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[bovril]

I think with the ECHR as with the EU it's just a way for crap British politicians to blame someone else for their failings. Jenrick was immigration minister ffs.

[Zear0]

Bit rude of that UN fence to get in the way of that Israeli bulldozer. 

[Lionator]

20 minutes ago, bovril said:

I think with the ECHR as with the EU it's just a way for crap British politicians to blame someone else for their failings. Jenrick was immigration minister ffs.

Jenrick and that wing of the Tories have no tangible plan or ambition to make life better for the majority. It is about making the 0.1% richer, asset stripping from the 99.9% and making really loud noises about the EU, immigration, as a means of distraction.

 

If they really wanted to solve the immigration crisis they’d take long term steps like raising the minimum wage and making conditions more suited so that people that already live here can reproduce rather than constantly having to worry about next months rent payments and bills. 

[st albans fox]

8 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

Bit rude of that UN fence to get in the way of that Israeli bulldozer. 

UNIFIL hasn’t  managed to get in the way of Hezbollah’s weapons and fighters for 16 years which is effectively what it was put there for …….

 

10,000 UNIFIL staff to maintain a demilitarised zone south of the litani ……  what do you reckon ……… 2/10 at a push on the basis that they’ve been turning up for work and living away from home. 

[Sampson]

39 minutes ago, bovril said:

I think with the ECHR as with the EU it's just a way for crap British politicians to blame someone else for their failings. Jenrick was immigration minister ffs.

What gets me is we left the EU, it’s clearly been a failure, all polls show the vast majority of British people think it’s clearly been a failure, but they still fall for the same thing just with the scapegoat being shifted onto another supra-national organisation. 
 

The depressing thing is, is the only reason Cameron called the referendum is because it was a pretty minor party level split at the time he thought would sort out, but it only tore his party and the country way wider apart: And despite all the rigmarole, Reform still got around the same voting percentage in 2024 as UKIP did in 2015 so it didn’t even help on the thing he hoped it would do of crushing the Farage vote.
 

Yet Tories again trying to take on Farage with Jenrik and Badanoch, the 2 most populist and furthest right of the candidates in their leadership race. You’d have thought by now that they’d have learnt you can’t out-Farage Farage, he will always go one step further and will always try to create one bogeyman more that needs to be taken on to solve all our problems. After the EU it was the ECHR, after that it will be the world economic forum or the WHO or NATO or the UN or whatever else works as a handy scapegoat. 

Edited 11 October 2024 by Sampson

[leicsmac]

47 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Interesting one for Biden & Starmer & co right now. Either they believe in the provision and utility of the United Nations or they dont and see the United Nations as aiding and abetting terrorism. 

Yeah, the UN is clearly getting rather irate at the whole thing and making the lines in the sand pretty clearly delineated.

 

14 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

UNIFIL hasn’t  managed to get in the way of Hezbollah’s weapons and fighters for 16 years which is effectively what it was put there for …….

 

10,000 UNIFIL staff to maintain a demilitarised zone south of the litani ……  what do you reckon ……… 2/10 at a push on the basis that they’ve been turning up for work and living away from home. 

Can I clarify if this is an accusation of bias from the UN or not?

[st albans fox]

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, the UN is clearly getting rather irate at the whole thing and making the lines in the sand pretty clearly delineated.

 

Can I clarify if this is an accusation of bias from the UN or not?

Absolutely not

incompetence and impotence isn’t about taking sides  

 

tbf, their mission involved other stuff which they may/may not have been any good at.

Edited 11 October 2024 by st albans fox

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Absolutely not

incompetence and impotence isn’t about taking sides  

 

tbf, their mission involved other stuff which they may/may not have been any good at.

I hear that.

 

Personally, when I'm listening to them now I hear people who are rightly pissed off that their efforts to help people are being deliberately stymied despite being exclusively a humanitarian operation, and not really being able to speak out much about it, point fingers or take action because of the vow of neutrality they have to uphold.

[Salisbury Fox]

29 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Jenrick and that wing of the Tories have no tangible plan or ambition to make life better for the majority. It is about making the 0.1% richer, asset stripping from the 99.9% and making really loud noises about the EU, immigration, as a means of distraction.

 

If they really wanted to solve the immigration crisis they’d take long term steps like raising the minimum wage and making conditions more suited so that people that already live here can reproduce rather than constantly having to worry about next months rent payments and bills. 

Even if we had the growth to do the things you seem to think would solve the immigration crisis, migrants will still come. The world’s population is still growing and economic migrants and war/environmental refugees will only increase, to believe otherwise is naive.

[leicsmac]

17 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

Even if we had the growth to do the things you seem to think would solve the immigration crisis, migrants will still come. The world’s population is still growing and economic migrants and war/environmental refugees will only increase, to believe otherwise is naive.

This is exactly right.

 

So perhaps it's time for the parts of the world that actually have the power to do so to more effectively do something about the underlying causes that lead to that, rather than blithely, lazily and unempathetically considering it "just the way things are" and writing off vast swathes of our species and other species as condemned.

Edited 11 October 2024 by leicsmac

[st albans fox]

15 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I hear that.

 

Personally, when I'm listening to them now I hear people who are rightly pissed off that their efforts to help people are being deliberately stymied despite being exclusively a humanitarian operation, and not really being able to speak out much about it, point fingers or take action because of the vow of neutrality they have to uphold.

Part of their mission is to assist the Lebanese army in ensuring that south of the litani remains free of Hezbollah  and its weapons 

 

this has patently not happened - infact Hezbollah is more dug in than 2006 when UNIFIL began their current mission.  They cannot have been oblivious to what was going on under their noses.  They absolutely can make statements about being unable to fulfil their mission to assist 1701 being implemented. 

[bovril]

14 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

Even if we had the growth to do the things you seem to think would solve the immigration crisis, migrants will still come. The world’s population is still growing and economic migrants and war/environmental refugees will only increase, to believe otherwise is naive.

Migration massively increased in 2022 and 2023 because of deliberate government policy. This year I think there's been a drop in visa applications by family members of international students because of a rule change introduced by the last government. We've also seen a big change in where migrants come from, from EU to non EU, again because of deliberate policy.

 

We can manage migration. Politicians and voters will claim otherwise and point fingers at international bodies because they don't want to be blamed. 

[grobyfox1990]

53 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Jenrick and that wing of the Tories have no tangible plan or ambition to make life better for the majority. It is about making the 0.1% richer, asset stripping from the 99.9% and making really loud noises about the EU, immigration, as a means of distraction.

 

If they really wanted to solve the immigration crisis they’d take long term steps like raising the minimum wage and making conditions more suited so that people that already live here can reproduce rather than constantly having to worry about next months rent payments and bills. 

A material percentage of western society will always be worried about paying next month's rent and bills, that's how our economy works. The savings ratio has been in a 9% banding from 1955 to the present day, taking out a huge increase during covid and a large downswing in 1958 for some reason. We've gone through multiple economic cycles since then. If you give westerners more money they'll gas it up on pointless sh1t, that hypothesis has been proven loads

[leicsmac]

11 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Part of their mission is to assist the Lebanese army in ensuring that south of the litani remains free of Hezbollah  and its weapons 

 

this has patently not happened - infact Hezbollah is more dug in than 2006 when UNIFIL began their current mission.  They cannot have been oblivious to what was going on under their noses.  They absolutely can make statements about being unable to fulfil their mission to assist 1701 being implemented. 

I wonder how much of that is their problem and how much is the Lebanese army being ineffective, given the lack of enforcing power UNIFIL have? But yes, fair point.

 

Also with all of that said, deliberately targeting UN facilities because they didn't keep guns and fighters out of an area (even if they had the power to do so) comes right under the heading of "disproportionate response" (with a side helping of "bugger off so we can cleanse this area with fire regardless of who's on the way and not look too bad doing it"), which is of course an Israeli speciality.

[Salisbury Fox]

9 minutes ago, bovril said:

Migration massively increased in 2022 and 2023 because of deliberate government policy. This year I think there's been a drop in visa applications by family members of international students because of a rule change introduced by the last government. We've also seen a big change in where migrants come from, from EU to non EU, again because of deliberate policy.

 

We can manage migration. Politicians and voters will claim otherwise and point fingers at international bodies because they don't want to be blamed. 

I don’t doubt you, but I was responding to the claim that raising living standards so that those living here will have more kids, will see drop in migration.

 

The key with being able to manage migration is getting the balance right between high and low skilled migration. Too many of the latter and there will be problems as the ONS figures highlight. I’m not convinced anyone has had a handle on this for the past 20-30 years.

[Lionator]

21 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

A material percentage of western society will always be worried about paying next month's rent and bills, that's how our economy works. The savings ratio has been in a 9% banding from 1955 to the present day, taking out a huge increase during covid and a large downswing in 1958 for some reason. We've gone through multiple economic cycles since then. If you give westerners more money they'll gas it up on pointless sh1t, that hypothesis has been proven loads

I just want to be able to afford a house and a car, not to spaff it on pointless sh1t. We can’t settle down til a much later age now, and yes I blame Thatcher and Reagan for this. 

[st albans fox]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I wonder how much of that is their problem and how much is the Lebanese army being ineffective, given the lack of enforcing power UNIFIL have? But yes, fair point.

 

Also with all of that said, deliberately targeting UN facilities because they didn't keep guns and fighters out of an area (even if they had the power to do so) comes right under the heading of "disproportionate response" (with a side helping of "bugger off so we can cleanse this area with fire regardless of who's on the way and not look too bad doing it"), which is of course an Israeli speciality.

I’ve not seen a detailed account and explanation of what happened both today and yesterday 

 

I saw that two soldiers were injured after they fell from a viewing platform yesterday. And I’ve seen that today two soldiers were injured by exploding ordinance fired by the IDF.

I’m guessing that the explanation will be that (perhaps conveniently) hezbollah fighters will be said to have been close to the UN sites/soldiers.  Of course, that doesn’t mean that they have to fire at them but then again, in that scenario do you wait to be fired at first ????

 

[MPH]

The message is clear from Israel. Nothing will get in their way of achieving their objectives.  No citizen or humanitarian organization.

 

 

it is 100% NOT a policy or ideology I can align with in any way.

 

you can’t cry Victim ( Oct 7th) and then behave the same way as those you call aggressors.

Edited 11 October 2024 by MPH

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

I’ve not seen a detailed account and explanation of what happened both today and yesterday 

 

I saw that two soldiers were injured after they fell from a viewing platform yesterday. And I’ve seen that today two soldiers were injured by exploding ordinance fired by the IDF.

I’m guessing that the explanation will be that (perhaps conveniently) hezbollah fighters will be said to have been close to the UN sites/soldiers.  Of course, that doesn’t mean that they have to fire at them but then again, in that scenario do you wait to be fired at first ????

 

Bingo. That's pretty much exactly what they've recently said.

 

It comes down to whose account of events you believe, I guess. And on that score, I would consider the UN bods more trustworthy every day of the week, twice on Sundays, and would be interested in any logical argument to the contrary.

[st albans fox]

1 minute ago, MPH said:

The message is clear from Israel. Nothing will get in their way of achieving their objectives m. No cute zen or humanitarian organization.

 

 

it is 100% NOT a policy or ideology I can align with in any way.

 

you can’t cry Victim ( Oct 7th) and then behave the same way as those you call aggressors.

wow

 

You didn’t see the documentaries this week then 

 

what happened on oct 7 wasn’t warfare 

 

war is war and v ugly  - if Israel has broken international law to the extent you say then the ICJ will charge them with genocide (I believe s Africa have now been given a cut off end this month to submit their evidence as they’d asked every month for an extension which has now been denied beyond oct 31  ) 

 

In addition the ICC has still not issued the summons against netenyahu and gallant). This is taking too long - the bar is set v low regarding the likelihood of a conviction regarding the court confirming a summons. 
 

 

 

 

[st albans fox]

13 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Bingo. That's pretty much exactly what they've recently said.

 

It comes down to whose account of events you believe, I guess. And on that score, I would consider the UN bods more trustworthy every day of the week, twice on Sundays, and would be interested in any logical argument to the contrary.

I hadn't read that report either mac !

 

the two are not mutually exclusive btw - the IDF can fire at hezbollah and also attempt to take care not to hit UNIFIL soldiers.  Have unifil said that there were no H fighters in close vicinity ?

 

[MPH]

4 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

wow

 

You didn’t see the documentaries this week then 

 

what happened on oct 7 wasn’t warfare 

 

war is war and v ugly  - if Israel has broken international law to the extent you say then the ICJ will charge them with genocide (I believe s Africa have now been given a cut off end this month to submit their evidence as they’d asked every month for an extension which has now been denied beyond oct 31  ) 

 

In addition the ICC has still not issued the summons against netenyahu and gallant). This is taking too long - the bar is set v low regarding the likelihood of a conviction regarding the court confirming a summons. 
 

 

 

 

Aren’t their some arrest warrants out for Israeli leaders? Wether they have been officially processed yet should hide the fact of how their actions are being seen

Edited 11 October 2024 by MPH

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, st albans fox said:

I hadn't read that report either mac !

 

the two are not mutually exclusive btw - the IDF can fire at hezbollah and also attempt to take care not to hit UNIFIL soldiers.  Have unifil said that there were no H fighters in close vicinity ?

 

They haven't, but then depending on the situation, how would they know? If they don't, then the Israeli word becomes all anyone has to go on.

 

Again, it comes down to trust, I think.

[st albans fox]

16 minutes ago, MPH said:

Aren’t there some arrest warrants out for Israeli leaders? Wether they have been officially processed yet should hide the fact of how their actions are being seen

Not confirmed by the court yet 

currently still applications 

 

That’s not about propaganda - it’s legal argument 

 

and the last seventy years should have illustrated to anyone that Israel care not how they’re viewed when set against what they perceive to be their security 

 

18 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

They haven't, but then depending on the situation, how would they know? If they don't, then the Israeli word becomes all anyone has to go on.

 

Again, it comes down to trust, I think.

I’d be surprised in modern warfare if IDF can avoid supplying some evidence if it’s requested and maintain that excuse. 

[Sampson]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

Migration massively increased in 2022 and 2023 because of deliberate government policy. This year I think there's been a drop in visa applications by family members of international students because of a rule change introduced by the last government. We've also seen a big change in where migrants come from, from EU to non EU, again because of deliberate policy.

 

We can manage migration. Politicians and voters will claim otherwise and point fingers at international bodies because they don't want to be blamed. 

I don’t really see what reducing partner visas for international post-grad students does apart from drive away international talent though. They already couldn’t apply for bachelors students so these are masters and doctorate students which means highly specialised people that very likely aren’t taking any jobs away from your average Joe in the street.

 

Closing out routes for visas for partners and children I guess are the  easiest way to get numbers down but also the most inconsequential or retroactive type of immigration to go after. The whole point of those visas is they live with their partner/parent and they have to show they have adequate housing and resources to support them and they can’t claim benefits. So when people complain about immigration taking up housing or benefits getting these visas down are inconsequential. 
 

I think this is a big problem with the migration debate. It’s obsessed with numbers and so much of the media tries to equate all migrants with people claiming asylum rather than talking about the different categories of immigration based on the reason people come to live in the uk (I.e. work, studies, asylum, love, family reasons etc.)

Edited 11 October 2024 by Sampson