that doesn’t make it less valid. (Probably a word I should have used earlier.)

So there are no absolutes in your life and you don’t know anything? Forgive me for sounding rude but how do you even go about life? 

[whitlock]

31 minutes ago, Benguin said:

How can you possibly say I’d reject Christianity in Palestine?

 

1. how does being born thousands of miles from the origin of a religion make me more or less likely to believe said religion? If location was a determining factor, why is the origin of the religion not the epicentre of it in terms of followers?

 

2. How do you know God hasn’t placed people in the right place to choose the path that suits their volition? Maybe if I didn’t want to be a Christian god would have put me somewhere else.

 

Can you give some evidence of unity being more prevalent outside of religion? Countries ruled by religion seen less divided than the free world. 
 

Yes I have and it’s stupid.

Can you give evidence that God has put you 'somewhere'? 

I'm sure it was more to do with your parents... sperm.. etc. etc.

[Benguin]

5 minutes ago, Line-X said:

I can't - which is why I phrased it 'likely' - and it's highly likely if you were born and bred there you would.

 

1. You appear to have completely missed the point. Read my post again.

2. An unfalsifiable argument and logical fallacy. The onus does not lie with me or any other party to establish a negative or an absent. I suggest that you familarise yourself with the concept of Russel's teapot.

 

What I can say is that religion has cultural and geographical origins. It's possible that if you were born and raised in rural Japan you would very probably follow shintoism. If you were born in the central Tarai of Nepal you would likely be Buddhist. If you were born and raised in Tehran you would likely not only be of Muslim faith, but almost definitely Shi'a. If you had been born into one of the 13th century nomadic Tribes of what is now the Eastern Steppe of Mongolia during the Mongol Empire, you would have unquestionably adhered to a shamanistic practice or Tengrism. 

 

A theocracy perhaps.

 

Every major religion is and has been historically divided by schism an in fighting. Your question regarding unity in the secular world is irrelevant and a non-sequitur. My observation was simply that religion can be highly divisive which is impossible to refute. 

 

 

 

Where do I claim that religion is unifying? I don’t believe unity will ever be achieved this side of heaven, otherwise we’d already be in heaven. 

What point have I missed, you’re saying religion is based on ones location/culture. I’m saying so what. Christianity was born in Israel and has, as the bible says, spread over the world. The bible teaches that no one will be without excuse. So I believe everyone will encounter the gospel at some point in their lives. Sending missionaries to far flung tribes would be the worst thing we could do as Christians if they had an excuse.

 

[Dunge]

2 minutes ago, Benguin said:

So there are no absolutes in your life and you don’t know anything? Forgive me for sounding rude but how do you even go about life? 

The best I can given the uncertainty, knowing that what I do has meaning to me and those around me. If that ultimately means nothing, so be it. But I figure better to attempt to do right by people rather than not. If it makes other people happy, that gives my experience meaning right now if nothing else. And I can’t control what comes after (unless Farscape is to be believed!)

If you find certainty in religion and that works for you, I’m not criticising. I’m not an atheist, despite my debate. I’d only flag up if it’s declared to be superior. Because, to me, as an appreciator of and believer in science, that needs evidence.

[Benguin]

3 minutes ago, whitlock said:

Can you give evidence that God has put you 'somewhere'? 

I'm sure it was more to do with your parents... sperm.. etc. etc.

I don’t need to. My evidence for that is simply my belief in God. I’m not making a positive statement that I need to back up but rather giving a possibility to a positive statement which op needs to back up.

[Benguin]

1 minute ago, Dunge said:

The best I can given the uncertainty, knowing that what I do has meaning to me and those around me. If that ultimately means nothing, so be it. But I figure better to attempt to do right by people rather than not. If it makes other people happy, that gives my experience meaning right now if nothing else. And I can’t control what comes after (unless Farscape is to be believed!)

If you find certainty in religion and that works for you, I’m not criticising. I’m not an atheist, despite my debate. I’d only flag up if it’s declared to be superior. Because, to me, as an appreciator of and believer in science, that needs evidence.

You just said you don’t know anything, yet make lots of truth claims. 

[Dunge]

Well, you’re kind of taking my words literally in saying I don’t know anything! Obviously I know that 2+2=4, “To be or not to be” is a line from Hamlet and the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything is 42. But as for questions like “is there a god”, “what comes after death” and “are we in the matrix” - No, I don’t know.

 

Does that matter?

[AKCJ]

He signed for Spurs didn't he? Good little left back.

[Benguin]

8 minutes ago, Dunge said:

Well, you’re kind of taking my words literally in saying I don’t know anything! Obviously I know that 2+2=4, “To be or not to be” is a line from Hamlet and the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything is 42. But as for questions like “is there a god”, “what comes after death” and “are we in the matrix” - No, I don’t know.

 

Does that matter?

And how do you know things? 

[Kingleicester]

Religion is bullshit 

[Tomassi]

This thread has been a fascinating read, almost to the point of Benguin vs the foxestalk world!

 

I don't normally post much nowadays but did back when foxestalk began. I was in a pretty bad way back then, but 9 years ago I became a Christian after reading God's Word and was convinced that Jesus is God. No Church background, no firm belief prior to this and no one trying to coax me into it, although I was always fascinated by religions, especially Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Sikhism and Huduism, amongst others. But it was Jesus and what He did in his time on earth that convinced me, and since becoming a Christian his teachings have really helped me in the way that I live.

 

I've been studying Church History for the past couple of years. What I found interesting was that the original Christians were called followers of The Way (Jesus said I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through me), and did originally meet in synagogues along with the Jews. But the Jews kept complaining to the Roman authorities that followers of The Way were not one of them. They got labelled Christians (Christ-followers) and the Romans declared them to be a Religio Illicita (an illegal religion). It became a really tough time to be a Christian from around AD 60 - 4th century as they were state persecuted until Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity. Literally thousands of Christians would have their heads chopped off to the point that executioner's blades were getting blunt too often. Also Emperor Nero had Christians being burned alive to light up his gardens. Did these early Christians complain and argue? No, they overcame their enemies by loving them, even when the enemy was killing them. Why? Because they were following how Jesus lived his life, being obedient to God, even to the point that he went to die on the cross for the enemy, on the way shouting - forgive them Father for they do not know what they are doing.

 

Yes I believe God is just and will bring justice to all, but I also believe God is gracious. We've all told lies, some of us have stolen, some of us have treated people badly (I know, I'm guilty of those things), and if God was to give justice for evil right now, we would all be in trouble because we've broken His laws (sinned) which doesnt just affect our relationship with God, but also with other people. The wages of sin is death. But God is also loving, he sent Jesus to pay for our sin, so that all who believe in Him will have their sins cleansed and be made right with God. No religious works get you there, only Jesus. (I'm sure a lot of you have heard this before).

 

The miracles are great and all that, but the stories I love the most are where we see how much Jesus cares for people. A woman was caught in adultery and a crowd was about to stone her. Jesus said He who is without sin cast the first stone. One by one, they all dropped their stones and walked away. But there was one without sin - Jesus himself! But he would not cast the first stone. Instead he said - go and sin no more - an encouragement to live a life pleasing to God after he essentially saved her.

 

I share this because this is the Religion thread. I've seen that there are some on here who are genuinely interested in things to do with Religion, and perhaps even Jesus. Jesus is definitely one of the most controversial people to have ever lived, but if he is who he claimed to be - God the Son, it is definitely worth checking him out. I'm not here to argue, and I know many on here do not align with my beliefs, but if you are reading this are are genuinely interested to know more or even to chat with things you find hard to believe about Jesus, please send me a message. Love and peace to you all.

 

 

[Dunge]

3 minutes ago, Benguin said:

And how do you know things? 

Learning, memory, logic. I don’t really understand the significance of the question to be honest.

[SpacedX]

2 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Where do I claim that religion is unifying? 
 

You suggested that countries ruled by religion tend to be more unified and subsequently invited discussion of disunity in the secular world. 

 

4 minutes ago, Benguin said:

I don’t believe unity will ever be achieved this side of heaven, otherwise we’d already be in heaven. 

And ultimately, that is why superstition and metaphysics are so difficult to debate, because they is based upon, faith belief and ultimately supposition and consequently unfalsifiable. 

 

Also, if I were of a Christian persuasion I would be inclined to regard purgatory as here on earth. I've never fully understood argument that if there was a God, then he/she/it should intervene and prevent natural disasters and atrocities. We inhabit a chaotic world which we are given free reign over as humanity following 'the fall'. Were I of the Christian faith then I would no doubt subscribe to the same view.

 

14 minutes ago, Benguin said:

What point have I missed, you’re saying religion is based on ones location/culture. I’m saying so what. Christianity was born in Israel and has, as the bible says, spread over the world. The bible teaches that no one will be without excuse. 

Prevailing cultural and geographies are a strong determiner of religious inclination. That's all. 

 

16 minutes ago, Benguin said:

So I believe everyone will encounter the gospel at some point in their lives. 

Tell that to the Jawara people of the Andaman Islands. Good luck with that.

 

A devout Muslim will express similar beliefs regarding the Recitation, a Hindu, the Vedas. 

 

Wait...

17 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Sending missionaries to far flung tribes would be the worst thing we could do as Christians if they had an excuse.

 

...So actually, not everyone will encounter the Gospel at some point in their lives. You could quite conceivably have been born one of them.

 

Remote tribes and settlements aside, assuming that you were a Shi'a Muslim living in suburban Tehran or a Buddhist in the Kathmandu valley why would you necessarily give two shits about another religion's scripture or liturgy? 

[Dunge]

2 minutes ago, Tomassi said:

This thread has been a fascinating read, almost to the point of Benguin vs the foxestalk world!

 

I don't normally post much nowadays but did back when foxestalk began. I was in a pretty bad way back then, but 9 years ago I became a Christian after reading God's Word and was convinced that Jesus is God. No Church background, no firm belief prior to this and no one trying to coax me into it, although I was always fascinated by religions, especially Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Sikhism and Huduism, amongst others. But it was Jesus and what He did in his time on earth that convinced me, and since becoming a Christian his teachings have really helped me in the way that I live.

 

I've been studying Church History for the past couple of years. What I found interesting was that the original Christians were called followers of The Way (Jesus said I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through me), and did originally meet in synagogues along with the Jews. But the Jews kept complaining to the Roman authorities that followers of The Way were not one of them. They got labelled Christians (Christ-followers) and the Romans declared them to be a Religio Illicita (an illegal religion). It became a really tough time to be a Christian from around AD 60 - 4th century as they were state persecuted until Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity. Literally thousands of Christians would have their heads chopped off to the point that executioner's blades were getting blunt too often. Also Emperor Nero had Christians being burned alive to light up his gardens. Did these early Christians complain and argue? No, they overcame their enemies by loving them, even when the enemy was killing them. Why? Because they were following how Jesus lived his life, being obedient to God, even to the point that he went to die on the cross for the enemy, on the way shouting - forgive them Father for they do not know what they are doing.

 

Yes I believe God is just and will bring justice to all, but I also believe God is gracious. We've all told lies, some of us have stolen, some of us have treated people badly (I know, I'm guilty of those things), and if God was to give justice for evil right now, we would all be in trouble because we've broken His laws (sinned) which doesnt just affect our relationship with God, but also with other people. The wages of sin is death. But God is also loving, he sent Jesus to pay for our sin, so that all who believe in Him will have their sins cleansed and be made right with God. No religious works get you there, only Jesus. (I'm sure a lot of you have heard this before).

 

The miracles are great and all that, but the stories I love the most are where we see how much Jesus cares for people. A woman was caught in adultery and a crowd was about to stone her. Jesus said He who is without sin cast the first stone. One by one, they all dropped their stones and walked away. But there was one without sin - Jesus himself! But he would not cast the first stone. Instead he said - go and sin no more - an encouragement to live a life pleasing to God after he essentially saved her.

 

I share this because this is the Religion thread. I've seen that there are some on here who are genuinely interested in things to do with Religion, and perhaps even Jesus. Jesus is definitely one of the most controversial people to have ever lived, but if he is who he claimed to be - God the Son, it is definitely worth checking him out. I'm not here to argue, and I know many on here do not align with my beliefs, but if you are reading this are are genuinely interested to know more or even to chat with things you find hard to believe about Jesus, please send me a message. Love and peace to you all.

 

 

I think it’s worth noting that a lot of what you put there has formed the basis of modern/Western morality. Whatever the future of Christianity, the message of “turn the other cheek” will live on.

[Benguin]

1 minute ago, Dunge said:

Learning, memory, logic. I don’t really understand the significance of the question to be honest.

So you use your subjective reasoning to know stuff right? and don’t believe there is an absolute standard of truth or logic to measure it by? 

[Dunge]

1 minute ago, Benguin said:

So you use your subjective reasoning to know stuff right? and don’t believe there is an absolute standard of truth or logic to measure it by? 

Truth can be found in science, of which maths is a branch. Logic can be built up through that. And memory, although it can trick, still reports truth. And I know because I’ve been in pub quizzes. :-)

 

But morality? Right and wrong? Generally it’s subjective as far as I see. Granted there are certain scenarios such as murdering babies (if we must go there again) where the vast, vast majority would agree it to be wrong. But that is still the opinion of a group in society. And I’m comfortable with that.

Although if part of the core of your belief is that we’re all sinners who need to be saved, I can understand why the above would be concerning to you. 
 

Anyhow, I’ve been here long enough for today so I’ll bid you a good evening. :-)

[Tomassi]

1 minute ago, Dunge said:

I think it’s worth noting that a lot of what you put there has formed the basis of modern/Western morality. Whatever the future of Christianity, the message of “turn the other cheek” will live on.

Absolutely.

 

It's also fascinating what happened in the Reformation across Europe in the 16th century. The Renaissance Humanists just before the Reformation time were crying out 'AD FONTES - to the sources' and heaps of scholars looked to original texts of ancient works, like Seneca, Virgil, Cicero, and of course Augustine, along with checking out the Scriptures in the original Greek and Hebrew. The reason I say this? The Church had massively gone away from the Scriptures including their Latin Vulgate translation which changed the meaning of certain texts from the original. The recovery of the Scriptures in their original language meant a recovery of true Christianity. Brave people like Martin Luther, John Calvin and Thomas Crammer (who is probably a massive unsung hero) stood up for the truth, and in turn swathes around Europe were retaught the teachings of Jesus, God's Grace and love, and so on, which has been the basis of our Western society today. Dairmaid McCulloch, an agnostic, writes a fantastic book on this period and is well worth reading, especially because of his lack of Christian bias.

[Carl the Llama]

I started typing a post about the morality thing last night but it was a bit shit so I left it, thankfully @Dahnsouff has already pretty well covered my thoughts in more elegant terms than I was coming up with.

 

@Benguin I think one big problem with your arguments is the recurring theme that God is an absolute measurement of goodness.  How does that work?  Is there some 'God scale' by which all Christians can objectively measure and apply an empirical number to the ethical value of an action?  If not, how is God objectively the absolute measure of good?

[foxile5]

2 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Not trying to dig you out but I don’t understand this. My fault, could you elaborate ? 

They stopped following Christian values very easily. Their investment in 'do unto others as you would they do unto you' wasn't absolute. They only wanted the salvation of self without any of the love thy neighbour stuff. 

[yorkie1999]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

I started typing a post about the morality thing last night but it was a bit shit so I left it, thankfully @Dahnsouff has already pretty well covered my thoughts in more elegant terms than I was coming up with.

 

@Benguin I think one big problem with your arguments is the recurring theme that God is an absolute measurement of goodness.  How does that work?  Is there some 'God scale' by which all Christians can objectively measure and apply an empirical number to the ethical value of an action?  If not, how is God objectively the absolute measure of good?

It's all about the existence of god and moral values and ethics , so if you sell your house and give the money to someone who doesn't have anything, that's a top ranking of goodness, which is what god would do, so therefore if god would do that, then he must exist, if he wouldn't do that then he doesn't exist, so when we give to charity, or help an old lady cross the road, we have acknowledged that god exists, but the problem comes when people like darwin stick their noses in and come up with stuff like survival of the fittest which gives an explanation as to the ethics of killing someone.   It all comes from the 10 commandments and philosopher's over thinking things,  I THINK.

[Parafox]

22 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

It's all about the existence of god and moral values and ethics , so if you sell your house and give the money to someone who doesn't have anything, that's a top ranking of goodness, which is what god would do, so therefore if god would do that, then he must exist, if he wouldn't do that then he doesn't exist, so when we give to charity, or help an old lady cross the road, we have acknowledged that god exists, but the problem comes when people like darwin stick their noses in and come up with stuff like survival of the fittest which gives an explanation as to the ethics of killing someone.   It all comes from the 10 commandments and philosopher's over thinking things,  I THINK.

I acknowledge that makes me a kind and thoughtful, considerate person but not necessarily a believer in a God. In my (ex) job, I helped and gave a lot of myself to those that needed my skills, knowledge and my attention. I never for one minute considered I was doing God's will. It was my job to do that. God will look at me as a non-believer as I renounce his existence. My friend, who is a Catholic, tells me I will go to Hell unless I acknowledge God's existence. That to me feels like a threat that I will suffer unless I believe and that makes no sense to me if God is all forgiving.

[UpTheLeagueFox]

5 hours ago, Buce said:

Dunno, but it hasn't taken him long to invoke Godwin's Law...

I didn't know what Godwin's Law was so Googled it.

Every day is a school day 

[z-layrex]

3 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

I started typing a post about the morality thing last night but it was a bit shit so I left it, thankfully @Dahnsouff has already pretty well covered my thoughts in more elegant terms than I was coming up with.

 

@Benguin I think one big problem with your arguments is the recurring theme that God is an absolute measurement of goodness.  How does that work?  Is there some 'God scale' by which all Christians can objectively measure and apply an empirical number to the ethical value of an action?  If not, how is God objectively the absolute measure of good?

Don't they say God kills far more people in the Bible than Satan? I wouldn't know though.

[Wymsey]

If it's true that there's 'only one God', why are there a lot of religions and contrasting beliefs/disagreements to one another's religious beliefs?