General News

[Lionator]

Holy crap, that Trump post about Zelenskyy ☹️

[FoxesDeb]

1 minute ago, Lionator said:

Holy crap, that Trump post about Zelenskyy ☹️

The man is an actual lunatic I'm certain. 

[FoxesDeb]

Is DT deliberately trying to stir conflict between Europe and the US? I don't think many Europeans have much time for Americans at the best of times, but this is only going to create further divisions, and with what result? Does he really not see that Putin is using him as a puppet for his own end game? 

 

Europe can't sit back and watch DT sell Ukraine out to Putin can we? Or where will it end?

 

Lots of questions I know!

[izzymuzzet]

Makes me laugh when people criticse "MSM propaganda" then go on to repeat a bunch of Kremlin talking points pretty much verbatim.

[izzymuzzet]

5 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Is DT deliberately trying to stir conflict between Europe and the US? I don't think many Europeans have much time for Americans at the best of times, but this is only going to create further divisions, and with what result? Does he really not see that Putin is using him as a puppet for his own end game? 

 

Europe can't sit back and watch DT sell Ukraine out to Putin can we? Or where will it end?

 

Lots of questions I know!

Not sure it's as thought through as that. He just thinks the larger, richer country has the right to overpower smaller neighbouring nations if they want to. His comments on Greenland, Canada and Panama come from the same worldview. No reason to think he'll see Taiwan any differently if China makes its move.

Edited 19 February by izzymuzzet

[FoxesDeb]

5 minutes ago, izzymuzzet said:

Not sure it's as thought through as that. He just thinks the larger, richer country has the right to overpower smaller neighbouring nations if they want to. His comments on Greenland, Canada and Panama come from the same worldview. No reason to think he'll see Taiwan any differently if China makes its move.

Do we think then that he doesn't consider the consequences? ie any of the mentioned countries resisting his attempt, and what that might look like? He's actually narcissistic enough to think it would be welcomed?

[Sampson]

4 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Is DT deliberately trying to stir conflict between Europe and the US? I don't think many Europeans have much time for Americans at the best of times, but this is only going to create further divisions, and with what result? Does he really not see that Putin is using him as a puppet for his own end game? 

 

Europe can't sit back and watch DT sell Ukraine out to Putin can we? Or where will it end?

 

Lots of questions I know!

I think you’re reading too much into it . Trump and Vance are very transparent about their worldview and always have been - it’s America First - always has been and that’s all it boils down to. It’s not about creating conflict in Europe, it’s that they don’t care one jot about Europe and they don’t care one jot about international treaties or international laws or international obligation or the international world order that was built after WW2 in order to protect people from their own governments.
 

Unfortunately as the saying goes “no man is an island” and suddenly pulling the ripcord on foreign aid and foreign support and setting up tariffs on everything and expecting their not to be blowback from other nations all feels a bit Treaty of Versaille-ish. 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

7 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Is DT deliberately trying to stir conflict between Europe and the US? I don't think many Europeans have much time for Americans at the best of times, but this is only going to create further divisions, and with what result? Does he really not see that Putin is using him as a puppet for his own end game? 

 

Europe can't sit back and watch DT sell Ukraine out to Putin can we? Or where will it end?

 

Lots of questions I know!

It looks to me that Trump sees a benefit in partnering with Russia economically and politically.

 

Ukraine clearly has an abundance of mineable assets which Trump wants the US  to be a primary party to.
 

I assume he sees he can get that via one of two ways - through the disgraceful agreement he tried to push on Zelenskyy or by backing Putin and allowing a timeline where Russia can defacto take over Ukraine via a puppet leader… hence the insistence on elections.

 

That the later action helps him to put two fingers up to the EU in the process makes that action all the more attractive no doubt.

Perhaps this is all about project Mars and securing the material and know how for it before that asteroid hits earth! 

 

I also assume Trump tower Moscow is on the cards.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

5 minutes ago, Sampson said:

I think you’re reading too much into it . Trump and Vance are very transparent about their worldview and always have been - it’s America First - always has been and that’s all it boils down to. It’s not about creating conflict in Europe, it’s that they don’t care one jot about Europe and they don’t care one jot about international treaties or international laws or international obligation or the international world order that was built after WW2 in order to protect people from their own governments.

I’m not sure this is true about Vance or indeed Rubio - who have both said scathing things about both Russia and Trump on record.

 

And this is perhaps the most worrying thing about this situation at the moment - there are a lot of people that should and do know better within Trump’s own administration that are not only not calling this stuff out - they’re actively propagating it.

[Fox in the North]

Astonished at how much USA is willing to be Russia’s bitch in this.

[when_you're_smiling]

6 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

It looks to me that Trump sees a benefit in partnering with Russia economically and politically.

 

Ukraine clearly has an abundance of mineable assets which Trump wants the US  to be a primary party to.
 

I assume he sees he can get that via one of two ways - through the disgraceful agreement he tried to push on Zelenskyy or by backing Putin and allowing a timeline where Russia can defacto take over Ukraine via a puppet leader… hence the insistence on elections.

 

That the later action helps him to put two fingers up to the EU in the process makes that action all the more attractive no doubt.

Perhaps this is all about project Mars and securing the material and know how for it before that asteroid hits earth! 

 

I also assume Trump tower Moscow is on the cards.

And I’m sure along the Black Sea coast in Ukraine too like Gaza.

 

I don’t know why people are surprised though. This was always going to happen. He’s not really made a secret of being friendly with Putin and was always going to side with them. Biden made some efforts after the election as he knew. Hopefully the European leaders have already been working on a plan on Trump siding with the enemy.

 

Im interested to see how the right in this country play it all. Normally they just go along with whatever Trump says. 

[Dunge]

Rubio looks utterly caught in the middle of all of this and not sure what on Earth to do.

 

Vance has his eye on Vance ‘28 and is working everything to try to be Trump’s successor.

Edited 19 February by Dunge

[Sampson]

11 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Do we think then that he doesn't consider the consequences? ie any of the mentioned countries resisting his attempt, and what that might look like? He's actually narcissistic enough to think it would be welcomed?

They’ve had a few people from Trump’s first presidency on Rory Stewart and Alistair Campbell’s podcast and they absolutely all infer as much. Allegedly never bothers reading briefs, gets bored listening to any explanation of geopolitics etc. I think you have to take Trump at face value.

[bovril]

Fun times eh. At least the libs were owned.

[Foxdiamond]

5 minutes ago, Sampson said:

I think you’re reading too much into it . Trump and Vance are very transparent about their worldview and always have been - it’s America First - always has been and that’s all it boils down to. It’s not about creating conflict in Europe, it’s that they don’t care one jot about Europe and they don’t care one jot about international treaties or international laws or international obligation or the international world order that was built after WW2 in order to protect people from their own governments.
 

Unfortunately as the saying goes “no man is an island” and suddenly pulling the ripcord on foreign aid and foreign support and setting up tariffs on everything and expecting their not to be blowback from other nations all feels a bit Treaty of Versaille-ish. 

This is the issue. For all their faults since the end of ww2 the US has been central to the defence of western Europe. In the past people have been keen to have a go at the US. Some of it justified but a lot not. Now Trump indicates withdrawal it means a wake up call 

[Zear0]

The beauty of dark mode, so easy to spot the copy and paste from Facebook brigade. 

[martyn]

That Trump post may as well have been written in the Kremlin. The bit about elections gives it away.

[Dunge]

49 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Holy crap, that Trump post about Zelenskyy ☹️

Incidentally, that post (Zelensky is a dictator because he refuses to hold elections) could become bitterly ironic in late 2028 if Trump’s behind in the polls.

[leicsmac]

30 minutes ago, izzymuzzet said:

Not sure it's as thought through as that. He just thinks the larger, richer country has the right to overpower smaller neighbouring nations if they want to. His comments on Greenland, Canada and Panama come from the same worldview. No reason to think he'll see Taiwan any differently if China makes its move.

Exactly so. Might makes Right. Social Darwinism writ large.

 

Not only is that morally objectionable, but also from a practical survival viewpoint oit leads to no good end.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

This is the issue. For all their faults since the end of ww2 the US has been central to the defence of western Europe. In the past people have been keen to have a go at the US. Some of it justified but a lot not. Now Trump indicates withdrawal it means a wake up call 

... I'm going to be honest, this line makes it appear like the current actions of the US are somehow justifiable.

[Dunge]

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Exactly so. Might makes Right. Social Darwinism writ large.

 

Not only is that morally objectionable, but also from a practical survival viewpoint oit leads to no good end.

 

 

... I'm going to be honest, this line makes it appear like the current actions of the US are somehow justifiable.

No, but it is true. Europeans have gleefully queued up to slag off America for years for any number of reasons and now we’re facing a world without their support we don’t like it.

It’s the great pretence of the EU, that peace was founded on it as opposed to American might in NATO.

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, Dunge said:

No, but it is true. Europeans have gleefully queued up to slag off America for years for any number of reasons and now we’re facing a world without their support we don’t like it.

It’s the great pretence of the EU, that peace was founded on it as opposed to American might in NATO.

Personally I don't think that Europeans should be grateful at being the subject of what has been essentially a Mafia protection racket since the end of WWII from the world player who is a just slightly lighter shade of grey than the others.

 

Speaking personally, I'm not deploring just them, I'm deploring the entire system that allowed them to convince the European nations that protection racket was necessary.

 

I've said all along that realpolitik (and nationalism) are the ugliest of words that will lead to no good outcome, we may be seeing the truth of that very starkly even sooner than feared.

Edited 19 February by leicsmac

[Foxdiamond]

20 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Exactly so. Might makes Right. Social Darwinism writ large.

 

Not only is that morally objectionable, but also from a practical survival viewpoint oit leads to no good end.

 

 

... I'm going to be honest, this line makes it appear like the current actions of the US are somehow justifiable.

I was talking historically. 

[bovril]

7 minutes ago, Dunge said:

No, but it is true. Europeans have gleefully queued up to slag off America for years for any number of reasons and now we’re facing a world without their support we don’t like it.

It’s the great pretence of the EU, that peace was founded on it as opposed to American might in NATO.

Not really. For a start there have been wars and ethnic cleansing in Europe since WWII. NATO didn't stop that happening. It hasn't happened in countries in the EU as obviously territorial and economic integration has ensured. Arguably the biggest destabilizing factor in the EU is blowback from the US and UK interventions in the Middle East.

 

The EU has brought stability and prosperity. Anglo Saxon countries don't like to admit that because they like to believe only they can guarantee those things.

[leicsmac]

Just now, Foxdiamond said:

I was talking historically. 

Fair to say.

 

But IMO the present and future should be the focus.

[Dunge]

Just now, bovril said:

Not really. For a start there have been wars and ethnic cleansing in Europe since WWII. NATO didn't stop that happening. It hasn't happened in countries in the EU as obviously territorial and economic integration has ensured. Arguably the biggest destabilizing factor in the EU is blowback from the US and UK interventions in the Middle East.

 

The EU has brought stability and prosperity. Anglo Saxon countries don't like to admit that because they like to believe only they can guarantee those things.

Only by piggybacking off NATO. Angle-Saxons or otherwise, that is the truth.