leicsmac Posted 8 April 2023 Share Posted 8 April 2023 2 minutes ago, Daggers said: So this does or this doesn’t have anything to do with Jesse Marsch? Should be the first interview question when he gets the post tbh. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban.spaceman Posted 8 April 2023 Share Posted 8 April 2023 9 hours ago, leicsmac said: Bumping this with related news: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65217437 It was never going to stop just at Roe v Wade, was it? 8 hours ago, leicsmac said: March for Life: "This action by the court will save lives and ensure that the health and safety of women and girls is not compromised for the sake of advancing a pro-abortion political agenda. "This is a significant victory for the doctors and medical associations we represent and more importantly, the health and safety of women and girls." Alliance Defending Freedom: “The FDA never had the authority to approve these hazardous drugs and remove important safeguards. "This is a significant victory for the doctors and medical associations we represent and, more importantly, the health and safety of women and girls.” ... that's a truly impressive amount of disingenuous and pretence in one statement, I have to say. The “Pro Life” ***** never were and never have been “Pro Life”. See their behaviour after school shootings and the recent Kansas anti-trans law. All they are is Pro Cruelty. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban.spaceman Posted 8 April 2023 Share Posted 8 April 2023 (In the name of God of course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban.spaceman Posted 13 June 2023 Share Posted 13 June 2023 Thoughts on this woman being jailed? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-65882169 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zear0 Posted 13 June 2023 Share Posted 13 June 2023 1 minute ago, urban.spaceman said: Thoughts on this woman being jailed? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-65882169 Very mixed ones. Obviously jailing women for having abortions is wrong, but what she did is negligent and would have caused the baby significant distress. Abortion can occur past the date she instigated it and is done differently. Whilst what she did was wrong, custodial sentence doesn't seem right at all. All I hope is that it's discussed appropriately and not used as a stick by each sides of the debate which I suspect it will. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban.spaceman Posted 13 June 2023 Share Posted 13 June 2023 Just now, Zear0 said: Very mixed ones. Obviously jailing women for having abortions is wrong, but what she did is negligent and would have caused the baby significant distress. Abortion can occur past the date she instigated it and is done differently. Whilst what she did was wrong, custodial sentence doesn't seem right at all. All I hope is that it's discussed appropriately and not used as a stick by each sides of the debate which I suspect it will. Same here. I've made my feelings on it being the woman's choice pretty clear in this thread but I have to say I find this case an uncomfortable read. My goddaughter was born at 28 weeks and is now a thriving 5 year old so I'm quite uneasy about a termination at 32-34 weeks except on serious medical grounds. Obviously she lied to get access to the pills but like you said, jailing her just feels wrong particularly as she had extenuating circumstances in her personal life and perhaps most notably, this happened right at the start of the pandemic too so she must have been in a lot of distress. Just feels like yet another failure of the "system" to help vulnerable people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovindil Posted 13 June 2023 Share Posted 13 June 2023 19 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said: Thoughts on this woman being jailed? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-65882169 Right decision to find her guilty, wrong punishment. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 13 June 2023 Share Posted 13 June 2023 54 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said: Thoughts on this woman being jailed? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-65882169 51 minutes ago, Zear0 said: Very mixed ones. Obviously jailing women for having abortions is wrong, but what she did is negligent and would have caused the baby significant distress. Abortion can occur past the date she instigated it and is done differently. Whilst what she did was wrong, custodial sentence doesn't seem right at all. All I hope is that it's discussed appropriately and not used as a stick by each sides of the debate which I suspect it will. I'd agree with the above. Right to bodily autonomy should be near sacrosanct unless one wants to appear like a massive hypocrite interested in controlling women, but at the same time there are procedures to minimise harm for such situations and this woman didn't follow them despite (it would seem) a reasonable window of opportunity to do so. Negligence is right, custodial sentence for it is wrong IMO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalFox Posted 13 June 2023 Share Posted 13 June 2023 Custodial sentence is unjust and simply cruel authoritarianism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny Posted 13 June 2023 Share Posted 13 June 2023 33 minutes ago, LiberalFox said: Custodial sentence is unjust and simply cruel authoritarianism. The judge has said that the custodial sentence was necessary as she lied at the first court hearing. Otherwise it would have been a suspended sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 13 June 2023 Share Posted 13 June 2023 15 minutes ago, kenny said: The judge has said that the custodial sentence was necessary as she lied at the first court hearing. Otherwise it would have been a suspended sentence. Then that should have been a matter for perverting the course of justice or somesuch. There shouldn't have been a custodial sentence directly related to her abortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nnfox Posted 13 June 2023 Share Posted 13 June 2023 45 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Then that should have been a matter for perverting the course of justice or somesuch. There shouldn't have been a custodial sentence directly related to her abortion. It doesn't really work like that. Anyone who pleads not guilty and then are found guilty should be prosecuted for perverting justice/perjury? The justice system would grind to a halt! The sentencing system rewards people for early guilty pleas as it's much quicker (and cheaper) to deal with. If you choose to take it to trial, that incentive diminishes. The judge in this case has to go by the sentencing guidelines and like they said, just because one group of people wanted there to be a lenient sentence, there could equally be another group who wanted a harsher sentence. If Foster's defence team believe the sentence is overly harsh, they could prepare an appeal which may well deliver a lesser sentence, but that will be delivered through a proper legal framework and objectively worked through - a much better way of arriving at a just sentence than having judges bend to peer pressure on individual cases, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 13 June 2023 Share Posted 13 June 2023 2 minutes ago, nnfox said: It doesn't really work like that. Anyone who pleads not guilty and then are found guilty should be prosecuted for perverting justice/perjury? The justice system would grind to a halt! The sentencing system rewards people for early guilty pleas as it's much quicker (and cheaper) to deal with. If you choose to take it to trial, that incentive diminishes. The judge in this case has to go by the sentencing guidelines and like they said, just because one group of people wanted there to be a lenient sentence, there could equally be another group who wanted a harsher sentence. If Foster's defence team believe the sentence is overly harsh, they could prepare an appeal which may well deliver a lesser sentence, but that will be delivered through a proper legal framework and objectively worked through - a much better way of arriving at a just sentence than having judges bend to peer pressure on individual cases, imo. I think I wasn't clear in my last post then. If the woman lied under oath then that's perverting the course of justice, which should be handled separately to the offence she has been convicted of here. Her lying under oath, as you say, shouldn't affect sentence for the offence she was arrested for. NB. I absolutely think that the sentence for this offence alone in this case is incredibly harsh and would certainly petition multiple MP's to re-examine the sentencing guidelines in this case. At no point whatsoever should a woman face jail time for exercising her right to bodily autonomy (even in cases where harm could have been avoided and there is negligence like this one), because that kind of punishment is hypocritical in the extreme and a chauvinist double standard that only affects women on the part of those who advocate for it, for reasons that have been extensively covered earlier in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxesDeb Posted 13 June 2023 Author Share Posted 13 June 2023 I absolutely believe that women have the right to terminate early term as yet unviable pregnancies, but I'm really not convinced we should be saying this doesn't deserve a jail sentence. Without the abortion pill the woman took there is every chance the baby would have been born alive, after all it's the pill that ends the life. If the baby had been born alive and well and then murdered after the birth would we not expect the mother to be given a prison sentence? Maybe I need a bit more time to think about this one.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalFox Posted 13 June 2023 Share Posted 13 June 2023 I wonder what the cost to the state is of imprisoning a woman for 14 months? 'Sentencing, judge Mr Justice Edward Pepperall said it was a "tragic" case, adding that if she had pleaded guilty earlier he may have been able to consider suspending her jail sentence. He said the defendant was "wracked by guilt" and had suffered depression and said she was a good mother to three children, one of whom has special needs, who would suffer from her imprisonment.' I'll leave it at this as I don't want to instantly get banned. I find it depressing that a judge can identify that a particular course of action is going to cause harm to three innocent children, that the defendant is clearly vulnerable herself and not a danger to the public and yet go ahead and order that anyway simply because rules have to be followed. That's why I strongly feel this is authoritarian and cruel. There's a massive practical difference between a suspended sentence vs not. I don't think an early guilty plea should fundamentally change a sentence in that way, a proportional reduction in length/quantity whether it's suspended or an amount of unpaid work, fine etc would make sense. Appreciate people do have different perspectives and yet again those who lean authoritarian might have a completely different take. I hope this gets appealed and this woman is freed and given proper support. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nnfox Posted 13 June 2023 Share Posted 13 June 2023 A bit more detail of some of the evidence than on the BBC around this case... https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/mum-who-lied-how-pregnant-8514699 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxesDeb Posted 13 June 2023 Author Share Posted 13 June 2023 Can we please try to keep this open at least a little while longer so we can discuss the case in the news? Please? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benguin Posted 13 June 2023 Share Posted 13 June 2023 Fair enough, all though I wonder what the point of discussing something is if you aren’t open to other peoples views. Might as well think about it instead. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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