League One

[CosbehFox]

Notts County and Mansfield derbies next season. 

[Sky Blues]

1 hour ago, Paninistickers said:

I'm unsure if the specifics, but both were bought out of administration. So, same club..

 

Our situation will be more akin to Rangers, where the club basically goes out of existence and it will be at the EFL behest to allow a.new club to take a placement league 2 - as the jocks did with Rangers. 

 

Tbh, we will be very fortunate if that happens and we will be eternally grateful to the EFL. I think it will happen btw - the EFL will play ball with a newly formed club. It's a great story after all for their brand..

 

We wouldn't however be playing at the KP. As the Khunt will never relinquish that. KP owns that outright. 

 

 

 

 

Scottish and English football are not comparable. Rangers had to start again against clubs with attendances normally in the hundreds. 

 

If you lose your place in the FL you will be in discussion with the upper non league to where you would get to start from. It would most probably be 2 or 3 levels down from the FL  It nearly happened to my club so we got a good idea what could happen. 

 

 

[Sky Blues]

1 hour ago, Paninistickers said:

I'm.gonna have to look this up, because I'm not sure you can go into adminstration if you don't owe any money. We are going insolvent. We haven't any money to operate.

 

Adminstration is surely when the creditors call in their loans and effectively take over the assets to try get their loan back. Same as a mortgage provider taking your house. 

 

We will just cease to function. And hopefully a newly formed club will be gifted a league position by the EFL. And presumably we'll have to play at Northampton or Notts County or Cov for a short while. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My club went into administration without having unpaid debts to get out of the rental contract with our football ground. The hedge fund that ruined our club started another company in another name and then brought us out of administration. It cost us points and money for the administration process but we didn't have any debts we didn't pay.

[Mickyblueeyes]

8 minutes ago, Sky Blues said:

My club went into administration without having unpaid debts to get out of the rental contract with our football ground. The hedge fund that ruined our club started another company in another name and then brought us out of administration. It cost us points and money for the administration process but we didn't have any debts we didn't pay.

What you’re explaining is known as pre-pack admin. If there were no unpaid debts, there would’ve been renegotiated contractual terms - someone, somewhere would’ve lost out. 

[Pliskin]

We need to really stop fantasising of a resurgence at league one level…. The sooner some fans come to realise that nothing good will come of relegation…… apart from potential new owners……

[Pliskin]

11 minutes ago, Sky Blues said:

My club went into administration without having unpaid debts to get out of the rental contract with our football ground. The hedge fund that ruined our club started another company in another name and then brought us out of administration. It cost us points and money for the administration process but we didn't have any debts we didn't pay.

I think our biggest issue, is we’re losing £40m a year without even doing anything….. we’re literally pissing money away.

[Sky Blues]

10 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

What you’re explaining is known as pre-pack admin. If there were no unpaid debts, there would’ve been renegotiated contractual terms - someone, somewhere would’ve lost out. 

Like I said it got them out of the rental contract for the stadium. That's when we went to Northampton for our home games. 

[Sky Blues]

9 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

I think our biggest issue, is we’re losing £40m a year without even doing anything….. we’re literally pissing money away.

In the eyes of the FL the worst thing a football club can do is not pay a football debt. It comes before the taxman and everything else. If you continue to pay everything owed to players and other clubs you have a chance of getting away with it. 

 

The biggest problem you have is outgoings and football debts to income. If you end up in League One your income will drop like a stone. These debts would need to be covered. If you're still losing 40m a year you would need an owner with deep pockets and the ability to lay their hands on the cash immediately. Because of this your club wouldn't be worth much. Would Top be prepared to crystallise the big losses or just refuse to sell? 

[Pliskin]

11 minutes ago, Sky Blues said:

In the eyes of the FL the worst thing a football club can do is not pay a football debt. It comes before the taxman and everything else. If you continue to pay everything owed to players and other clubs you have a chance of getting away with it. 

 

The biggest problem you have is outgoings and football debts to income. If you end up in League One your income will drop like a stone. These debts would need to be covered. If you're still losing 40m a year you would need an owner with deep pockets and the ability to lay their hands on the cash immediately. Because of this your club wouldn't be worth much. Would Top be prepared to crystallise the big losses or just refuse to sell? 

100% spot on! 

[Collymore]

Not sure about others but sometimes I say we're going down to League 1 to everyone but deep down think it's quite unlikely and I'm using it more like a coping mechanism. 

 

After yesterday it really does feel now we're going down.

 

We've had no new manager bounce and we simply look like we have no idea how to win a football match anymore. 

 

There was something about yesterday which really does make things ominous. 

 

Each game should be now like a cup final for our survival but we just rock up and it really looks like we'll just now run out of games and be down. 

[Paninistickers]

21 minutes ago, Sky Blues said:

just refuse to sell? 

My best guess he will refuse to sell. And the club quietly closes its door. The entire place mothballed. 

 

I think it's a disastrous mix of the owner being a literal idiot, being lied to by yes men and relying on what's served him and his family well - blind luck. KP are essentially gamblers and something, somehow has always popped up to save them. 

[marketharboroughfox]

4 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

My best guess he will refuse to sell. And the club quietly closes its door. The entire place mothballed. 

 

I think it's a disastrous mix of the owner being a literal idiot, being lied to by yes men and relying on what's served him and his family well - blind luck. KP are essentially gamblers and something, somehow has always popped up to save them. 

The realistic worst case scenario is what happened with Chansiri at Sheff W, and both him and Top seem to share similar characteristics. Chansiri eventually had to admit defeat, so will Top.

[Paninistickers]

1 minute ago, marketharboroughfox said:

The realistic worst case scenario is what happened with Chansiri at Sheff W, and both him and Top seem to share similar characteristics. Chansiri eventually had to admit defeat, so will Top.

It's a puzzle. 

 

The main difference to chansiri is the KP own the stadium, Belvoir Drive and seagrave. Not the club. 

 

We are in a very very difficult place. He will lose the club for sure. But I suspect he'll also 'take his ball away' too and cling on to those assets. Mean they will be mothballed..

 

I can seriously see a situation where - thanks to the EFL, who I think will throw us a bone - we play in league 1. Or 2 next season under a new entity but playing at Notts County and training at Loughborough Uni. And everything gone. Academy, players,.staff. The lot. 

[marketharboroughfox]

2 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

It's a puzzle. 

 

The main difference to chansiri is the KP own the stadium, Belvoir Drive and seagrave. Not the club. 

 

We are in a very very difficult place. He will lose the club for sure. But I suspect he'll also 'take his ball away' too and cling on to those assets. Mean they will be mothballed..

 

I can seriously see a situation where - thanks to the EFL, who I think will throw us a bone - we play in league 1. Or 2 next season under a new entity but playing at Notts County and training at Loughborough Uni. And everything gone. Academy, players,.staff. The lot. 

What I don't know is to what extent his family has influence over him, Chansiri of course was regarded by his wider family as an embarrassment and they washed their hands of him. At some point, you have to admit the game's up, cut your losses and move on. If stuff gets mothballed it don't get sold.

 

I can't see what you're describing at the end happening, at least not yet. Points deduction in L1 quite possibly, but should still be playing in the same ground and training at the same facilities. I will say though, we have burned through all the transfer revenue and parachute money we were due. I expect we will raise enough in sales in the summer to keep things going for another season, but after that there needs to be some serious downsizing.

 

Selling off part/all of Belvoir Drive, Seagrave etc looks unavoidable.

[Broof]

8 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

It's a puzzle. 

 

The main difference to chansiri is the KP own the stadium, Belvoir Drive and seagrave. Not the club. 

 

We are in a very very difficult place. He will lose the club for sure. But I suspect he'll also 'take his ball away' too and cling on to those assets. Mean they will be mothballed..

 

I can seriously see a situation where - thanks to the EFL, who I think will throw us a bone - we play in league 1. Or 2 next season under a new entity but playing at Notts County and training at Loughborough Uni. And everything gone. Academy, players,.staff. The lot. 

How does that work then? Who's running the day to day/signing players/fronting the cash? 

[Free Falling Foxes]

56 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

We need to really stop fantasising of a resurgence at league one level…. The sooner some fans come to realise that nothing good will come of relegation…… apart from potential new owners……

Indeed. I think it'll be very difficult to get promoted. 

I know it's a cliche but lots of teams will see us as a scalp, their 'Cup final' if you like and really go for it.

Throw into the mix the seemingly ingrained apathy in the playing squad that a succession of managers cannot address, means it does not bode well.

[Spudulike]

26 minutes ago, Collymore said:

Not sure about others but sometimes I say we're going down to League 1 to everyone but deep down think it's quite unlikely and I'm using it more like a coping mechanism. 

 

After yesterday it really does feel now we're going down.

 

We've had no new manager bounce and we simply look like we have no idea how to win a football match anymore. 

 

There was something about yesterday which really does make things ominous. 

 

Each game should be now like a cup final for our survival but we just rock up and it really looks like we'll just now run out of games and be down. 

I was the same until the first Norwich goal, probably before as it was inevitable. Something changed yesterday and that glimmer of optimism was gone in an instant. Shocked and stunned but shouldn't have been. I would've left my season ticket at the door on the way out if it was possible.

 

It's going to take something seismic for me to renew our two season tickets. It's helped towards making that decision.

[Paninistickers]

16 minutes ago, marketharboroughfox said:

I expect we will raise enough in sales in the summer to keep things going for another season

Well, if we donwe live to fight another day. They will sell,.say, 6 players for, say, 40m and dash to Macquarie to get the cash in the bank straight away. Rinse and repeat summer after or 'we promote'..

 

I'm (and plenty of others) are suggesting that, however, the sales may not be enough to finance next season. 

 

Of course what any normal businessman would do is look for investment in exchange for a holding on the business. Say 200m for 51% and that props is up for the next four years and with good management (ha!) get back to the PL - financially lean and fit. The investor would see that as viable and profitable. And KP although holding only 49%, hold all the cards on the stadium and could leverage that to sell out their share. That's a normal functional business plan. 

 

But we are dealing with an idiot here. He will destroy us and himself. 

[marketharboroughfox]

2 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Well, if we donwe live to fight another day. They will sell,.say, 6 players for, say, 40m and dash to Macquarie to get the cash in the bank straight away. Rinse and repeat summer after or 'we promote'..

 

I'm (and plenty of others) are suggesting that, however, the sales may not be enough to finance next season. 

 

Of course what any normal businessman would do is look for investment in exchange for a holding on the business. Say 200m for 51% and that props is up for the next four years and with good management (ha!) get back to the PL - financially lean and fit. The investor would see that as viable and profitable. And KP although holding only 49%, hold all the cards on the stadium and could leverage that to sell out their share. That's a normal functional business plan. 

 

But we are dealing with an idiot here. He will destroy us and himself. 

The vast majority of the 'legacy' high earners will be sold or released. The likes of Faes unfortunately have another year to go and their sale value negligible, but the summer will see a lot of relief on the wage bill as a minimum.

 

Fully agree with what 'should' be done. But if we had owners doing what 'should' be done all along, we'd probably be halfway up the Prem and not staring down at the third tier.

[coolhandfox]

4 hours ago, Winstonthedog said:

Total rubbish ... we are in this position because the way the club is being run .... and judging by this it seems that the mis management of the club says they are desperate for league 1 .... and if they don't realise and take ownership of the debacle we could be in league 1 for a while 

Are you OK mate? 

 

Where have I said anything to do with why we are in in this position? 

 

Drink so water, go out for a walk you feel better.

[Terraloon]

3 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

I'm unsure if the specifics, but both were bought out of administration. So, same club..

 

Our situation will be more akin to Rangers, where the club basically goes out of existence and it will be at the EFL behest to allow a.new club to take a placement league 2 - as the jocks did with Rangers. 

 

Tbh, we will be very fortunate if that happens and we will be eternally grateful to the EFL. I think it will happen btw - the EFL will play ball with a newly formed club. It's a great story after all for their brand..

 

We wouldn't however be playing at the KP. As the Khunt will never relinquish that. KP owns that outright. 

 

 

 

 

There is basically a route called pre packaged administration where in effect every thing is agreed before an insolvency practitioner(IP)  becomes involved . There are of course politics in all this but ultimately the laws around insolvency apply to distressed football clubs 

 

That route would probably provide  a perfect solution if the club wasn’t in such a mess and wasn’t under obligations with  McGuire and KP  that is.

 

So much of the clubs future income  to the club has already been spent.

 

Anyone willing Administration is , well mad! Many of the IPs I knew would probably look at the situation and go straight for liquidation if for no other reason than the they would be unlikely to generate enough cash to enable them to pay day to day expenses during the administration period and continued trading probably wouldn’t 
 

We don’t know what the situation would be with regard to KPs loans or how they are secured against such things as  Seagrave and the stadium and again back to McGuaire I believe their charge is  a fixed and floating charge meaning if the club can’t pay they can take possession of goods and chattels.

 

The reality is that an IP would be primarily concerned with creditors and the FA would be pressing for football creditors to be paid first.Where would the millions that are still owed for historical transfers come from for instance ?
 

The cupboard is bare ! Players will  be sold of course but in a market where a club is in financial difficulties fees offered will be negligible.if it comes t9 t( point where a certain number of paydays aren’t met on time players can leave for free under what’s called sporting just cause or come seasons end certain other players may well explore leaving on a Section 17 Webster . 
 

But all the while you have the EFL rules around Administration and almost certainly there would be a requirement for those creditors to be paid in full or as a minimum a payment plan in place before the start of the next season.Explusion would maybe lead to a new club but even that wouldn’t be guaranteed 

As I say anyone wishing for Administration is mad

 

 

 

[Sky Blues]

40 minutes ago, marketharboroughfox said:

What I don't know is to what extent his family has influence over him, Chansiri of course was regarded by his wider family as an embarrassment and they washed their hands of him. At some point, you have to admit the game's up, cut your losses and move on. If stuff gets mothballed it don't get sold.

 

I can't see what you're describing at the end happening, at least not yet. Points deduction in L1 quite possibly, but should still be playing in the same ground and training at the same facilities. I will say though, we have burned through all the transfer revenue and parachute money we were due. I expect we will raise enough in sales in the summer to keep things going for another season, but after that there needs to be some serious downsizing.

 

Selling off part/all of Belvoir Drive, Seagrave etc looks unavoidable.

The FFP rules for League One are totally different. You're only allowed to spend 60% of income on the playing staff. You would have to get rid of all of your high earners even if that means giving them free transfers just to get them off the books....if anyone would take them for the wage they would expect, especially for the period they are still in contract with you. Your owners could donate the funds to your club to help finance this, but again only 60% of any gift given by the owners can be used for this reason. None of this money can be claimed back by the owners, but by the look of things it would be needed for.other expenses at your club like the training ground. 

 

And remember, your income would be much lower in League One. Without a big gift from your owners you would need a squad of League One players to keep within budget. You wouldn't have the spending power to have 15k a week plus players. Most of your income would be from gate receipts and your attendances will be much lower.

 

Going into League One won't improve anything but will cause even more problems without a cash injection. 

[markko]

Yesterday was another harsh lesson. We were outplayed and out battled for much of the game. Glad we have Lascelles and James back. We need to wake up and quickly otherwise we are down.

[marketharboroughfox]

5 minutes ago, Sky Blues said:

The FFP rules for League One are totally different. You're only allowed to spend 60% of income on the playing staff. You would have to get rid of all of your high earners even if that means giving them free transfers just to get them off the books....if anyone would take them for the wage they would expect, especially for the period they are still in contract with you. Your owners could donate the funds to your club to help finance this, but again only 60% of any gift given by the owners can be used for this reason. None of this money can be claimed back by the owners, but by the look of things it would be needed for.other expenses at your club like the training ground. 

 

And remember, your income would be much lower in League One. Without a big gift from your owners you would need a squad of League One players to keep within budget. You wouldn't have the spending power to have 15k a week plus players. Most of your income would be from gate receipts and your attendances will be much lower.

 

Going into League One won't improve anything but will cause even more problems without a cash injection. 

Sunderland entered this division in a similar state and I see that as the closest comparison if we do go down. Expensive facilities, players on absurd contracts, owner who'd given up etc etc.

 

I've said above and before, in the moderate term we are going to need to accept a serious amount of downsizing in terms of not just the squad but also the facilities. Notwithstanding what you've written I still think enough players will be sold or released to get the numbers to work next season if relegated.

[Sky Blues]

33 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Well, if we donwe live to fight another day. They will sell,.say, 6 players for, say, 40m and dash to Macquarie to get the cash in the bank straight away. Rinse and repeat summer after or 'we promote'..

 

I'm (and plenty of others) are suggesting that, however, the sales may not be enough to finance next season. 

 

Of course what any normal businessman would do is look for investment in exchange for a holding on the business. Say 200m for 51% and that props is up for the next four years and with good management (ha!) get back to the PL - financially lean and fit. The investor would see that as viable and profitable. And KP although holding only 49%, hold all the cards on the stadium and could leverage that to sell out their share. That's a normal functional business plan. 

 

But we are dealing with an idiot here. He will destroy us and himself. 

The problem you have is because of the shocking overheads of your club and the position you find yourself in your club is worth closer to 40m than 400m. In League One you would be lucky to find a buyer for 40m. A new owner would have to instantly pump more than 40m straight into your club just to keep it going. If you don't keep to the new FFP rules you would find yourself under you would get a points deduction. Will you be getting another points deduction for being so far out of the rules yet again this season? 

 

Nobody with more than half a braincell would be happy to pump unlimited funds into a club with such an uncertain near future.