Religion

[Babylon]

17 minutes ago, Benguin said:

I don’t think the “people believe to escape their sad lives” argument is based on evidence at all.

Not sure a believer in god is in any position to lecture on evidence based arguments. 

 

 

[Carl the Llama]

1 hour ago, Benguin said:

I feel I have answered that question several times in this thread. 
 

The transformative power, love and grace are some of the things I love about God. For a more in depth look at what that meant to me have a look at my testimony a few pages back. 

Apologies if I've missed it, could you link me the comment where you explain it in terms that aren't vague and wishy washy?

[Houdini Logic]

1 hour ago, Benguin said:

I feel I have answered that question several times in this thread. 
 

The transformative power, love and grace are some of the things I love about God. For a more in depth look at what that meant to me have a look at my testimony a few pages back. 

I've been through 15 pages now and you certainly haven't answered this. Your testimony is also very personal and subjective - there is nothing there about what makes god so special and why people should form a relationship with him/her

Edited 17 November 2020 by Houdini Logic

[Benguin]

18 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Not sure a believer in god is in any position to lecture on evidence based arguments. 

 

 

Not lecturing at all. Just think it’s a weak and unsubstantiated argument. 
 

Does your worldview ground a concept of absolute truth in order for you to measure evidence by? 

[Carl the Llama]

I appreciate I probably come off as ardently anti God in this thread, that's not the case I'm actually undecided on that one, but what I am sure of is that none of our major religions represent them.  Having been brought up going to Church I don't believe that a God who craves sincere worship would be pleased to look down at organised Churches where a group of people sit in silence for an hour, occasionally speaking up to repeat another person's words in dull monotone. Very sincere that.  The real quiz is what happens outside of the services in our dealings with nature and other human beings, at least if I've understood scripture correctly.  So I jacked in organised religion and just try not to be a dick to people.  If God exists and that's acceptable to them, great, if not then heaven's filled with centuries of dead sycophants I won't get on with anyway so it's probably not the best place to spend eternity.

[Benguin]

3 minutes ago, Houdini Logic said:

I've been through 15 pages now and you certainly haven't answered this. Your testimony is also very personal and subjective - there is nothing there about what makes god so special and why people should form a relationship with him/her

Are you asking me to provide proof God is objectively special to everyone? Because if you are, I haven’t claimed that nor do I believe it.  If you don’t think God is special, that’s fine.Relation with God is a choice and most people choose to live of the world where they can sin and rule over themselves. God in his glory, leaves people to walk the path they choose. 

[Carl the Llama]

@Benguin We all know you're a pious man who's guaranteed peace in eternity, but here's an interesting thought:

If you had a bit of bad luck in your younger life and died before you were old enough to shake off your anti-religious views do you think you'd have been sent to hell?  Even though you're ultimately the same jumble of atoms that would've found God eventually had they not been cut down in their cynical prime?

[Houdini Logic]

3 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Are you asking me to provide proof God is objectively special to everyone? Because if you are, I haven’t claimed that nor do I believe it.  If you don’t think God is special, that’s fine.Relation with God is a choice and most people choose to live of the world where they can sin and rule over themselves. God in his glory, leaves people to walk the path they choose. 

No, not interested in proof whatsoever. Not interested in what people choose to do.

 

The question I'm asking is simple... what makes God great? Great enough that I should form a relationship with him/her?

 

[Benguin]

3 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

@Benguin We all know you're a pious man who's guaranteed peace in eternity, but here's an interesting thought:

If you had a bit of bad luck in your younger life and died before you were old enough to shake off your anti-religious views do you think you'd have been sent to hell?  Even though you're ultimately the same jumble of atoms that would've found God eventually had they not been cut down in their cynical prime?

Would never claim to be pious. I try to live my life for God but I am human and still sin from time to time.

 

I don’t think that’s a possibility, I believe in some form of the doctrine of election. (Not particularly keen to debate that outside of a Christian circle as it wouldn’t serve much purpose) 

[Benguin]

3 minutes ago, Houdini Logic said:

No, not interested in proof whatsoever. Not interested in what people choose to do.

 

The question I'm asking is simple... what makes God great? Great enough that I should form a relationship with him/her?

 

Because he will give you grace as a free gift and eternal life. 

[RobHawk]

1 hour ago, Benguin said:

Im sure you’ve asked this and I’ve answered already. Bare with me I’ll have a look, if not I’ll reply.

Nah, I asked who would win in a fight, Santa Vs jesus. Didn't get a response to that question either 🤣

[Houdini Logic]

15 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Because he will give you grace as a free gift and eternal life. 

Given everything I've seen in this life, I genuinely can't think of anything worse than eternal life.

Thank you for answering my questions and giving me your perspective.

[Benguin]

43 minutes ago, RobHawk said:

Nah, I asked who would win in a fight, Santa Vs jesus. Didn't get a response to that question either 🤣

 

On 18/07/2020 at 14:53, murphy said:

You also asked why belief in God was illogical, well there is a good example.  If God created life from amoeba and the whole grand design was to end up with humans 4bn years later by way of evolution is that logical?  Why not just create man and the animals in the first place?

 

And what role did dinosaurs play in this grand scheme?

 

And what about the early humans?  The neanderthals and others.  Where do they fit in?   At what point does God reveal himself and then why go into hiding after that?

 

Why even create a physical world in the first place with all of it's pain and disease when you already have a much nicer one in the spiritual world?

 

Do you see what I mean about it all being illogical?

 

I am not trying to mock religion or have a go at you, but as soon as you start to look at it with any kind of logic the thing just unravels.

 

On 18/07/2020 at 15:04, Benguin said:

1.  Well for a start, he might have done. I don't think we are in a position to say macroevolution is certain. Regardless I'm not sure how it is illogical if we evolved. 

2. I don't know and am not sure how dinosaurs make God's existence illogical. 

3. Again, I don't know but not sure how that goes against my worldview. 

4. I don't know what God's intentions are but the second part to this is dealt with pretty conclusively in the bible "original sin" I recommend Cs Lewis's mere christianity for a fun approach to this. 

5. no I don't? Do you? 

6. Can you show me? 

Apologies, it wasn't you. I knew someone had mentioned it. I didn't give much of an answer here but its essentially my view point. What do dinosaurs have to do with anything? Are you referring to the lack of dinosaurs in the Bible? My explanation for that would be 1. The bible is not an explicit history of life the universe and everything but rather God's work on why we (as humans are here and what God's plan for us is) 2. The bible may well have mentioned dinosaurs. In the book of Job (40 and 41) there are a couple of creatures that sound like dinosaurs to me. 

[murphy]

2 minutes ago, Benguin said:

 

 

Apologies, it wasn't you. I knew someone had mentioned it. I didn't give much of an answer here but its essentially my view point. What do dinosaurs have to do with anything? Are you referring to the lack of dinosaurs in the Bible? My explanation for that would be 1. The bible is not an explicit history of life the universe and everything but rather God's work on why we (as humans are here and what God's plan for us is) 2. The bible may well have mentioned dinosaurs. In the book of Job (40 and 41) there are a couple of creatures that sound like dinosaurs to me. 

It's not the lack of dinosaur references that seems illogical to me, it is the actual presence of dinosaurs wandering around for 165 million years before being asteroided to death.  How does that fit into any logical grand plan for humanity?   Anyway, do dogs go to heaven?  Please say yes.

 

 

[Carl the Llama]

3 minutes ago, Benguin said:

 

 

Apologies, it wasn't you. I knew someone had mentioned it. I didn't give much of an answer here but its essentially my view point. What do dinosaurs have to do with anything? Are you referring to the lack of dinosaurs in the Bible? My explanation for that would be 1. The bible is not an explicit history of life the universe and everything but rather God's work on why we (as humans are here and what God's plan for us is) 2. The bible may well have mentioned dinosaurs. In the book of Job (40 and 41) there are a couple of creatures that sound like dinosaurs to me. 

No there aren't, hippos, elephants, sure. There aren't dinosaurs in the Bible, they predate it by a few million years.

 

1 hour ago, Benguin said:

Would never claim to be pious. I try to live my life for God but I am human and still sin from time to time.

 

I don’t think that’s a possibility, I believe in some form of the doctrine of election. (Not particularly keen to debate that outside of a Christian circle as it wouldn’t serve much purpose) 

Ah yes, the free will of being a chosen one.  

[Pliskin]

Religion is nothing more than a fable that's got a bit out of hand... Prehistoric human's wandering around in their fur pant's looked up into the sky and had not got the tools, knowledge, logic or resources to explain the marvels of the universe simply worshiped what they saw.... It provided seasons, allowed crops to grow, enabled farming and enabled life to flow, thus creating a lasting bond between human's and the very idea of an all powerful being. This obsession with the sun, moon and stars and the linking of them to a greater being stuck for many many years, people interpretations changed and eventually these initial ideas evolved into religion. 

 

It is usually not something I ever regard as an important subject, and the very beliefs and morals that most religion's accept are both out of date and borderline insane. Stephen Fry put it beautifully when asked about the idea of God, describing the being as capricious, and he is right. 

 

It was simply an ancient method of explaining the unexplained, that has grown with different cultures as life evolved and manifested into modern day religion. And than exaggerated by one woman’s lie about an affair, declaring a virgin birth.....

 

My religion kicks on at 3pm (rarely) on a Saturday, and that's as far as my worshiping goes, apart from a fine New England IPA. 

Edited 17 November 2020 by Pliskin

[Benguin]

2 minutes ago, murphy said:

It's not the lack of dinosaur references that seems illogical to me, it is the actual presence of dinosaurs wandering around for 165 million years before being asteroided to death.  How does that fit into any logical grand plan for humanity?   Anyway, do dogs go to heaven?  Please say yes.

 

 

I don't know because I only know the part of the plan that is revealed to humanity in scripture. I'm sure there is a reason and I would speculate that it is in demonstration of God's glory but I don't know and who am I to question? Interestingly, the book of Job that I think might mention dinosaurs deals with this idea that who are we to question why God does something. (That's a Christian debate though so not worth getting into if you don't believe in God otherwise we'd end up going around in circles.

[SpacedX]

2 hours ago, Benguin said:

Bare with me I’ll have a look

As the priest said to the young chorister 

[Benguin]

2 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

No there aren't, hippos, elephants, sure. There aren't dinosaurs in the Bible, they predate it by a few million years.

 

Ah yes, the free will of being a chosen one.  

Forgive my obtuseness here but as opposed to the free will of being atoms in motion? 

[Benguin]

5 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

No there aren't, hippos, elephants, sure. There aren't dinosaurs in the Bible, they predate it by a few million years.

 

Ah yes, the free will of being a chosen one.  

Also, Job 40, 17 kinda goes against these being hippos or elephants. 

[murphy]

5 minutes ago, Benguin said:

I don't know because I only know the part of the plan that is revealed to humanity in scripture. I'm sure there is a reason and I would speculate that it is in demonstration of God's glory but I don't know and who am I to question? Interestingly, the book of Job that I think might mention dinosaurs deals with this idea that who are we to question why God does something. (That's a Christian debate though so not worth getting into if you don't believe in God otherwise we'd end up going around in circles.

Fair enough, although I would say that it's not that I 'don't believe in God' as if it were a choice, it's that I just can't.  I would like to, but I can't reconcile it with rationale and what we know about science, but that's another circular argument that has already been had in this thread.  

[Benguin]

1 minute ago, murphy said:

Fair enough, although I would say that it's not that I 'don't believe in God' as if it were a choice, it's that I just can't.  I would like to, but I can't reconcile it with rationale and what we know about science, but that's another circular argument that has already been had in this thread.  

Do you think YOU can’t reconcile it with what we know about science or that it CANT be reconciled with what we know about science? 

[murphy]

Just now, Benguin said:

Do you think YOU can’t reconcile it with what we know about science or that it CANT be reconciled with what we know about science? 

Me.

 

There are probably religious scientists but I would imagine they are few and far between.  Science makes a powerful case against religion but it doesn't disprove it.  A question for you though, if NASA found evidence of microbial life elsewhere in the solar system would that cause you to waver?

[Benguin]

1 minute ago, murphy said:

Me.

 

There are probably religious scientists but I would imagine they are few and far between.  Science makes a powerful case against religion but it doesn't disprove it.  A question for you though, if NASA found evidence of microbial life elsewhere in the solar system would that cause you to waver?

I think you’d be surprised how many scientists are religious but that doesn’t prove anything.

 

I think 20th and 21st century science has done much more to affirm God rather than the opposite. If we had this discussion in the 19th century, then scientific thought would have been harder to dispute. 
 

I genuinely believe that faith in God and science can be mutual. In fact I think the only scientific thing anyone has posted (might have been you) that I take a dissenting view on, is macro evolution. I just don’t think the evidence is there like in the case of micro evolution.

 

With the above being proved to be true on top of your question, my answer is no, it wouldn’t cause to waiver. There would need to be irrefutable proof that God does not exist for me to waiver, given that I believe I have received irrefutable proof of his existence. 
 

it would certainly make me reevaluate how life on other planets fits in with my worldview. 

[Benguin]

If you genuinely want to believe but can’t reconcile it with science I’d encourage you to reach out a pray for God to reconcile himself with science.