Sacking Doesn't Succeed

[Manwell Pablo]

Well I noticed this little article on BBC's website, and seeing as the debate about our curennt manager has been dragging on, I though I'd bring this to everyones attention.

A report that backs up all those who want to keep Levein. and from the University of Warwick no less.

Link

I think it illustraights some good points.

I still think in most cases however theres is a time when a football manager must go and Craig is skateing on wafer thin ice.

[Thracian]

Well I noticed this little article on BBC's website, and seeing as the debate about our curennt manager has been dragging on, I though I'd bring this to everyones attention.

A report that backs up all those who want to keep Levein. and from the University of Warwick no less.

Link

I think it illustraights some good points.

I still think in most cases however theres is a time when a football manager must go and Craig is skateing on wafer thin ice.

I think Warnock and the report make some excellent points.

And, in the financial state that most clubs are in it is unrealisitic to expect miracles overnight. Two or three decent imports per season should give them a full team in two to three years, always assuming there were a few good players at the club to start with.

My problem with Levein is his general approach to playing his football and it was the same at Hearts by all accounts. He just doesn't seem to understand what attacking football is about and nor does he deep down seem to believe in it.

There are many posters who are not bothered about this. They have said they would rather have a 1-0 win than lose 5-4. Well, apart from the fact it's as easy to lose 1-0 or similar (as we continuously do) as it is to win 5-4 my argument is not with the scores but the philosophy.

In 14 months I've seen nothing that suggests Levein will ever be an exciting, charismatic manager for us. He will probably get some results in time but the type of football counts to me and ours will hardly ever be exhilerating.

It's a personal thing I guess, and not everyone will ever agree on it. I just happen to detest cautious, defensive, negative football especially when we voluntarily play like that instead of being forced to.

[TornadoShaunUK]

I read this earlier, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd are amongst the sides with fewest managers in the past decade or so. Big successful sides. However there are also teams that have had very few managers such as Crewe who are noteably less successful. I guess on the whole its right but as with everything there can be exceptions.. ??

[Michael Doyle]

Stop it Manwell. It getting to academic......Ahhhhh

Excellent point though backed up with relevence and some great examples .

Well done Sir.......I salute you .

COME ON YOU MIGHTY FOXES

MadMick

[wirralsimon]

I read this earlier, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd are amongst the sides with fewest managers in the past decade or so. Big successful sides. However there are also teams that have had very few managers such as Crewe who are noteably less successful. I guess on the whole its right but as with everything there can be exceptions.. ??

Bit harsh on Crewe there. Given the size of the town/club their record stands coparison with any other comparable club over the last few years, they have kept Dario Gradi for years and while it its true that they haven't stormed into the prem they have given a start/leg-up to some cracking players over the years, they play decent football given the level they operate at, they have one of the best youth set-ups outside the prem and they are financially stable in a way most lower-league clubs are not. I am not sure that makes the case against keeping a manager for a long time!

Simon

[Rich_Sheffield]

good point

Whilist I appreciate CL isn't preforming, I don't think we there is anyone else better that could dig us out of the whole we are in. We have hit the woodwork 16 times this year (the most in the football league). Some of our football is quuite good. Our luck will change soon, surely, won't it?

UP THE FOXES!

[Katy]

Bit harsh on Crewe there. Given the size of the town/club their record stands coparison with any other comparable club over the last few years, they have kept Dario Gradi for years and while it its true that they haven't stormed into the prem they have given a start/leg-up to some cracking players over the years, they play decent football given the level they operate at, they have one of the best youth set-ups outside the prem and they are financially stable in a way most lower-league clubs are not. I am not sure that makes the case against keeping a manager for a long time!

Simon

Not forgetting Dario G as a coach and a developer of talent. Look at the quality he has nurtured in the past 10-15 years, I dont think theres been a club that comes near is there?

good point

Whilist I appreciate CL isn't preforming, I don't think we there is anyone else better that could dig us out of the whole we are in. We have hit the woodwork 16 times this year (the most in the football league). Some of our football is quuite good. Our luck will change soon, surely, won't it?

UP THE FOXES!

Top first post Rich and welcome to Foxestalk I agree with that 100%

[Ric Flair]

I think Warnock and the report make some excellent points.

And, in the financial state that most clubs are in it is unrealisitic to expect miracles overnight. Two or three decent imports per season should give them a full team in two to three years, always assuming there were a few good players at the club to start with.

My problem with Levein is his general approach to playing his football and it was the same at Hearts by all accounts. He just doesn't seem to understand what attacking football is about and nor does he deep down seem to believe in it.

There are many posters who are not bothered about this. They have said they would rather have a 1-0 win than lose 5-4. Well, apart from the fact it's as easy to lose 1-0 or similar (as we continuously do) as it is to win 5-4 my argument is not with the scores but the philosophy.

In 14 months I've seen nothing that suggests Levein will ever be an exciting, charismatic manager for us. He will probably get some results in time but the type of football counts to me and ours will hardly ever be exhilerating.

It's a personal thing I guess, and not everyone will ever agree on it. I just happen to detest cautious, defensive, negative football especially when we voluntarily play like that instead of being forced to.

Does Levein play negative football though? I know there have been 4 or 5 occasions during his tenure that he's played 4-5-1 but I would hazard a guess that almost every manager in the land has done this just as much if not more than him. I'm not dismissing what you say, perhaps Levein isn't the most attacking manager about but I don't think that's the problem with our league position. As the stats have proved we have created the 2nd most chances in the league behind Wolves (managed by Glenn Hoddle who isn't classed as a defensive manager) creating that many chances isn't a trait of a particularly defensive set-up.

Because we are doing badly, it's easy to pinpoint numerous reasons why we aren't achieving but the style of football we play isn't that far from the required standard to succeed in this league and beyond. Levein shoots himself in the foot by playing players out of position and not picking players on merit and as you say perhaps his defensive instincts means he isn't as creative as a manager when it comes to thinking up new ideas for attacking play before and during a game.

You mentioned the fact you'd rather us have the philosophy of losing 5-4 than trying to pinch a 1-0 but how many teams in the current game do this? Infact how many teams on a regular basis get involved in high scoring games of say 6 or more goals? Obviously teams with fantastic attacking players like Chelsea and Man United do but the game has moved on since the 60s and 70s when this happened frequently. Defenders are alot more mobile and athletic and probably even stronger and harder to beat. Attackers have got better aswell but it appears they cancel themselves out alot more now.

I wouldn;t say Levein goes for the 1-0 win route anymore than the next manager, although his tactics away from home need fine tuning drastically. I'm not concerned by Levein's style of management, there are obvious faults he has but I actually enjoy the football we play when we get it right. Even when we don't get it right we still create a fair few chances, with a clinical finisher i'd hope we'd put these chances away even in a game we aren't playing particularly well in.

Levein was defensive up in Scotland, Hearts fans will back that up. He didn't sign as many attacking players as he has down here. There is no way Hearts had 4 strikers like he's signed here and they didn't have a winger like Smith. That shows that Levein cannot be compared to his style of management from his time at Hearts as it's obvious he's learnt from his time up there and is aware he needs to be more positive and attack minded in England.

[Babylon]

Does Levein play negative football though? I know there have been 4 or 5 occasions during his tenure that he's played 4-5-1 but I would hazard a guess that almost every manager in the land has done this just as much if not more than him. I'm not dismissing what you say, perhaps Levein isn't the most attacking manager about but I don't think that's the problem with our league position. As the stats have proved we have created the 2nd most chances in the league behind Wolves (managed by Glenn Hoddle who isn't classed as a defensive manager) creating that many chances isn't a trait of a particularly defensive set-up.

Because we are doing badly, it's easy to pinpoint numerous reasons why we aren't achieving but the style of football we play isn't that far from the required standard to succeed in this league and beyond. Levein shoots himself in the foot by playing players out of position and not picking players on merit and as you say perhaps his defensive instincts means he isn't as creative as a manager when it comes to thinking up new ideas for attacking play before and during a game.

You mentioned the fact you'd rather us have the philosophy of losing 5-4 than trying to pinch a 1-0 but how many teams in the current game do this? Infact how many teams on a regular basis get involved in high scoring games of say 6 or more goals? Obviously teams with fantastic attacking players like Chelsea and Man United do but the game has moved on since the 60s and 70s when this happened frequently. Defenders are alot more mobile and athletic and probably even stronger and harder to beat. Attackers have got better aswell but it appears they cancel themselves out alot more now.

I wouldn;t say Levein goes for the 1-0 win route anymore than the next manager, although his tactics away from home need fine tuning drastically. I'm not concerned by Levein's style of management, there are obvious faults he has but I actually enjoy the football we play when we get it right. Even when we don't get it right we still create a fair few chances, with a clinical finisher i'd hope we'd put these chances away even in a game we aren't playing particularly well in.

Levein was defensive up in Scotland, Hearts fans will back that up. He didn't sign as many attacking players as he has down here. There is no way Hearts had 4 strikers like he's signed here and they didn't have a winger like Smith. That shows that Levein cannot be compared to his style of management from his time at Hearts as it's obvious he's learnt from his time up there and is aware he needs to be more positive and attack minded in England.

Exactly what I wanted to say but couldn't be bothered.

[Strokes]

Does Levein play negative football though? I know there have been 4 or 5 occasions during his tenure that he's played 4-5-1 but I would hazard a guess that almost every manager in the land has done this just as much if not more than him. I'm not dismissing what you say, perhaps Levein isn't the most attacking manager about but I don't think that's the problem with our league position. As the stats have proved we have created the 2nd most chances in the league behind Wolves (managed by Glenn Hoddle who isn't classed as a defensive manager) creating that many chances isn't a trait of a particularly defensive set-up.

Because we are doing badly, it's easy to pinpoint numerous reasons why we aren't achieving but the style of football we play isn't that far from the required standard to succeed in this league and beyond. Levein shoots himself in the foot by playing players out of position and not picking players on merit and as you say perhaps his defensive instincts means he isn't as creative as a manager when it comes to thinking up new ideas for attacking play before and during a game.

You mentioned the fact you'd rather us have the philosophy of losing 5-4 than trying to pinch a 1-0 but how many teams in the current game do this? Infact how many teams on a regular basis get involved in high scoring games of say 6 or more goals? Obviously teams with fantastic attacking players like Chelsea and Man United do but the game has moved on since the 60s and 70s when this happened frequently. Defenders are alot more mobile and athletic and probably even stronger and harder to beat. Attackers have got better aswell but it appears they cancel themselves out alot more now.

I wouldn;t say Levein goes for the 1-0 win route anymore than the next manager, although his tactics away from home need fine tuning drastically. I'm not concerned by Levein's style of management, there are obvious faults he has but I actually enjoy the football we play when we get it right. Even when we don't get it right we still create a fair few chances, with a clinical finisher i'd hope we'd put these chances away even in a game we aren't playing particularly well in.

Levein was defensive up in Scotland, Hearts fans will back that up. He didn't sign as many attacking players as he has down here. There is no way Hearts had 4 strikers like he's signed here and they didn't have a winger like Smith. That shows that Levein cannot be compared to his style of management from his time at Hearts as it's obvious he's learnt from his time up there and is aware he needs to be more positive and attack minded in England.

Agree with alot of the above, but can see where Levein shoots himself in the foot, he reguarly bangs on about how we struggle break down sides that come in and sit back (to which i agree) and that we are far more effective when sides come and try and attack us, but then when we play teams like spurs & reading we go for the 4-5-1 which to me is a bit of a contradiction.

[Bob666]

Agree with alot of the above, but can see where Levein shoots himself in the foot, he reguarly bangs on about how we struggle break down sides that come in and sit back (to which i agree) and that we are far more effective when sides come and try and attack us, but then when we play teams like spurs & reading we go for the 4-5-1 which to me is a bit of a contradiction.

Didn't Levein play 4-5-1 in the cup away to Charlton last year? I think unfortunately he thinks this is a good tactic due to that success. It did work very well on the day due to the midfield playing above themselves (similar to last Sunday) but maybe we had some luck due to Charlton's off-key performance & Dion bundling a goal from a set piece in last minute.

I think Levein's still in awe of English League & as things havent worked out well for him to date - he's relying on his defensive tactics applied in the Scottish League. Unfortunately we expect to see entertaining football, particularly at home. No fan wants to go to the Walkers expecting to be 0-1 at half time. Hopefully, with the signing of Fryatt, better luck (Spurs match), other players rising to the challenge & putting in 110% commitment as per several in Spurs match, we can actually win some League matches & get some points.

[Strokes]

Didn't Levein play 4-5-1 in the cup away to Charlton last year? I think unfortunately he thinks this is a good tactic due to that success. It did work very well on the day due to the midfield playing above themselves (similar to last Sunday) but maybe we had some luck due to Charlton's off-key performance & Dion bundling a goal from a set piece in last minute.

I think Levein's still in awe of English League & as things havent worked out well for him to date - he's relying on his defensive tactics applied in the Scottish League. Unfortunately we expect to see entertaining football, particularly at home. No fan wants to go to the Walkers expecting to be 0-1 at half time. Hopefully, with the signing of Fryatt, better luck (Spurs match), other players rising to the challenge & putting in 110% commitment as per several in Spurs match, we can actually win some League matches & get some points.

Yes but i agree with that as charlton also play 4-5-1, and are quite defensive.

[davieG]

Seems to me this condemnation of CL's 451 is getting more attention than it deserves, he must have used it about 6(?) times as I recall of which 4(?) have been in the cup so it's certainly not the reason for our current position.

Invariable he's played 442 and although that's hasn't meant we've gone on a full attack mode from the off and been as positive as we should have been there are very few games if any where we haven't spent at least half the game going gung ho at the oppo.

The simple fact is that we haven't converted enough of the chances we've created into goals. The forwards and the midfield aren't scoring anywhere near enough. another significant cfactor is our inability to score from set pieces. none of this has anything to do with playing the odd game in a 451 formation.

[Chrysalis]

I wont comment on what I fully think and will wait a few games but what I will say is it seems evident to me the style of play we have adapted currently is more suited to premiership football then championship football.

[Thracian]

Does Levein play negative football though? I know there have been 4 or 5 occasions during his tenure that he's played 4-5-1 but I would hazard a guess that almost every manager in the land has done this just as much if not more than him. I'm not dismissing what you say, perhaps Levein isn't the most attacking manager about but I don't think that's the problem with our league position. As the stats have proved we have created the 2nd most chances in the league behind Wolves (managed by Glenn Hoddle who isn't classed as a defensive manager) creating that many chances isn't a trait of a particularly defensive set-up.

Because we are doing badly, it's easy to pinpoint numerous reasons why we aren't achieving but the style of football we play isn't that far from the required standard to succeed in this league and beyond. Levein shoots himself in the foot by playing players out of position and not picking players on merit and as you say perhaps his defensive instincts means he isn't as creative as a manager when it comes to thinking up new ideas for attacking play before and during a game.

You mentioned the fact you'd rather us have the philosophy of losing 5-4 than trying to pinch a 1-0 but how many teams in the current game do this? Infact how many teams on a regular basis get involved in high scoring games of say 6 or more goals? Obviously teams with fantastic attacking players like Chelsea and Man United do but the game has moved on since the 60s and 70s when this happened frequently. Defenders are alot more mobile and athletic and probably even stronger and harder to beat. Attackers have got better aswell but it appears they cancel themselves out alot more now.

I wouldn;t say Levein goes for the 1-0 win route anymore than the next manager, although his tactics away from home need fine tuning drastically. I'm not concerned by Levein's style of management, there are obvious faults he has but I actually enjoy the football we play when we get it right. Even when we don't get it right we still create a fair few chances, with a clinical finisher i'd hope we'd put these chances away even in a game we aren't playing particularly well in.

Levein was defensive up in Scotland, Hearts fans will back that up. He didn't sign as many attacking players as he has down here. There is no way Hearts had 4 strikers like he's signed here and they didn't have a winger like Smith. That shows that Levein cannot be compared to his style of management from his time at Hearts as it's obvious he's learnt from his time up there and is aware he needs to be more positive and attack minded in England.

Statistics might say we have lots of shots but many are speculative efforts from distance. We really don't break defences down because our final ball doesn't hurt. Smith is a great example of this and highlights the point that Levein is NOT a natural attacking manager. He just doesn't get the best out of forwards be it Hume, Hammond, Hamill or, especially, Smith. But our penetration from midfield and defence is lacking too - it really has to be a collective thing to be effective with stable partnerships helping the understanding.

Levein, for me, concedes the initiative far too many times even before we start and never fields a team with all players in their natural position. Consequently they rarely function as a cohesive unit. Five League games with one outfield goal hardly spells "attack" in coloured lights and our League position spells out the folly of his lack of conviction in capital letters to me.

[woznotwos]

SPOT ON THERE THRACIAN,BUT IN AGREEMENT WITH A LOT OF WHATS BEEN SAID,YOU ALL GIVE YOUR POINTS OF VIEW SO WELL.OR IS IT IM GULLIBLE? I DUNNO.....

[Michael Doyle]

And thats why its great being a LCFC supporter. Even though you may disagree with other posts at least they have some substance to back up the comment. If people were just saying sack him because he is useless, to me, thats the easy way out. Debates like the ones above are always thought provoking and well worth the read.

Just to clarify I am as frustrated at our position as most but I do believe that CL is doing a good job, with limited resouse on a shoe string budget. Agreeing with some of the comments above, if as a team, we hit our straps I think we will be a force to be contended with. After all this current squad have only played 33 (I think it is) games together. Who knows what Fryatt will do? but judging from the very positive posts from Walsall supporters he should do well. Hopefully we get a win at Sheffield on Saturday, win our game in hand and get on the run that we are all desperate to see eventuate. The momentum gained from the fantastic win against Tottenham must be used to 'Spur' (excuse the pun) us all on.

COME ON YOU MIGHTY FOXES

MadMick

[Ric Flair]

Statistics might say we have lots of shots but many are speculative efforts from distance. We really don't break defences down because our final ball doesn't hurt. Smith is a great example of this and highlights the point that Levein is NOT a natural attacking manager. He just doesn't get the best out of forwards be it Hume, Hammond, Hamill or, especially, Smith. But our penetration from midfield and defence is lacking too - it really has to be a collective thing to be effective with stable partnerships helping the understanding.

Levein, for me, concedes the initiative far too many times even before we start and never fields a team with all players in their natural position. Consequently they rarely function as a cohesive unit. Five League games with one outfield goal hardly spells "attack" in coloured lights and our League position spells out the folly of his lack of conviction in capital letters to me.

Your right on many points there, but I also don't believe it's as cut and dry as that. Your point about Smith is a good one to raise because with his talent and at the age he is, I doubt he cares about much. I don't think Levein would be issuing him with many tactical instructions, I think Levein wants him to play his own game and use his obvious talent as much as he can.

The reasons why Smith hasn't been firing on all cylinders recently is the same for all the team, they've been playing poorly as a unit and their confidence has suffered massively from it. He'll be back to his best soon, once the team unites and if it can't do that from a massive cup win then I think that answers everyone's questions.

Big game tomorrow, it's just a massive shame we are missing some crucial players. But this is a perfect time for the team to show some passion and fight and muck together to get 3 points in difficult circumstances.

[Thracian]

And thats why its great being a LCFC supporter. Even though you may disagree with other posts at least they have some substance to back up the comment. If people were just saying sack him because he is useless, to me, thats the easy way out. Debates like the ones above are always thought provoking and well worth the read.

Just to clarify I am as frustrated at our position as most but I do believe that CL is doing a good job, with limited resouse on a shoe string budget. Agreeing with some of the comments above, if as a team, we hit our straps I think we will be a force to be contended with. After all this current squad have only played 33 (I think it is) games together. Who knows what Fryatt will do? but judging from the very positive posts from Walsall supporters he should do well. Hopefully we get a win at Sheffield on Saturday, win our game in hand and get on the run that we are all desperate to see eventuate. The momentum gained from the fantastic win against Tottenham must be used to 'Spur' (excuse the pun) us all on.

COME ON YOU MIGHTY FOXES

MadMick

I'm optimistic about Fryatt too especially because he knows Smithy and they could click well together and also judging by the comments on the Walsall site. It's a great pity we'll probably be missing both at Sheffield .

[Thracian]

Your right on many points there, but I also don't believe it's as cut and dry as that. Your point about Smith is a good one to raise because with his talent and at the age he is, I doubt he cares about much. I don't think Levein would be issuing him with many tactical instructions, I think Levein wants him to play his own game and use his obvious talent as much as he can.

The reasons why Smith hasn't been firing on all cylinders recently is the same for all the team, they've been playing poorly as a unit and their confidence has suffered massively from it. He'll be back to his best soon, once the team unites and if it can't do that from a massive cup win then I think that answers everyone's questions.

Big game tomorrow, it's just a massive shame we are missing some crucial players. But this is a perfect time for the team to show some passion and fight and muck together to get 3 points in difficult circumstances.

One or two might get a big chance to make their mark. I'm not pessimistic about Saturday but we do need a performance.

[Ric Flair]

One or two might get a big chance to make their mark. I'm not pessimistic about Saturday but we do need a performance.

If Hamill does play, it's time he took his chance and got stuck in. I'm not expecting him to beat players at ease but surely he's got enough in his locker to give the team some decent service.

[Manwell Pablo]

If Hamill does play, it's time he took his chance and got stuck in. I'm not expecting him to beat players at ease but surely he's got enough in his locker to give the team some decent service.

Agreed if Hamill does play play tommorow he has to show he can play at this level, and thats somthing he's failed to do for since Watford away.

Tommorows probabley the biggest game of the season, we win we have turned a corner in the league finally, lose and its square one.

[fox_in_norwich]

Agreed if Hamill does play play tommorow he has to show he can play at this level, and thats somthing he's failed to do for since Watford away.

Tommorows probabley the biggest game of the season, we win we have turned a corner in the league finally, lose and its square one.

win 1 game and we have most definetely not turned the corner, we have won games before and just lost the game after.

[Manwell Pablo]

win 1 game and we have most definetely not turned the corner, we have won games before and just lost the game after.

Maybe so but a win will make the current situation alot better, will give us two very good back to back wins!