General News Thread

[Guesty]

1 hour ago, Lionator said:

I can’t remember where but someone posted something good about Americans having this attitude because they’ve never really suffered. All the other great empires have literally had to go to the trenches to survive (think British, French, Russian in Europe), whereas it’s largely been untouched. Even Pearl Harbour, 9/11 were cosmetic and the biggest risk to the country was always and is always internal. Therefore geopolitics is simply a game with no existential impact for the states, unless of course they start a nuclear war with China or Russia. 

This is definitely true. I have relatives who are hardcore Republicans. Anything to do with Russia/Ukraine or a conflict which might actually come back on them they run from. As soon as they think it's a war with Afghan/Vietnamese 'farmers', etc or someone far away with no real power. They're all for it. 

 

They're very propagandised. They don't have anything like the BBC. There's a reason why up until 2009 the media were banned from documenting soldier's caskets returning. Even Hollywood films lie. Films like Zero Dark Thirty, Lone Surviver, or American Sniper all distort the reality, or flat out lie.

 

Talking about 9/11. I remember visiting USA pre and post in 9/11. A lot of Americans were terrified, even months after. They were genuinely scared, for the first time in most of their lives they felt vulnerable. It's funny, if you go there now; 'apparently' many of them didn't really approve, or had concerns with the Iraq/Afghan war. Which is a lie; it just didn't go how they thought it would. 

 

I will say though. USA are going after all China's allies and showing that China won't have your back if it kicks off.

[Super_horns]

So much for wanting peace in the world !?

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Super_horns said:

So much for wanting peace in the world !?

Did anyone actually believe that was anything other than yet another massive piece of gaslighting?

[leicsmac]

17 hours ago, leicsmac said:

definition of nationalism is to believe ones country to be superior, culturally and/or otherwise, to other countries and as a result of that (at least sometimes) are prepared to accept acts of violence and oppression against "other" groups in order to maintain that superiority. 

 

Thought this deserved another look this morning. 

Edited 28 February by leicsmac

[Md9]

35 minutes ago, Super_horns said:

So much for wanting peace in the world !?

All the people who voted for him because he told them Harris would start more wars or drive prices up just feel pretty silly right  now 

[danny.]

11 hours ago, foxes1988 said:

I mean only if you ignore the criticism other countries have gotten for pushing their nationalism too far. India / Pakistan / China / Japan.

I never hear that, but that's anecdotal of course. It's completely acceptable to put up the Pakistan flag in Leicester but putting up the Union or English Flag is often commented as being racist. I have a huge amount of anecdotal evidence to back up that observation. 

[leicsmac]

15 minutes ago, Md9 said:

All the people who voted for him because he told them Harris would start more wars or drive prices up just feel pretty silly right  now 

You're assuming they have the self awareness and any kind of humility. 

[Jattdogg]

I support Iranians who want to get rid of that twaat leader but we all know if your military doesn't back the citizens, it won't happen.

 

Twump and netanyahoo are sick war mongers and i hope they ****in choke themselves off this planet. Take the Iranian supreme wankstain leader with ya along with top Iranian military brass and most US senators and congressmen who are peanut lickers.

 

Twump is 100% owned by Israel or 100% benefiting from them financially to his personal accounts.

 

Waiting for the next invasion of Palestine and land stealing over a few kids throwing rocks. Give it a few months?

 

Fifa president should be ashamed of himself and fired.  Boycott the world cup. I for once dont give a fuk about it and it's sad because Canada/England are in it (of which I support both) and we have games here. Wish we would just refuse to hold games here as a protest.

 

[CornwallFox]

1 hour ago, danny. said:

I never hear that, but that's anecdotal of course. It's completely acceptable to put up the Pakistan flag in Leicester but putting up the Union or English Flag is often commented as being racist. I have a huge amount of anecdotal evidence to back up that observation. 

I'm going to circle back to conversations we've had about where you fit politically. 

 

For the record, when I tease you about it I see it as teasing, there's nothing malicious in it. 

 

It may be that you've been centre left in the past but you really aren't now. It's not that politics has moved left, it really, really hasn't, hence immigration and reform being constants on TV and political discourse now, but in recent days you've made a number of comments that are in line with, variously, reform, GB news, and Tommy Robinson. It's you that has moved rightwards. 

 

Discussion of the union jack as racist is 95%  within right wing channels. It's a really boring trope trotted out endlessly about how you can't say you're English any more (good Stewart Lee piece on that), can't fly the flag, can't tell jokes etc. It's simply untrue.

 

People have been putting up the flag for the last 28 months without anybody giving a stuff. Where comments are made by people like me, it's now because we think it's pathetic anybody believes this guff and feels it necessary to fly the flag to make a point, when none of us care about the flag flying.

 

I would much rather they looked good like flags down the mall or Oxford Street than badly put up on lamposts, but that's my only real observation. It's all right wing victim mentality stuff that I thinks a bit pathetic really. 

[worthosoriginals]

1 hour ago, danny. said:

I never hear that, but that's anecdotal of course. It's completely acceptable to put up the Pakistan flag in Leicester but putting up the Union or English Flag is often commented as being racist. I have a huge amount of anecdotal evidence to back up that observation. 

Best you get painting them roundabouts again then

[leicsmac]

I honestly think political compassing of the type a lot of people used has become or is going to rapidly become passe anyway.

 

There are far clearer and more meaningful labels and distinctions to be made based on a persons political viewpoint. And those distinctions may well only become more stark in the near future.

[Lionator]

1 hour ago, danny. said:

I never hear that, but that's anecdotal of course. It's completely acceptable to put up the Pakistan flag in Leicester but putting up the Union or English Flag is often commented as being racist. I have a huge amount of anecdotal evidence to back up that observation. 

Tell us some anecdotes then because I don’t believe you. 

[hejammy]

. 

Edited 28 February by hejammy

[danny.]

55 minutes ago, CornwallFox said:

I'm going to circle back to conversations we've had about where you fit politically. 

 

For the record, when I tease you about it I see it as teasing, there's nothing malicious in it. 

 

It may be that you've been centre left in the past but you really aren't now. It's not that politics has moved left, it really, really hasn't, hence immigration and reform being constants on TV and political discourse now, but in recent days you've made a number of comments that are in line with, variously, reform, GB news, and Tommy Robinson. It's you that has moved rightwards. 

 

Discussion of the union jack as racist is 95%  within right wing channels. It's a really boring trope trotted out endlessly about how you can't say you're English any more (good Stewart Lee piece on that), can't fly the flag, can't tell jokes etc. It's simply untrue.

 

People have been putting up the flag for the last 28 months without anybody giving a stuff. Where comments are made by people like me, it's now because we think it's pathetic anybody believes this guff and feels it necessary to fly the flag to make a point, when none of us care about the flag flying.

 

I would much rather they looked good like flags down the mall or Oxford Street than badly put up on lamposts, but that's my only real observation. It's all right wing victim mentality stuff that I thinks a bit pathetic really. 

What a mad thing to say - I hear it from left wing people all the time, both online, in the pub, on my street WhatsApp group etc. that is absolute nonsense I'm afraid.

Wherever you live it's absolutely nothing like where I live.

[foxes1988]

2 hours ago, danny. said:

I never hear that, but that's anecdotal of course. It's completely acceptable to put up the Pakistan flag in Leicester but putting up the Union or English Flag is often commented as being racist. I have a huge amount of anecdotal evidence to back up that observation. 

Come on now you never hear criticism of them? If you'd said they rarely get it then Id definitely disagree with you but I'd accept it as an honest account.  'I never hear that' just comes across as dishonest to me.

 

I don't think there's so much comments about people putting St George/Union flags on their own private property but there is an association with being racist if your on a march about immigration with the flags or if you're putting the flags up specifically in certain areas in order to 'protest' rather then just installing a flagpole and putting your flag up at your own property.

 

Was interesting that so many flags stayed on lamposts and other objects for months and months afterwards. In fact alot of the times the flags were so battered it looked pretty pathetic and you'd think that people who were so patriotic would have at least replaced them.  Despite the rights obsession with saying you get arrested for putting them up or that they will quickly get taken down. I think that what the raise the flag protest really showed is its largely a right wing myth that they use to rile up anger.

Edited 28 February by foxes1988

[danny.]

2 minutes ago, foxes1988 said:

Come on now you never hear criticism of them? If you'd said they rarely get it then Id definitely disagree with you but I'd accept it as an honest account.  'I never hear that' just comes across as dishonest to me.

 

I don't think there's so much comments about people putting St George/Union flags on their own private property but there is an association with being racist if your on a march about immigration with the flags or if you're putting the flags up specifically in certain areas in order to 'protest' rather then just installing a flagpole and putting your flag up at your own property.

 

Was interesting that so many flags stayed on lamposts and other objects for months and months afterwards. In fact alot of the times the flags were so battered it looked pretty pathetic and you'd think that people who were so patriotic would have at least replaced them.  Despite the rights obsession with saying you get arrested for putting them up or that they will quickly get taken down. I think that what the raise the flag protest really showed is its largely a right wing myth that they use to rile up anger.

Hear criticism of what, Pakistani flags?

Lats year there was loads of talk about flags whether on private property or roads. Obviously there were loads of idiots going around painting bins and roundabouts etc and putting them on council property but the sentiment very much seemed like any instance of the St George flag was a bad thing. I think the whole flag has been marred by a link to far right groups like the EDL and it has never shaken.

[leicsmac]

Today is certainly an interesting day to be having discussions about displays of national superiority when today is also showing just exactly where such sentiments near inevitably end.

 

One nation inflicting violence on another nation for the sole reason of maintaining its own superiority and that nation being bombed itself killing thousands of its own citizens because it believes itself to be superior too. 

 

Of course, as per above, there's an important difference between patriotism and nationalism, and the simple act of putting up flags is almost always the former than the latter imo, but it should be noted that a certain slippery slope from one to the other does exist and perhaps folks need to be more mindful of that. Perhaps. 

[foxes1988]

38 minutes ago, danny. said:

Hear criticism of what, Pakistani flags?

Lats year there was loads of talk about flags whether on private property or roads. Obviously there were loads of idiots going around painting bins and roundabouts etc and putting them on council property but the sentiment very much seemed like any instance of the St George flag was a bad thing. I think the whole flag has been marred by a link to far right groups like the EDL and it has never shaken.

The discussion wasn't about flags it was nationalism.  Nationalism is more then just displaying a flag.

 

There was loads of talk about about flags on public/council property but only thing I remember about private property was the sentiment of put your flags up at your own house.  As far as I can see there hasn't been a big increase in raising flags at home since the protests. 

 

I personally think the negative sentiment towards the flags was actually towards the protestors. 

 

Edited 28 February by foxes1988

[danny.]

4 minutes ago, foxes1988 said:

The discussion wasn't about flags it was nationalism.  Nationalism is more then just displaying a flag.

 

There was loads of talk about about flags on public/council property but only thing I remember about private property was the sentiment of put your flags up at your own house.  As far as I can see there hasn't been a big increase in raising flags at home since the protests. 

 

I personally think the negative sentiment towards the flags was actually towards the protestors. 

I totally agree with you. I made an initial flippant comment though saying that nationalism isn't generally pointed out to be bad from non-white countries. I stand by that, although semantics of what nationalism is plays a part. If you are defining it as "thinking one nation is better than another", I am completely opposed to that, if you use the definition "affection and pride that people have for their country" I don't think anyone should be derided for that.

There was certainly sentiment towards the protestors, and some times rightly so. But I am still not convinced we see the same sentiment towards people flying other flags whilst protesting.

[Zear0]

Someone let me know which flag I'm allowed to fly please? 

[CornwallFox]

1 hour ago, danny. said:

What a mad thing to say - I hear it from left wing people all the time, both online, in the pub, on my street WhatsApp group etc. that is absolute nonsense I'm afraid.

Wherever you live it's absolutely nothing like where I live.

I live on planet earth....

[leicsmac]

11 minutes ago, danny. said:

I totally agree with you. I made an initial flippant comment though saying that nationalism isn't generally pointed out to be bad from non-white countries. I stand by that, although semantics of what nationalism is plays a part. If you are defining it as "thinking one nation is better than another", I am completely opposed to that, if you use the definition "affection and pride that people have for their country" I don't think anyone should be derided for that.

There was certainly sentiment towards the protestors, and some times rightly so. But I am still not convinced we see the same sentiment towards people flying other flags whilst protesting.

Purely for the record, that does appear to be the dictionary definition of the matter. 

 

Mirrism-Webster: an ideology that elevates one nation or nationality above all others and that places primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations, nationalities, or supranational groups

 

Oxford: identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.

 

There's absolutely no denying that it does get conflated though and it's good to hear you oppose the sentiment as defined by dictionaries, it's just unfortunate that a lot of other people seem to be rather fond of it, if current events are anything to go by. 

[CornwallFox]

11 minutes ago, danny. said:

I totally agree with you. I made an initial flippant comment though saying that nationalism isn't generally pointed out to be bad from non-white countries. I stand by that, although semantics of what nationalism is plays a part. If you are defining it as "thinking one nation is better than another", I am completely opposed to that, if you use the definition "affection and pride that people have for their country" I don't think anyone should be derided for that.

There was certainly sentiment towards the protestors, and some times rightly so. But I am still not convinced we see the same sentiment towards people flying other flags whilst protesting.

It's not about the flag, this is what you're missing. 

 

What you're describing is patriotism. Simply being proud of your country is patriotism. 

 

Nobody cares about people loving their country and flying it's flag and other symbols as patriotism.

 

What we often see, however, is England flags flown by groups that are nationalistic rather than patriotic. The sentiment of their nationalism is what is disliked. You are yourself saying you disagree with nationalism. The flag when used by those groups as a symbol of their beliefs is where flag waving gets brought into focus.

 

Britain first, the national front, BNP, Tommy Robinson and other groups over the years have caused flag waving to be linked to nationalism, rather than patriotism which exists on left and right.

 

You should be angry about them misusing the symbol of our country as much as anybody else. 

 

The flag itself though has no meaning beyond being a symbol of the country so having it displayed is fine. It's about motive and motivation. The fact right wing patriots pretend this distinction doesn't exist is a bit ridiculous. 

[danny.]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Purely for the record, that does appear to be the dictionary definition of the matter. 

 

Mirrism-Webster: an ideology that elevates one nation or nationality above all others and that places primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations, nationalities, or supranational groups

 

Oxford: identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.

 

There's absolutely no denying that it does get conflated though and it's good to hear you oppose the sentiment as defined by dictionaries, it's just unfortunate that a lot of other people seem to be rather fond of it, if current events are anything to go by. 

Fair enough - I don't recall the last time I looked it up in a dictionary. Every day is a school day. Gemini says "Nationalism is an ideology and movement holding that the nation—a group sharing common culture, language, or history—should govern itself as an independent, sovereign state. It promotes national identity, unity, and interests," and in fact that seems to be a USA definition whereas it's negative in British English. Although we have exceptions like "Scottish nationalism" which e.g. Wikipedia defines as "Scottish nationalism promotes the idea that the Scottish people form a cohesive nation and national identity.".

 

3 minutes ago, CornwallFox said:

It's not about the flag, this is what you're missing. 

 

What you're describing is patriotism. Simply being proud of your country is patriotism. 

 

Nobody cares about people loving their country and flying it's flag and other symbols as patriotism.

 

What we often see, however, is England flags flown by groups that are nationalistic rather than patriotic. The sentiment of their nationalism is what is disliked. You are yourself saying you disagree with nationalism. The flag when used by those groups as a symbol of their beliefs is where flag waving gets brought into focus.

 

Britain first, the national front, BNP, Tommy Robinson and other groups over the years have caused flag waving to be linked to nationalism, rather than patriotism which exists on left and right.

 

You should be angry about them misusing the symbol of our country as much as anybody else. 

 

The flag itself though has no meaning beyond being a symbol of the country so having it displayed is fine. It's about motive and motivation. The fact right wing patriots pretend this distinction doesn't exist is a bit ridiculous. 

We'll have to agree to disagree there because I have experienced many people equate flag = racist, the same as I have experience and heard X political group = racism, Y political group = anti semite. I'm not a fan of generalising everybody as something because they have a flag or vote a certain party, it reduces everything to binary stereotypes and assumptions.

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, danny. said:

Fair enough - I don't recall the last time I looked it up in a dictionary. Every day is a school day. Gemini says "Nationalism is an ideology and movement holding that the nation—a group sharing common culture, language, or history—should govern itself as an independent, sovereign state. It promotes national identity, unity, and interests," and in fact that seems to be a USA definition whereas it's negative in British English. Although we have exceptions like "Scottish nationalism" which e.g. Wikipedia defines as "Scottish nationalism promotes the idea that the Scottish people form a cohesive nation and national identity.".

 

That latter part is one of the other definitions pertaining to movement rather than sole sentiment, yes. 

 

I would say again though that it's most inadvisable to overlook or downplay such a sentiment when people acting upon it has led to events like those we are seeing today.