ID required for away tickets

[Guest Fox-66]

4 hours ago, Footballwipe said:

I didn't read most of that club propaganda, but this bit hit me hard.

 

The mental stretch to say that the clamour for general sale for Newcastle is because of the ID scheme is absolutely incredible.

 

It is absolutely to do with the fact it's a Monday night game and 400 mile round trip at the end of a season when we've been absolutely terrible and there's the prospect of relegation at the end of the match.

 

To say it's because of the ID scheme completely destroys the droning nonsense you put above. Your agenda is clear. Stop it.

This is not 'club propaganda', it is my valid opinion. If you don't like it, too bad - but as they say 'truth hurts'! 

[Guest Fox-66]

3 hours ago, CosbehFox said:

Also and for the record…
•    A name is required to be allocated to all Away tickets used executive box holders.
•    Any member of staff who is found to have sold their ticket is subject to dismissal.
 

These are facts!

 

I knew my comments would upset and go against the mob metality that is prevalent on this subject but that doesn't stop this being true.

[Guest Fox-66]

3 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

So what if people want general sale for Newcastle because the only previous way they could get a ticket was through someone else? You think they should be denied the right to follow their team now because of that? I'm not sure if you've noticed, but barely any fvcker fancies the trek up there on a Monday night and we need all the support we can get. And what about people who've never used someone else's ST? Why should they be denied the right to watch their team?

 

There are existing laws and regulations to deal with people who get nicked for stuff at football. The very fact that these people were arrested at Spurs makes that self-evident. A scheme that punishes 100 people a game because a dozen people in an away end of 3,000 were acting like herberts is totally disproportionate.

I find it laughable that you think people collecting their ticket at an away game could be considered as 'punishment'!  Wow! 

 

The ID scheme clearly deters those who have not obtained their ticket through the correct process from collecting those tickets, likewise it discourages or stops ST holders with high priority points from buying tickets just to keep their points tally high, which is turn will enable those fans with fewer priority points to buy tickets, which previously they had been unable to do so, due to the greed and selfishness of others!! 
 

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, Fox-66 said:

These are facts!

 

I knew my comments would upset and go against the mob metality that is prevalent on this subject but that doesn't stop this being true.

Okay. 
 

Can you clarify if:-

 

the executive box holders named persons are subject to the same reference points system as everyone else ? Ie. Grossly unfair a mate of a box holder gets ahead of the queue. 

 

whether the named persons for these scenarios are subject to ID collection checks as per everyone else. 

is there anything stopping a member of staff passing on a ticket to another persons? Ie. Not selling but more passing on as defined by UK law still as ‘touting’
 

does a member of staff have to state who any complimentary tickets they arrange are reserved for? 
 

You seem to have a good enough relationship with the club that they are willing to release arrest numbers and collection numbers. So would appreciate answers if you could pass it on. 

Edited 20 May 2023 by CosbehFox

[CosbehFox]

59 minutes ago, Fox-66 said:

I which previously they had been unable to do so, due to the greed and selfishness of others!! 
 

Equally you could argue they are doing a favour for those who can’t afford, can’t sustain or can’t justify spending money on a membership. 
 

That’s particularly the case on this Newcastle game 

[FoxFromCoalville]

15 hours ago, Fox-66 said:

ID checks / General Sales Newcastle Away– An alternative view point

 

ID CHECKS
BEFORE ID checks were introduced by the club, there were 13 arrest at our away game at Spurs, inside the Stadium.  I understand almost all were for drug-related offences. 

 

When the names of those arrested were reviewed by the club it was revealed that 12 of the 13 WERE NEITHER ST holders or members. 

 

Therefore, it is very reasonable to conclude those 12, who are neither ST holders or members, obtained their ticket from ST holders, purchased via the away priority tickets scheme. I’m not 100% sure but I do not think this game reached members, so those tickets were almost certainly obtained from ST holders. 

 

As a result of the arrests at the Spurs game the club introduced the ID scheme. (Similar to some other clubs in the PL).

 

So maybe instead of hurling constant vitriol and abuse at the club , I would maintain the total blame for the introduction of the ID schemes lies totally with those morons who got arrested, with equal blame going to the ST holders who sold these morons their tickets, in breach of the T&C of the rules of buying said ticket. 

 

Also and for the record…
•    A name is required to be allocated to all Away tickets used executive box holders.
•    Any member of staff who is found to have sold their ticket is subject to dismissal.
•    Since the ID scheme was introduced people who act as coach stewards have been selected for ID Checks.
•    Having stewards from the Away team at Away games is not something LCFC have made up themselves, it is a directive from the Premier League (and as I understand it they so not need a ticket so do not eat into our allocation).

 

 

GENERAL-SALE
I think I read of this forum that for a recent away game, where ID was required, 45 of the 100 tickets held back for ID checks were not collected. 

 

I’m sure there may have been a few genuine reasons those 45 tickets were not collected; illness, transport problems, etc. 

 

However, I consider it is reasonable to believe the majority of those 45 tickets were not collected because the ID presented would not have matched the name of the purchaser of the ticket, and therefore in breach of the T&C of the sale of that ticket.

 

Allowing for a few genuine reasons for the non-collections, a figure of 45 would represent around 40% of those selected as being those who had tickets to which they were not entitled.

 

If a figure of 40% were extrapolated to an away allocation of, for example, 3,000 ticket, then maybe 1,200 of those ticket could be in the hands of people who are neither ST holders or members.

 

But they have those tickets due to ST holders selling their tickets to the detriment of those lower down the Priority Points table. Thereby depriving those fans, with fewer Priority Points, the opportunity to buy tickets to which they would have been entitled had certain ST holders not abused the system.

 

That figure of 1,200 may be high but the point still stands.

GENERAL SALE – NEWCASTLE AWAY

There has been a clamour on this forum and on Social Media for tickets for the Newcastle game to be put on general sale.

 

I wonder why?

 

Could it be that since the introduction of the ID check scheme, those fans who previously relied on ST holders with high Priority Points selling them their tickets, are no longer able to get those tickets as the relevant ST holders are no longer willing to sell their tickets due to the risk of sanctions (e.g. loss of Priority Points) being taken against that ST holders.

 

Just a thought…..

 

    

 

Hi Vishal 👋🏽 

[Atheonseye]

I'm reading this and have no idea what ID checks have to do with not putting tickets on general sale ? They are two different things

 

The ID checks were put in to stop those lower on priority system getting stiffed by those higher up selling on tickets. It has been effective as some have said with 45/100 tickets uncollected at Southampton. 

 

It still does not excuse the club gatekeeping 2,000 tickets from our own fans. It is not like the game is a sellout with a secondary market. These fans will not be denying others a fair chance of obtaining a ticket - anyone buying a general sale Newcastle ticket will not be "abusing a system"

 

Giving fans a fair chance to buy a ticket to a football match shouldn't be as much of a debate as it seems to be.

 

[Craig]

7 minutes ago, Atheonseye said:

I'm reading this and have no idea what ID checks have to do with not putting tickets on general sale ? They are two different things

 

The ID checks were put in to stop those lower on priority system getting stiffed by those higher up selling on tickets. It has been effective as some have said with 45/100 tickets uncollected at Southampton. 

 

It still does not excuse the club gatekeeping 2,000 tickets from our own fans. It is not like the game is a sellout with a secondary market. These fans will not be denying others a fair chance of obtaining a ticket - anyone buying a general sale Newcastle ticket will not be "abusing a system"

 

Giving fans a fair chance to buy a ticket to a football match shouldn't be as much of a debate as it seems to be.

 

I do think that a fair few people opted not to travel down to Southampton for a 5:30 televised fixture on the back of previous results though - pathetic performances vs Arsenal and Blackburn in week prior. 

 

The away end as a whole felt pretty sparse, and I know a few who simply didn't bother.

 

Not sure the 45 uncollected is the win the club necessarily thinks it is. 

[Atheonseye]

20 minutes ago, Craig said:

I do think that a fair few people opted not to travel down to Southampton for a 5:30 televised fixture on the back of previous results though - pathetic performances vs Arsenal and Blackburn in week prior. 

 

The away end as a whole felt pretty sparse, and I know a few who simply didn't bother.

 

Not sure the 45 uncollected is the win the club necessarily thinks it is. 

If anyone knows the numbers for Brentford then that would probably be a better marker - I'm fairly sure they've been posted somewhere 

 

Also,  a gentle reminder that this club needed to be bullied into allowing a general sale for a EUROPEAN SEMI FINAL in case anyone has forgotten. 

[Guest Fox-66]

2 hours ago, CosbehFox said:

Okay. 
 

Can you clarify if:-

 

the executive box holders named persons are subject to the same reference points system as everyone else ? Ie. Grossly unfair a mate of a box holder gets ahead of the queue. 

 

whether the named persons for these scenarios are subject to ID collection checks as per everyone else. 

is there anything stopping a member of staff passing on a ticket to another persons? Ie. Not selling but more passing on as defined by UK law still as ‘touting’
 

does a member of staff have to state who any complimentary tickets they arrange are reserved for? 
 

You seem to have a good enough relationship with the club that they are willing to release arrest numbers and collection numbers. So would appreciate answers if you could pass it on. 

Questions and my replies to the best of my knowledge...

 

'the executive box holders named persons are subject to the same reference points system as everyone else?'

• I do not know, but I would have thought if a box holder  pays the very high price for a box, I would guess and expect, they would NOT BE e subject to the same reference points system as everyone else but IMO I would not class that as 'Grossly unfair,  especially in regards to those ST holders who sell tickets to those who are not ST holders or members at the expense of their fellow ST holders.

 

whether the named persons for these scenarios are subject to ID collection checks as per everyone else.

• I am not a box holder, nor do I know any box holders or their guests, I'm just a normal ST holder, so sorry but I cannot provide an answer to your question

is there anything stopping a member of staff passing on a ticket to another persons? Ie. Not selling but more passing on as defined by UK law still as ‘touting’ 

• Same as if the sell - it's dismissal. Losing points is one thing but 'losing job and income' is a different level of risk - would you not agree? NB -  For 'member of staff' I am considering 'people who work for the club'  but not players or board members

 

does a member of staff have to state who any complimentary tickets they arrange are reserved for?

• It is my understanding 'members of staff' do not get complimentary tickets. They buy them, and don't quote me on this, I think they may be subject to the same Priority Points structure as the rest of us. All ticket sales are recorded against the individual who sold them and to whom they were sold. Full traceability

[Guest Fox-66]

1 hour ago, FoxFromCoalville said:

Hi Vishal 👋🏽 

?? 

[Guest Fox-66]

2 hours ago, CosbehFox said:

Equally you could argue they are doing a favour for those who can’t afford, can’t sustain or can’t justify spending money on a membership. 
 

That’s particularly the case on this Newcastle game 

Yes, indeed you could argue that. I don't, but you are free to do so.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and should be able to share it without fear or abuse on this forum and elsewhere. 

[Guest Fox-66]

2 hours ago, CosbehFox said:

Okay. 
 

Can you clarify if:-

 

the executive box holders named persons are subject to the same reference points system as everyone else ? Ie. Grossly unfair a mate of a box holder gets ahead of the queue. 

 

whether the named persons for these scenarios are subject to ID collection checks as per everyone else. 

is there anything stopping a member of staff passing on a ticket to another persons? Ie. Not selling but more passing on as defined by UK law still as ‘touting’
 

does a member of staff have to state who any complimentary tickets they arrange are reserved for? 
 

You seem to have a good enough relationship with the club that they are willing to release arrest numbers and collection numbers. So would appreciate answers if you could pass it on. 

Sorry, I missed your last point.

 

I do not have any relationship with the club (other than I support LCFC). Arrest numbers from that game were in the public domain. The collection numbers of 45/100 were quoted by someone else on this forum.

[KrefelderFox666]

4 hours ago, Fox-66 said:

I find it laughable that you think people collecting their ticket at an away game could be considered as 'punishment'!  Wow! 

 

The ID scheme clearly deters those who have not obtained their ticket through the correct process from collecting those tickets, likewise it discourages or stops ST holders with high priority points from buying tickets just to keep their points tally high, which is turn will enable those fans with fewer priority points to buy tickets, which previously they had been unable to do so, due to the greed and selfishness of others!! 
 

That's a very selfish point of view. Just because you are happy with getting to the ground early to collect a ticket and don't mind potentially queuing doesn't mean it applies to everyone else. Innocent people are once again being inconvenienced because a small number can't behave themselves. There are better ways to handle it.

[Voll Blau]

4 hours ago, Fox-66 said:

I find it laughable that you think people collecting their ticket at an away game could be considered as 'punishment'!  Wow! 

 

The ID scheme clearly deters those who have not obtained their ticket through the correct process from collecting those tickets, likewise it discourages or stops ST holders with high priority points from buying tickets just to keep their points tally high, which is turn will enable those fans with fewer priority points to buy tickets, which previously they had been unable to do so, due to the greed and selfishness of others!! 
 

Of course it's a punishment. Before you could enjoy your day out however you wanted. Now, you have to go through the pain of turning up to the ground at a certain time because your own club have you under suspicion. It's insulting.

 

The ID scheme is only punitive, and proper reform of the away priority system would take care of those points you mention without doing so. But then, that would require people within the club to actually do some work and make some grown-up decisions so it won't happen.

 

Notice you didn't answer my question about whether people who don't have STs or memberships should be allowed access to away tickets, even if they've never been involved in reference swapping. Can you clarify whether you think they should or not?

[CosbehFox]

2 hours ago, Fox-66 said:

Questions and my replies to the best of my knowledge...

 

'the executive box holders named persons are subject to the same reference points system as everyone else?'

• I do not know, but I would have thought if a box holder  pays the very high price for a box, I would guess and expect, they would NOT BE e subject to the same reference points system as everyone else but IMO I would not class that as 'Grossly unfair,  especially in regards to those ST holders who sell tickets to those who are not ST holders or members at the expense of their fellow ST holders.

 

whether the named persons for these scenarios are subject to ID collection checks as per everyone else.

• I am not a box holder, nor do I know any box holders or their guests, I'm just a normal ST holder, so sorry but I cannot provide an answer to your question

is there anything stopping a member of staff passing on a ticket to another persons? Ie. Not selling but more passing on as defined by UK law still as ‘touting’ 

• Same as if the sell - it's dismissal. Losing points is one thing but 'losing job and income' is a different level of risk - would you not agree? NB -  For 'member of staff' I am considering 'people who work for the club'  but not players or board members

 

does a member of staff have to state who any complimentary tickets they arrange are reserved for?

• It is my understanding 'members of staff' do not get complimentary tickets. They buy them, and don't quote me on this, I think they may be subject to the same Priority Points structure as the rest of us. All ticket sales are recorded against the individual who sold them and to whom they were sold. Full traceability

1) A box holder does deserve preference - given there are four tickets per box permitted, why are the other three who aren’t putting money directly in the club allowed to jump the queue? I did say mates of the box holders. 
 

2) So you can see the point of a whole mistrust about this situation. 
 

3 & 4) it happens. Staff give out tickets as they wish - yes they or their acquaintances pay for them. But they still jump the queue. I know this for a fact. Why? Because on occasion I could have received a ticket in this manner. If the name is recorded, understood but there is still no obstacle to that ticket being passed on. 
 

the circumstance is greatly hypocritical and largely caused by a priority system and membership which isn’t fair. Have a scenario where people can realistically build up priority points and they won’t have need to accept high priority point holders trying to flog tickets. 

[Nalis]

21 hours ago, Fox-66 said:

ID checks / General Sales Newcastle Away– An alternative view point

 

ID CHECKS
BEFORE ID checks were introduced by the club, there were 13 arrest at our away game at Spurs, inside the Stadium.  I understand almost all were for drug-related offences. 

 

When the names of those arrested were reviewed by the club it was revealed that 12 of the 13 WERE NEITHER ST holders or members. 

 

Therefore, it is very reasonable to conclude those 12, who are neither ST holders or members, obtained their ticket from ST holders, purchased via the away priority tickets scheme. I’m not 100% sure but I do not think this game reached members, so those tickets were almost certainly obtained from ST holders. 

 

As a result of the arrests at the Spurs game the club introduced the ID scheme. (Similar to some other clubs in the PL).

 

So maybe instead of hurling constant vitriol and abuse at the club , I would maintain the total blame for the introduction of the ID schemes lies totally with those morons who got arrested, with equal blame going to the ST holders who sold these morons their tickets, in breach of the T&C of the rules of buying said ticket. 

 

Also and for the record…
•    A name is required to be allocated to all Away tickets used executive box holders.
•    Any member of staff who is found to have sold their ticket is subject to dismissal.
•    Since the ID scheme was introduced people who act as coach stewards have been selected for ID Checks.
•    Having stewards from the Away team at Away games is not something LCFC have made up themselves, it is a directive from the Premier League (and as I understand it they so not need a ticket so do not eat into our allocation).

 

 

GENERAL-SALE
I think I read of this forum that for a recent away game, where ID was required, 45 of the 100 tickets held back for ID checks were not collected. 

 

I’m sure there may have been a few genuine reasons those 45 tickets were not collected; illness, transport problems, etc. 

 

However, I consider it is reasonable to believe the majority of those 45 tickets were not collected because the ID presented would not have matched the name of the purchaser of the ticket, and therefore in breach of the T&C of the sale of that ticket.

 

Allowing for a few genuine reasons for the non-collections, a figure of 45 would represent around 40% of those selected as being those who had tickets to which they were not entitled.

 

If a figure of 40% were extrapolated to an away allocation of, for example, 3,000 ticket, then maybe 1,200 of those ticket could be in the hands of people who are neither ST holders or members.

 

But they have those tickets due to ST holders selling their tickets to the detriment of those lower down the Priority Points table. Thereby depriving those fans, with fewer Priority Points, the opportunity to buy tickets to which they would have been entitled had certain ST holders not abused the system.

 

That figure of 1,200 may be high but the point still stands.

GENERAL SALE – NEWCASTLE AWAY

There has been a clamour on this forum and on Social Media for tickets for the Newcastle game to be put on general sale.

 

I wonder why?

 

Could it be that since the introduction of the ID check scheme, those fans who previously relied on ST holders with high Priority Points selling them their tickets, are no longer able to get those tickets as the relevant ST holders are no longer willing to sell their tickets due to the risk of sanctions (e.g. loss of Priority Points) being taken against that ST holders.

 

Just a thought…..

 

    

 

I think you meant to post this here instead...

 

 

[Guest Fox-66]

4 hours ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

That's a very selfish point of view. Just because you are happy with getting to the ground early to collect a ticket and don't mind potentially queuing doesn't mean it applies to everyone else. Innocent people are once again being inconvenienced because a small number can't behave themselves. There are better ways to handle it.

 

I would have thought the 'selfish' element of the whole process relates those ST holders who buy tickets to then sell them to others to the detriment of those with fewer away points.

 

But yes, I totally agree with you that innocent people are being inconvenienced because a small number can't behave themselves. But should we not direct the anger and frustration towards those who sell their Away tickets to those who can't behave themselves instead of the seemingly incessant hatred towards the football club that we all support?

[Guest Fox-66]

7 minutes ago, Nalis said:

I think you meant to post this here instead...

 

 

Always good to have a rational and considered response in a debate but never mind, next time maybe.

 

[Nalis]

Just now, Fox-66 said:

Always good to have a rational and considered response in a debate but never mind, next time maybe.

 

I'm just jesting in a daft manner, its good to hear the response from the other perspective and the exchanges between you and CosbehFox.

[Guest Fox-66]

45 minutes ago, Nalis said:

I'm just jesting in a daft manner, its good to hear the response from the other perspective and the exchanges between you and CosbehFox.

That's fine Nalis. All good. 

 

When I hit 'submit' last night I expected a massive pile on of dogs own abuse as I was taking a different opinion to those on here who are most vocal on the subject but it's been ok so far. I'm trying to respond to all those who hold an alternative opinion.

 

To quote Voltaire (although many believe it was misattributed to him)

 

Quote

 I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it

 

[Guest Fox-66]

5 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Of course it's a punishment. Before you could enjoy your day out however you wanted. Now, you have to go through the pain of turning up to the ground at a certain time because your own club have you under suspicion. It's insulting.

 

The ID scheme is only punitive, and proper reform of the away priority system would take care of those points you mention without doing so. But then, that would require people within the club to actually do some work and make some grown-up decisions so it won't happen.

 

Notice you didn't answer my question about whether people who don't have STs or memberships should be allowed access to away tickets, even if they've never been involved in reference swapping. Can you clarify whether you think they should or not?

I agree the away priority system does need reforming and that is a very contentious subject which would cause even more disagreement dependent upon whether or not an individual benefits from any reforms. FoxesTalk would probably go into meltdown if and when reforms are made by the club. 

 

I think the ability for an individual to return and received a refund for purchased Away tickets would be one thing that needs changing. That would allow tickets to go back on sales to filter down to others who could attend. If anyone finds that contentious then I think we all need to give up!! 

 

 

Sorry I did not answer your question, my aim was not to spend my entire Saturday on the laptop!  But I do so now…. Your question... 'Should people who don't have STs or memberships be allowed access to away tickets'

 

My answer 'No!'  I think we all knew at the start of the season the only way of (legitimately) obtaining a ticket for an away game was to be either a ST holder or a member and tickets for PL games would not go on General Sale. That was maybe the time to purchase membership and had they done so, they could have purchased their Newcastle ticket two weeks ago.

 

That's it for tonight, I need to do some ironing to do. Welcome to my Saturday nights! 

[lestuhfox]

9 hours ago, Fox-66 said:

I agree the away priority system does need reforming and that is a very contentious subject which would cause even more disagreement dependent upon whether or not an individual benefits from any reforms. FoxesTalk would probably go into meltdown if and when reforms are made by the club. 

 

I think the ability for an individual to return and received a refund for purchased Away tickets would be one thing that needs changing. That would allow tickets to go back on sales to filter down to others who could attend. If anyone finds that contentious then I think we all need to give up!! 

 

 

Sorry I did not answer your question, my aim was not to spend my entire Saturday on the laptop!  But I do so now…. Your question... 'Should people who don't have STs or memberships be allowed access to away tickets'

 

My answer 'No!'  I think we all knew at the start of the season the only way of (legitimately) obtaining a ticket for an away game was to be either a ST holder or a member and tickets for PL games would not go on General Sale. That was maybe the time to purchase membership and had they done so, they could have purchased their Newcastle ticket two weeks ago.

 

That's it for tonight, I need to do some ironing to do. Welcome to my Saturday nights! 

What a tvvat you are!!!!!

 

The club isn't yours or for the 23 000 season ticket holders or for the small number of members we have.

It's not Tops either or anyone else's who works there making rubbish desicions. 

 

It is our Citys club, our County's club for the 300  000 who live in the City and the population of Leicestershire. 

Also it's for the exiles who have relocated for work, retirement, love, whatever reason they have moved for who are all City fans.

 

If any City fan wants to go to any game home or away they should be able to.

 

Our selling system doesn't allow that and is wrong.

 

I go to most home and away games.

My circumstances have allowed that. 

I do not consider  myself no more of a fan than someone who follows us differently foe example listening to Radio Leicester, but if they decide they want to go to a game they should be able to if tickets are available. 

 

Also in my.opinion a membership should be fee free.

[Voll Blau]

10 hours ago, Fox-66 said:

My answer 'No!'  I think we all knew at the start of the season the only way of (legitimately) obtaining a ticket for an away game was to be either a ST holder or a member and tickets for PL games would not go on General Sale. That was maybe the time to purchase membership and had they done so, they could have purchased their Newcastle ticket two weeks ago.

 

That's it for tonight, I need to do some ironing to do. Welcome to my Saturday nights! 

I'd be interested to see when LCFC made it their stated policy at the start of the season not to put tickets on general sale? I think you might be struggling to find evidence of that...

[Guest Fox-66]

10 hours ago, lestuhfox said:

What a tvvat you are!!!!!

 

The club isn't yours or for the 23 000 season ticket holders or for the small number of members we have.

It's not Tops either or anyone else's who works there making rubbish desicions. 

 

It is our Citys club, our County's club for the 300  000 who live in the City and the population of Leicestershire. 

Also it's for the exiles who have relocated for work, retirement, love, whatever reason they have moved for who are all City fans.

 

If any City fan wants to go to any game home or away they should be able to.

 

Our selling system doesn't allow that and is wrong.

 

I go to most home and away games.

My circumstances have allowed that. 

I do not consider  myself no more of a fan than someone who follows us differently foe example listening to Radio Leicester, but if they decide they want to go to a game they should be able to if tickets are available. 

 

Also in my.opinion a membership should be fee free.

I replied to most replies to my post as alternative views have been expressed clearly and without abuse but as yours is offensive, incoherent and is totally devoid of any reality it does not deserve or warrant any further comment from myself.