The Tory Party has ceased to believe in or to stand for anything

[Mort]

It's the ones that believe the Tories have actually changed that get me. As long as they still represent the same middle-class, middle-aged, well-to-do demographic their politics will remain as they ever were.

...don't really know were to start on this one, but it never ceases to amaze me how folks on the left remain so adamant that they have some monopoly on morality, the characterizations of the Tories representing just the interests of the middle classes is as inaccurate as claiming that Labour only represents the interests of the trade unions.

The 'dirty little secret' is this... both Labour-ites and Tories want to introduce polices that help the majority of the country, now the fact that Labour's polices are all-wrong and dont help either the least well off or the middle classes (and tax credits screw the former while Brown's hiking up of taxes screw the later) is neither here nor there.

Sorry, but it just annoys me when people assume that just because someone disagrees with them their somehow "bad", i mean IMHO Gordon Brown is wrong about most things doesn't mean he's a "bad" person... at the same time there are folks who are down right nasty in what they believe and their attitudes to those who hold different views, but their very much in the minority in my experience.

[Thracian]

It's the ones that believe the Tories have actually changed that get me. As long as they still represent the same middle-class, middle-aged, well-to-do demographic their politics will remain as they ever were. Cameron and his spin doctors attempting to make the party look fresh and youthful is ludicrously transparent - he's still just another stiff in a suit to the "youf" of today. Pulling in a few younger bigots to your voting pool because the country's media sensationalism is all a-buzz on the idea of immigration doesn't really count as broadening your demographic.

The Tory party aren't hip and cool, they're like your grandad in a Rolling Stones t-shirt getting "down" with emo-scene-teens.

Besides, this is how politics works, the Opposition pretend they'd do everything better than the current government, they act as neutrally as possible and then BANG you vote for them and the true colours come out. And the Tory colours are blue, now and forever.

I don't vote for anyone but it's comments like yours that would make me forever steer clear of Labour.

Good government should not be for a particular class or age group. It should be for the good of everyone.

[Finnegan]

Those in the poorest areas of the United Kingdom found it fit to vote in Labour and Liberal Democrat representatives to be their member of parliament in the last general election, while the likes of Charnwood were dominated by... who? I'm making no claim that every working class hero in the country votes red and expects some idealistic, utopian, socialist state of pure equality. Nor am I suggesting that everyone with a silver spoon in their mouth is a Tory-voting moral bigot voting in their pals to 'do 'em good.'

But if you pull up the who-voted-what demographics charts from 2005 I'm pretty sure you'll find the average Tory voter is from a considerably wealthier region than that of their opposition and I'm willing to bet the average age of a Conservative party member is notably higher, too. I don't think my sweeping generalisation was all that unfair, really.

Good government should not be for a particular class or age group. It should be for the good of everyone.

Agreed, of course. I'd like to think everyone in the world would agree with that. But let's not be too idealistic about this, there are divides in our nation and we can't pretend that different social, ethnic, age and class groups have different wants and needs that need to be represented and there's unlikely a party that can cater for them all.

[breadandcheese]

Quentin Davies is a liability anyway. Labour is welcome to him. Maybe they can poach Cameron whilst they're at it.

I love the quotes about the mistakes the Tory party made by not appointing Portillo. Firstly, portillo is a grade A tw*t of the highest order. Secondly, they voted someone to lead the party whose policies they believed in, not because of his media savvy. Only now have they done that with David Cameron, which is not really surprising bearing in mind the success both Brown and Blair have had, almost pioneering a new media age of politics.

The Tories are in disarray. Cameron needs to produce policy, and not the sort that he announces, backtracks, sends back to a focus group, jazzes up with a few catchy soundbites, reports to the faithful. Mind you, Brown is exactly the same with his approach to policy. Anyone who thinks different clearly has bought into this Brown trustworthy moral compass image he and his spin team are putting out.

Sadly, I think I won't be voting in the next election. To quote the phrase, we have a choice of new labour or blue labour.

As much as I was vehemently opposed to the policies and ideas of politicians like Tony Benn, I admire him as a man who argued along his beliefs and moral code, not those his spin team had gleemed from a focus group. We need more politicians like him and Thatcher, not necessarily because you agree with their opinions, but because you knew they were committed to their beliefs and "not for turning" simply to score points.

[Webbo]

I live in Charnwood, I'm working class and I vote tory. I my experience the most vociferous labour supporters are middle class Guardian reading poseurs who kid themselves on that they're working class because they watch Eastenders.

[Thracian]

...don't really know were to start on this one, but it never ceases to amaze me how folks on the left remain so adamant that they have some monopoly on morality, the characterizations of the Tories representing just the interests of the middle classes is as inaccurate as claiming that Labour only represents the interests of the trade unions.

The 'dirty little secret' is this... both Labour-ites and Tories want to introduce polices that help the majority of the country, now the fact that Labour's polices are all-wrong and dont help either the least well off or the middle classes (and tax credits screw the former while Brown's hiking up of taxes screw the later) is neither here nor there.

Sorry, but it just annoys me when people assume that just because someone disagrees with them their somehow "bad", i mean IMHO Gordon Brown is wrong about most things doesn't mean he's a "bad" person... at the same time there are folks who are down right nasty in what they believe and their attitudes to those who hold different views, but their very much in the minority in my experience.

Well said Mort. Your enthusiasm for the subject does you credit.

The older I get the sadder I feel really.

This simmering and often unjustified or hypocritcal class warfare makes me sick to be honest.

But I don't really give a shit anymore because the class warriors don't want to lay their flags down and will never willingly abandon their self-righteousness.

The hypocrisy is everywhere? Especially close to home because no-one flaunts their wealth to the point of obscenity more than footballers - those supposed representatives of the working-class-made-good. Who do they vote for I wonder?

Their greed is truly disgusting at times and if they hailed from a public school or otherwise privileged background, they'd be pilloried and shamed mercilessly.

And look at good old Gordon Brown the new leader of Britain's assumed working classes.

Has anyone become more dismissive or unapproachable than the Good God Gordon since he acquired some clout?.

[The People's Hero]

Well said Mort. Your enthusiasm for the subject does you credit.

The older I get the sadder I feel really.

This simmering and often unjustified or hypocritcal class warfare makes me sick to be honest.

But I don't really give a shit anymore because the class warriors don't want to lay their flags down and will never willingly abandon their self-righteousness.

The hypocrisy is everywhere? Especially close to home because no-one flaunts their wealth to the point of obscenity more than footballers - those supposed representatives of the working-class-made-good. Who do they vote for I wonder?

Their greed is truly disgusting at times and if they hailed from a public school or otherwise privileged background, they'd be pilloried and shamed mercilessly.

And look at good old Gordon Brown the new leader of Britain's assumed working classes.

Has anyone become more dismissive or unapproachable than the Good God Gordon since he acquired some clout?.

Never has one man used so many words and said so little.

Particularly liked the accusations of other people being self-righteous and hypocritical!

Surely even you can't fail to appreciate the irony in your accusations of hypocrisy.

[Katy]

Too right!!

How dare you diss Duran Duran.

Oh I dare alright. Bunch of nansters!

[Mort]

Those in the poorest areas of the United Kingdom found it fit to vote in Labour and Liberal Democrat representatives to be their member of parliament in the last general election, while the likes of Charnwood were dominated by... who? I'm making no claim that every working class hero in the country votes red and expects some idealistic, utopian, socialist state of pure equality. Nor am I suggesting that everyone with a silver spoon in their mouth is a Tory-voting moral bigot voting in their pals to 'do 'em good.'

But if you pull up the who-voted-what demographics charts from 2005 I'm pretty sure you'll find the average Tory voter is from a considerably wealthier region than that of their opposition and I'm willing to bet the average age of a Conservative party member is notably higher, too. I don't think my sweeping generalisation was all that unfair, really.

But to describe anyone as a "bigot" just because they disagree with you isn't terribly fair is it? I know your saying that your not applying that to everyone but to suggest that pretty mainstream views are "bigoted" simply because they don't conform to what you think is 'right' is pretty narrow minded.

As for party identification its not nearly as closely linked to social background as some people seem to think, Labour's support at the last general election declined amoungst 'working class' voters and grew amoungst the most affluent while the opposite was the case with the Tories... so its not all black and white, indeed historically there has been a long established working class tory vote.

But as a rule yes the most affluent tend to be Conservative supporters while the most disadvantaged (when they do vote) tend to be Labour supporters, but that is a massive simplification... indeed the party with the wealthiest membership are the LibDems (apparently) and both the libdems and labour get a lot of support from affluent, urban areas ("guardian man and woman") and that wouldn't seem to fit with your own characterization of voting behavior clearly defined by social background.

In short its not as simple as "working class = labour" or "middle class = conservative"... and never has been, in fact if anything is becoming more complicated.

In my experience the most vociferous labour supporters are middle class Guardian reading poseurs who kid themselves on that they're working class because they watch Eastenders.

Very true... one of the things that turned me off the Labour party was the dismissive, condescending, attitude of the "guardian reading set" to working class voters, in fact its something which really irks me if I'm honest.

[Daggers]

I my experience the most vociferous labour supporters are middle class Guardian reading poseurs who kid themselves on that they're working class because they watch Eastenders.

Abject bollocks.

Coronation Street is far more working class than Eastenders.

[Head Honcho]

But to describe anyone as a "bigot" just because they disagree with you isn't terribly fair is it? I know your saying that your not applying that to everyone but to suggest that pretty mainstream views are "bigoted" simply because they don't conform to what you think is 'right' is pretty narrow minded.

As for party identification its not nearly as closely linked to social background as some people seem to think, Labour's support at the last general election declined amoungst 'working class' voters and grew amoungst the most affluent while the opposite was the case with the Tories... so its not all black and white, indeed historically there has been a long established working class tory vote.

But as a rule yes the most affluent tend to be Conservative supporters while the most disadvantaged (when they do vote) tend to be Labour supporters, but that is a massive simplification... indeed the party with the wealthiest membership are the LibDems (apparently) and both the libdems and labour get a lot of support from affluent, urban areas ("guardian man and woman") and that wouldn't seem to fit with your own characterization of voting behavior clearly defined by social background.

In short its not as simple as "working class = labour" or "middle class = conservative"... and never has been, in fact if anything is becoming more complicated.

Very true... one of the things that turned me off the Labour party was the dismissive, condescending, attitude of the "guardian reading set" to working class voters, in fact its something which really irks me if I'm honest.

Fvck me is that the time? Anyone fancy a pint?

[Daggers]

Fvck me is that the time? Anyone fancy a pint?

You buying?

[Head Honcho]

You buying?

...............as always

Sure put the mockers on that thread!

[Ultra]

Well said Mort. Your enthusiasm for the subject does you credit.

The older I get the sadder I feel really.

This simmering and often unjustified or hypocritcal class warfare makes me sick to be honest.

But I don't really give a shit anymore because the class warriors don't want to lay their flags down and will never willingly abandon their self-righteousness.

The class war is a fact of life - and will be for as long certain folk pay astronomical amounts to send their offspring to Eton and such like in order to avoid them mixing with the hoi polloi.

The hypocrisy is everywhere? Especially close to home because no-one flaunts their wealth to the point of obscenity more than footballers - those supposed representatives of the working-class-made-good. Who do they vote for I wonder?

As a lot of them are foreign I doubt whether they vote for anybody. And these days it doesn't matter to them which government gets in as they pay the same (minimal) rate of tax anyway.

Their greed is truly disgusting at times and if they hailed from a public school or otherwise privileged background, they'd be pilloried and shamed mercilessly.

Some of them (eg Frank Lampard) ARE ex-public school - and occasionally it shows in their performances on the field.

And look at good old Gordon Brown the new leader of Britain's assumed working classes.

I think you'll find he is the leader of ALL British people, whether working-class or not, and indeed has pledged to serve on that basis.

Has anyone become more dismissive or unapproachable than the Good God Gordon since he acquired some clout?

That's what sections of the media may have you believe, but having met the guy twice this year, I can say that assessment is as wide of the mark as an Elvis Hammond shot..

[Thracian]

The class war is a fact of life - and will be for as long certain folk pay astronomical amounts to send their offspring to Eton and such like in order to avoid them mixing with the hoi polloi.

As a lot of them are foreign I doubt whether they vote for anybody. And these days it doesn't matter to them which government gets in as they pay the same (minimal) rate of tax anyway.

Some of them (eg Frank Lampard) ARE ex-public school - and occasionally it shows in their performances on the field.

I think you'll find he is the leader of ALL British people, whether working-class or not, and indeed has pledged to serve on that basis.

That's what sections of the media may have you believe, but having met the guy twice this year, I can say that assessment is as wide of the mark as an Elvis Hammond shot..

a) The class war isn't a fact of life to me. I try to respect and appreciate people for what they are and what they do and wealth or lack of it is of no consequence whatsoever to me. A great many people from working class backgrounds and who vote Labour send their children to public schools because they are prepared to pay for what they believe to be the best education they can afford, or not in the case of those who take out a loan!. And why not?. Others choose to spend their money as they choose - on flash cars, exotic holidays, plush houses. What is so wrong with making sacrifices to invest in your kids?.

b) Now and way back football has been portrayed as a sport of the so called working classes just like boxing. Of course there are people from other walks of life but the general perception is there and with justification. It is no use trying to deflect the concept just for convenience.

c) I didn't say he wasn't the leader of all British people.

d) Yes the media do portray him that way - it's hard not to when even his own PR people and security advisers say it is hard to get his ear. But whatever abilities he has I don't think there's any hiding how aloof and unapproachable he is particularly in off-the-cuff situations. Control freak is the phrase sometimes used. Doesn't mean he won't make a good Prime Minister to be fair and I suppose anything will be a relief after Blair's non-stop love affair with the limelight.

[Guest]

Oh I dare alright. Bunch of nansters!

Just because Nick Rhodes likes a bit of makeup, doesn't mean they're all poofters.

I have it on very good authority that John Taylor is all man, and likes the ladies very much.

[breadandcheese]

Some of them (eg Frank Lampard) ARE ex-public school - and occasionally it shows in their performances on the field.

That is possibly one of the most stupid things ever posted, which admittedly is quite an achievement when you bear in mind some of the rubbish posted about trying to get Shaun Wright-Phillips and stuff like that.

To put some form of link between a footballer from an ex-public school background and occasional bad performances is so stupid it shows you up as a fool. So when Gerrard has a bad game, or even players like Drogba, Essien or some other African player who came out of poverty, we should assume that it is partly to do with their background.

[Daggers]

*Ultra's views on Gordy et al*

This may come as a slightly shocking statement, and so I advise people that you may wish to sit down before reading any further.

When it comes to politics - Ultra has it nailed. In over a year I have not disagreed with a single political thing he's said. Moreover, he has put it better than I would ever think of doing.

Wow, huh?!

[Dr The Singh]

This may come as a slightly shocking statement, and so I advise people that you may wish to sit down before reading any further.

When it comes to politics - Ultra has it nailed. In over a year I have not disagreed with a single political thing he's said. Moreover, he has put it better than I would ever think of doing.

Wow, huh?!

What's happening to Foxestalk these days, everyone is appreciating everypones posts!! Can't we all just learn to not get along as usual!!!!

[Hullfox]

What's happening to Foxestalk these days, everyone is appreciating everypones posts!! Can't we all just learn to not get along as usual!!!!

I agree TS.

Errrr, no I don't, sod off.

[The People's Hero]

Is it all just civilised politics discussion in here (not interested)?

Or is there any decent name-calling (interested)?

[Alexikokopops]

Is it all just civilised politics discussion in here (not interested)?

Or is there any decent name-calling (interested)?

You know the black bits in bananas?

Are they tarantula eggs?

[The People's Hero]

You know the black bits in bananas?

Are they tarantula eggs?

I've got a banana for lunch today.

Don't want it now.

(yes, yes they are).

[Finnegan]

But to describe anyone as a "bigot" just because they disagree with you isn't terribly fair is it? I know your saying that your not applying that to everyone but to suggest that pretty mainstream views are "bigoted" simply because they don't conform to what you think is 'right' is pretty narrow minded.

Hey now, hey now. You what? I just threw up two old school stereotypes just to make a point - I also quite clearly said something on the lines of "I'm not saying that..." before hand.

You seem to be trying to drift off my point and leap far too the defensive (and God knows what Thracian's ranting about, does he know himself?), I'm really not trying to seriously stereotype or judge anyone for supporting any party either way (with extreme exceptions), all I'm saying - and you have agreed - is that generally speaking, the Conservative party represent a usually more affluent section of the British community as opposed to the more traditionally left, and center-left wing parties. I in no way mean to patronise, condescend or make judgments about your life experiences but I'd further say that if you were to spend some time in Scotland, Wales or some of the major cities in the country (particularly London and the North) you'd see that represented a lot more clearly. Any party is going to want to serve the needs and wants of their average supporters and hence right-wing politics have traditionally served the better off amongst us.

Yes, that's politics simplified, but I was only ever trying to make a very simple point: Don't believe the Tories have drastically changed just because they've a new "hip" (ahahah) leader and a fresher image. Tony Blair's last few years at Number 10 will have done far, far more for the Tory's new election campaign than any Conservative party propaganda could ever do.

[The People's Hero]

Whoa Whoa Whoa Whoa Whoa!

Kokopops and I were steering this off topic with some applomb.