Guantanamo Bay demonstration

[Rincewind]

In that scenario an innocent soldier was killed by one of 500 England fans so by limprisoning them all they are bound to get the guilty party/ies. What is wrong with that? It doesn't matter that 499 of them are innocent according to your codes of justice. I asked if being put in jail for the reasons listed was right or wrong this has not been answered.

[Rincewind]

In Britain if a child is abused and the police have EVIDENCE that one of a group committed the crime they would bring them in one by one for questioning. If needed they would apply to the courts for an extension of holding any particular suspect if the EVIDENCE is strong enough The job of the police is to collect enough EVIDENCE in order to take the alleged perpertrater of the crime to court where the EVIDENCE would be presented before a judge and jury and then and only then if found guilty a punishment would be handed out according to the British law and legal system. Until then the person would be presumed innocent.

You've been watching too much Life On Mars.

[Strokes]

This is getting silly. For those who think its right to detain people for up to five years without charge or little evidence put yourself in this scenario.

You have followed England as a supporter to an European country (or anywhere doesn't matter) You are in a bar having a drink with a couple of mates when all hell breaks loose. Not wanting to get involved you leave the bar and go back to your Hotel which is close by. No sooner you are in the room when the door is broken down and you are dragged away by armed police. You are beaten up then thrown into a cell and denied any phone calls or contact with the British consul. When asked what you have supposed to have done you are told that you are being held in connection with a riot and the murder of one of the countries soldiers who was home on leave in the same bar as you were in. You ask for evidence and they say they only have suspicions at the moment because

1 You have a British passport.

2 You speak English

3 An England shirt was found in your luggage

4 You were in the same country as where the incident took place.

5 You were seen drinking Stella.

Do you think these are good enough reasons to detain you? Would you support their actions?

[Strokes]

In Britain if a child is abused and the police have EVIDENCE that one of a group committed the crime they would bring them in one by one for questioning. If needed they would apply to the courts for an extension of holding any particular suspect if the EVIDENCE is strong enough The job of the police is to collect enough EVIDENCE in order to take the alleged perpertrater of the crime to court where the EVIDENCE would be presented before a judge and jury and then and only then if found guilty a punishment would be handed out according to the British law and legal system. Until then the person would be presumed innocent.

You've been watching too much Life On Mars.

This is war you fool, not crime on our streets. The intelligence gained from these types of things, could well prevent a disaster like 7/7 happening every day somewhere in the world. Surely our nations safety comes first, i bet you wouldn't be so sympathetic if you knew somebody killed or injured by an attrocity.

[l444ry]

In Britain if a child is abused and the police have EVIDENCE that one of a group committed the crime they would bring them in one by one for questioning. If needed they would apply to the courts for an extension of holding any particular suspect if the EVIDENCE is strong enough The job of the police is to collect enough EVIDENCE in order to take the alleged perpertrater of the crime to court where the EVIDENCE would be presented before a judge and jury and then and only then if found guilty a punishment would be handed out according to the British law and legal system. Until then the person would be presumed innocent.

You've been watching too much Life On Mars.

Ken, I still cannot see how you can compare common or garden national legal issues with an international war scenario. We'll just have to agree to disagree here. Never mind, that's what a good debate is about.

[Rincewind]

So its OK to punish somebody then find a crime to fit? What you are saying then is that these prisoners should be treated as prisoners of war as laid out under the terms agreed upon in International law?

[Strokes]

So its OK to punish somebody then find a crime to fit? What you are saying then is that these prisoners should be treated as prisoners of war as laid out under the terms agreed upon in International law?

Yes

[Rincewind]

We might be going round in circles here. But it appears we agree the prisoners should not be held illegally or ill-treated in any way as that would go against agreements under International law. I'll let somebody else reply now.

[Strokes]

We might be going round in circles here. But it appears we agree the prisoners should not be held illegally or ill-treated in any way as that would go against agreements under International law. I'll let somebody else reply now.

Its not illeagal, they are exploiting a loophole, hence the reason they are not in the shit with the un.

[Zingari]

instead of sitting there whining all the time about being held in captivity , why don't they do like the british did and start digging some tunnels while some of their mates pretend to be interested in gardening and then secretly scatter the soil over the garden

alternatively they could organise concert parties or pretend to be jumping over vaulting horses while they dig ; have they no imagination

[Rincewind]

Its not illeagal, they are exploiting a loophole, hence the reason they are not in the shit with the un.

Is there a loophole that says its OK to ill-treat them as well? Which part of the International law is being followed? Exploiting a loophole does not make it right. You stated they should be treated as POW's which it has been proven they are not and that was the whole point of this thread.

I'm off to the Leicester Beer Festival. All are welcome. Tonight from 5.00pm. I may be on the door taking your money or lurking near a beer barrel CAMRA members free.

[Alexikokopops]

We might be going round in circles here. But it appears we agree the prisoners should not be held illegally or ill-treated in any way as that would go against agreements under International law. I'll let somebody else reply now.

Its not illeagal, they are exploiting a loophole, hence the reason they are not in the shit with the un.

You're contradicting yourself.

The US state that the detainees of Guantanamo Bay are, in fact, NOT prisoners of war and so aren't subject to the Third article of the Geneva Convention (which is concerned with the treatment of prisoners of war, including decent conditions and no torture), and this is their defence of the conditions and reported torture.

However in your post before you state that the detainees of Guantanamo Bay should in fact be subject to the third article of the Geneva Convention:

So its OK to punish somebody then find a crime to fit? What you are saying then is that these prisoners should be treated as prisoners of war as laid out under the terms agreed upon in International law?

Yes

Surely if they are subject, as prisoners of war, to the Geneva Convention then what the USA is doing is illegal?

[Webbo]

More likely he got bored by the length of time you've spent NOT backing up any of your arguments with evidence, citations, etc.

I don't want to speak on Dave's behalf but this seems a very juvenile response and one that continues to ignore earlier posts requesting some kind of substance to your arguments.

Guantanamo Bay is an absolute scandal and reflects the knee-jerk reactionary stance of the Americans that we have seen cause so much carnage in the middle east.

The propaganda and sensationalism that has been thrust down our throats since the "war on terror" began has distorted our view of reality - people are now so scared that they accept the horrific stories coming out of places like Guantanamo as just unfortunate and "a necessary by-product of war".

Rubbish. Of course there are people imprisoned that probably should never be released but there are also innocent people who, at the whim of the Americans, and against all international law continue to be imprisoned for no justifiable reason.

It is this arrogance of a nation that makes me the most angry. And 5 and a half years on after September 11th are we really any closer to "winning" the war. From my daily exposure to newspapers, television and other sources it doesn't look like it to me.

The sooner the American administration realise this and give some serious thought to their current methods the better.

let me just say for a start that i'm not defending guantanamo bay. i might disagree with the people protesting against detention without trial in this case, but i see where they've coming from. my objections are to dagenham daves comments that these people are only in prison because 'they're muslim and they look different'. there is not a scrap of evidence for this and in my mind it amounts to inverted racism.

[Dr The Singh]

For me this war is mess, unfortunately one party plays by no 'rules' at all, and does not see or agree to any resolution or convention, only a holy book. How can a war be fairly faught if one side clearly is 'cheating\not playing by the rules????

Although, I agree with many, it does not mean we stoop to 'there' level. There must be answers given for those at guantanomo, even if it means the US saying they are kept to get ingo from!!!

[Phube]

Looks like one of the Tesco milk-shoppers has 'confessed' to planning 11/9 and trying to plan 20 odd more attacks inc. Big Ben and Heathrow!!!

No comment here... just reporting the news!

[Head Honcho]

Looks like one of the Tesco milk-shoppers has 'confessed' to planning 11/9 and trying to plan 20 odd more attacks inc. Big Ben and Heathrow!!!

No comment here... just reporting the news!

This one man for me justifies Guantanamo Bay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Sheikh_Mohammed

[Zingari]

This one man for me justifies Guantanamo Bay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Sheikh_Mohammed

with you there

[Daggers]

As it is in the Caribbean I can't see what they are griping about - stupid Muslims. I'd love a free holiday there because it has the benefit that you would get American food everyday and none of that Cuban bollocks.

[Zingari]

As it is in the Caribbean I can't see what they are griping about - stupid Muslims. I'd love a free holiday there because it has the benefit that you would get American food everyday and none of that Cuban bollocks.

what are cuban bollocks ; are they different to the more usual spherical ones

bollocks to picasso