Remembrance day

[lavrentis]

Lest we forget

[The Year Of The Fox]

Feels good to have the freedom of choice, doesn`t it  

 

Amen

[davieG]

This year, I will wear a poppy for the last time

I will remember friends and comrades in private next year, as the solemnity of remembrance has been twisted into a justification for conflict

 

• 
• • Harry Leslie Smith
  •  

'Come 2014 when the government marks the beginning of the first world war I will declare myself a conscientious objector.' Photograph: Leon Neal/AFP/Getty Images

Over the last 10 years the sepia tone of November has become blood-soaked with paper poppies festooning the lapels of our politicians, newsreaders and business leaders. The most fortunate in our society have turned the solemnity of remembrance for fallen soldiers in ancient wars into a justification for our most recent armed conflicts. The American civil war's General Sherman once said that "war is hell", but unfortunately today's politicians in Britain use past wars to bolster our flagging belief in national austerity or to compel us to surrender our rights as citizens, in the name of the public good.

 

Still, this year I shall wear the poppy as I have done for many years. I wear it because I am from that last generation who remember a war that encompassed the entire world. I wear the poppy because I can recall when Britain was actually threatened with a real invasion and how its citizens stood at the ready to defend her shores. But most importantly, I wear the poppy to commemorate those of my childhood friends and comrades who did not survive the second world war and those who came home physically and emotionally wounded from horrific battles that no poet or journalist could describe.

 

However, I am afraid it will be the last time that I will bear witness to those soldiers, airmen and sailors who are no more, at my local cenotaph. From now on, I will lament their passing in private because my despair is for those who live in this present world. I will no longer allow my obligation as a veteran to remember those who died in the great wars to be co-opted by current or former politicians to justify our folly in Iraq, our morally dubious war on terror and our elimination of one's right to privacy.

 

Come 2014 when the government marks the beginning of the first world war with quotes from Rupert Brooke, Rudyard Kipling and other great jingoists from our past empire, I will declare myself a conscientious objector. We must remember that the historical past of this country is not like an episode of Downton Abbey where the rich are portrayed as thoughtful, benevolent masters to poor folk who need the guiding hand of the ruling classes to live a proper life.

 

I can tell you it didn't happen that way because I was born nine years after the first world war began. I can attest that life for most people was spent in abject poverty where one laboured under brutal working conditions for little pay and lived in houses not fit to kennel a dog today. We must remember that the war was fought by the working classes who comprised 80% of Britain's population in 1913.

 

This is why I find that the government's intention to spend £50m to dress the slaughter of close to a million British soldiers in the 1914-18 conflict as a fight for freedom and democracy profane. Too many of the dead, from that horrendous war, didn't know real freedom because they were poor and were never truly represented by their members of parliament.

 

My uncle and many of my relatives died in that war and they weren't officers or NCOs; they were simple Tommies. They were like the hundreds of thousands of other boys who were sent to their slaughter by a government that didn't care to represent their citizens if they were working poor and under-educated. My family members took the king's shilling because they had little choice, whereas many others from similar economic backgrounds were strong-armed into enlisting by war propaganda or press-ganged into military service by their employers.

 

For many of you 1914 probably seems like a long time ago but I'll be 91 next year, so it feels recent. Today, we have allowed monolithic corporate institutions to set our national agenda. We have allowed vitriol to replace earnest debate and we have somehow deluded ourselves into thinking that wealth is wisdom. But by far the worst error we have made as a people is to think ourselves as taxpayers first and citizens second.

Next year, I won't wear the poppy but I will until my last breath remember the past and the struggles my generation made to build this country into a civilised state for the working and middle classes. If we are to survive as a progressive nation we have to start tending to our living because the wounded: our poor, our underemployed youth, our hard-pressed middle class and our struggling seniors shouldn't be left to die on the battleground of modern life.

[Zingari]

I wish there were still more around like Harry Leslie Smith.

What a great piece    

[ADK]

That's basically the way I feel although he has a lot more authority to comment than I do.

[Captain...]

Something my Dad was telling me the other day about remembrance day, he asked me when the Armistice was signed. I replied the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month.

 

If I was on QI the klaxon would have gone off and I would have mocked like Alan Davies, instead my Dad just looked at me smugly and said no, it was signed at 5:10am on the 11/11

 

It didn't come into effect until 11am. The official reasoning was to allow the information to get through to everyone, but many suspect the 11:00am was chosen because it had a nice ring to it. Incredible I know, but you could very easily imagine it happening today.

 

So what happened in the final 5 hours and 50 minutes after peace was agreed but before it ended?

 

 

This was done at 05.10 on November 11^th. However, the actual ceasefire would not start until 11.00 to allow the information to travel to the many parts of the Western Front. Technology allowed the news to go to capital cities by 05.40 and celebrations began before very many soldiers knew about the Armistice. In London, Big Ben was rung for the first time since the start of the war in August 1914. In Paris, gas lamps were lit for the first time in four years. But on the Western Front, many tens of thousands of soldiers assumed that it was just another day in the war and officers ordered their men into combat.

 

Quite a number of the final casualties were at Mons in Belgium – ironically one of the first major battles of the war in 1914. In a cemetery just outside of Mons in the village of Nouvelle, there are nine graves of British soldiers. Five are from August 1914 while four are dated November 11^th1918.

 

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) states that their records show that 863 Commonwealth soldiers died on November 11^th 1918 – though this figure also includes those who died on that day but of wounds received prior to November 11^th.

 

In particular, the Americans took heavy casualties on the last day of the war. This was because their commander, General John Pershing, believed that the Germans had to be severely defeated at a military level to effectively ‘teach them a lesson’. Pershing saw the terms of the Armistice as being soft on the Germans. Therefore, he supported those commanders who wanted to be pro-active in attacking German positions – even though he knew that an Armistice had been signed. In particular, the Americans suffered heavy casualties attempting to cross the River Meuse on the night of the 10^th/11^th with the US Marines taking over 1,100 casualties alone. However, if they had waited until 11.00, they could have crossed the river unhindered and with no casualties. The 89^th US Division was ordered to attack and take the town of Stenay on the morning of November 11^th. Stenay was the last town captured on the Western Front but at a cost of 300 casualties.

 

The CWGC records that the last British soldier killed in World War One was Private George Edwin Ellison of the 5^th Royal Irish Lancers. He was killed at Mons (where he had also fought in 1914) at 09.30, just 90 minutes before the ceasefire.

 

The last French soldier to die was Augustin Trebuchon from the 415^th Infantry Regiment. He was a runner and was in the process of taking a message to his colleagues at the front informing them of the ceasefire. He was hit by a single shot and killed at 10.50. In total, 75 French soldiers were killed on November 11^th but their graves state November 10^th. Two theories have been forwarded for this discrepancy. The first is that by stating that they died on November 10^th before the war had ended, there could be no question about their family’s entitlement to a war pension. The other theory, is that the French government wanted to avoid any form of embarrassment or political scandal should it ever become known that so many died on the last day of the war.

 

The last Canadian to die was Private George Lawrence Price of the Canadian Infantry (2^nd Canadian Division) who was killed at Mons at 10.58. Officially, Price was the last Commonwealth soldier to be killed in World War One.

 

The last American soldier killed was Private Henry Gunter who was killed at 10.59. Officially, Gunter was the last man to die in World War One. His unit had been ordered to advance and take a German machine gun post. It is said that even the Germans – who knew that they were literally minutes away from a ceasefire – tried to stop the Americans attacking. But when it became obvious that this had failed, they fired on their attackers and Gunter was killed. His divisional record stated:

 

“Almost as he fell, the gunfire died away and an appalling silence prevailed.â€

 

Information about German casualties is more difficult to ascertain. However, it may well be the case that the last casualty of World War One was a junior German officer called Tomas who approached some Americans to tell them that the war was over and that they could have the house he and his men were just vacating. However, no one had told the Americans that the war had finished because of a communications breakdown and Tomas was shot as he approached them after 11.00.

 

Officially over 10,000 men were killed, wounded or went missing on November 11th 1918. The Americans alone suffered over 3,000 casualties. When these losses became public knowledge, such was the anger at home that Congress held a hearing regarding the matter. In November 1919, Pershing faced a House of Representatives Committee on Military Affairs that examined whether senior army commanders had acted accordingly in the last few days of the war. However, no one was ever charged with negligence and Pershing remained unapologetic, remaining convinced that the Germans had got off lightly with the terms of the Armistice. He also stated that although he knew about the timing of the Armistice, he simply did not trust the Germans to carry out their obligations. He therefore, as commander in chief, ordered the army to carry on as it would normally do as any “judicious commander†would have done. Pershing also pointed out that he was merely carrying out the orders of the Allies Supreme Commander, Marshall Ferdinand Foch, that were to “pursue the field greys (Germans) until the last minuteâ€.

 

 

Just something to think about on this day of remembrance.

[Finnaldo]

That's basically the way I feel although he has a lot more authority to comment than I do.

One you with this one. It's a shame as its became a day of viscous nationalism, compared to rememberance of those who died. A lot of people seem to forget that troops from around the empire fought as well. 70,000 Indians died and for what? A war on the other side of the world with no connection to themselves.

People seem to look over this and I've seen some people' claim ''pakis' are ruining Remberamce, when I've only seen the Irish spouting shite about the IRA. I'd imagine there are the usual suspects within the Muslim community, but I'd bet my top dollar that nationalist mob won't ask the Irish to all apologise like they do Muslims.

[Freeman's Wharfer]

I think Remembrance Day is done very well and prominently in the UK, as it should be, but I also agree that in many ways it's losing its focus and being bent to fit the current cultural/political climate.

 

For me Remembrance Day should be about all of those who have lost their lives in military service, not just the British armed forces. On Saturday I watched the minute's silence at Leicester and considered the different nationalities stood around that centre circle. From Wasilewski (Polish) to Schmeichel (Danish) ancestors/relatives/compatriots in every country were affected by the world wars in some way. But that fact is often lost sight of and Remembrance Day is almost claimed as something exclusively British, and even English, here. When we have the parade at half time it always makes me despair at those who chant 'Ingerlund' as they're walking round - there were Welsh, Scottish and Irish fighting alongside the Ingurlish in the wars.

 

When I think of Remembrance Day in recent years I think of the story widely-publicised about the poppies being burned by 'Muslims' and of Facebook statuses along the lines of "people didn't fight for this country so that immigrants could come here and ruin our country". The insecure, stupid and consciously or even sub-consciously racist have hijacked the day and the symbol of the poppy. It's almost used as an anti-Islamic symbol now where all soldiers are heroes, all Muslims are evil and Britain is no longer great. Ironically the sort of small-minded and ignorant attitudes that were resisted through the war!

 

The World Wars were horrific events for all those involved and, for me, Remembrance Day should have its main focus on them. You cannot put a price or value on human life but in my eyes the sacrifices made by those who were called into service, or voluntarily enlisted to go and fight on the front line of brutal battles which determined the freedom of a continent, is greater than that of someone who has chosen to join the army, signed up knowing that they are likely to have to go into battle and who loses their life as an associated occupational hazard. In the World Wars people were genuinely fighting for our liberties and freedoms, don't let anyone feed you the spiel that the motivations for Iraq and Afghanistan are the same or even slightly similar.

 

Of course, that doesn't fit into the accepted social and cultural philosophy these days that those wars are legitimate and that all soldiers who fight are heroes. But it is, and they are, not. The ones who do something heroic within their job receive recognition with a special medal, which is I find the easiest way to determine the hero. The others are just part of a workforce, in a job to which they signed up knowing full well the job description. We should give something back to them? How about the food, clothing, utilities and accommodation they receive either free or heavily subsidised from the British tax payers?

 

Which brings me nicely onto these charities highlighted by Rincewind...

 

Don't forget also the ex-soldiers that do not have families to turn to when leaving the forces.

 

http://downnotoutleicester.wordpress.com/2013/11/04/sacked-soldiers-facing-homelessness-crisis-as-army-cuts-bite/

 

http://www.soldiersoffthestreet.org/

 

Respect for the work that they are doing re-homing people but so what if they are ex-soldiers?!

 

The point is that ex-soldiers form 1 in 10 of homeless people on the street. What about the other 9? What about the other 9 who have not been in employment whereby they can save money whilst living in the army barracks? I've got a mate in the army and he thinks its great that he can leave his wage accumulating in his bank account whilst the rest of us are in civvy life paying bills/rent/mortgages. Many of the additional 9 will have been through horrific experiences which have led to homelessness for them too so let's look at the 10 and not the one in 10. I just don't see why being an ex-soldier is of any significance whatsoever. Similarly, over the last decade Help For Heroes has become the go-to charity. Again, respect for the work that it does and for the fact that it's a charitable organisation, but I can't help but wonder how much money it has taken away from other causes which help those who, for whatever reason, need assistance through no fault of their own. Not through something that they went into knowing the risk they were taking.

 

Remembrance Day is an important day in the history of both this country and others. Let's not lose sight of who and what it's really about. And let's not lose sight of our ability to think independently when it comes to emotive issues such as war, soldiers and death.

[Monk]

Jeeez, put the daily mail down and cheer up.

 

 I wrote that SIX years ago pal, when the banking shizzle was all going tits up.

 

A year after I wrote that, a good friend was killed in Afghanistan, some very sad reminders on FB over the past few days.

[The Year Of The Fox]

I was working in an industrial estate in Northampton today. I went and sat in my van at 1055 with 5 live on. Doing that kept me out of the way of people asking questions etc. Looking through the windows of the other units i saw not one person stop what they were doing. Bang on the end of the last post a bloody cob van arrived papping its horn thing playing a tune, to which several people came out to get their food. I was gobsmacked in all honesty.

One of the lads on our firm's father in law was in D-Day. He was a member of the Ox and Bucks who arrived at Pegasus Bridge in gliders. He was one of the very first to cross the bridge. It's amazing stuff as WW2 nevermind WW1 seems a world away from present day. It's hard to sometimes remember there are still survivors alive today.

What they and the generation before them did for our country and for the good of mankind will never be forgot. They were kids mainly (even aged above 18) and those below who were prepared to lie about their age in order to protect their country. That simply would not happen if WW3 broke out tomorrow.

[purpleronnie]

 I wrote that SIX years ago pal, when the banking shizzle was all going tits up.

 

A year after I wrote that, a good friend was killed in Afghanistan, some very sad reminders on FB over the past few days.

I know now, IARH pm'd me about that, hadn't noticed the date.

[Stadt]

The generation of people who at 16/17/18 or even 15 who lied about their age to protect our country and other countries, in my mind are the most courageous people this continent has witnessed.

I'm 15 nearly 16 and I couldn't imagine signing up for the army to fight overseas and I wouldn't be filled with confidence with my generation so the people of the war generations are the biggest heroes in this country.

I massively respect current soldiers stationed all over the world but are they really 'heroes'? These are heavily trained consenting adults that get paid a decent wage. It's obviously a difficult job but why are they hailed as 'heroes'?

Anyway, lest we forget.

[The Year Of The Fox]

The generation of people who at 16/17/18 or even 15 who lied about their age to protect our country and other countries, in my mind are the most courageous people this continent has witnessed.

I'm 15 nearly 16 and I couldn't imagine signing up for the army to fight overseas and I wouldn't be filled with confidence with my generation so the people of the war generations are the biggest heroes in this country.

I massively respect current soldiers stationed all over the world but are they really 'heroes'? These are heavily trained consenting adults that get paid a decent wage. It's obviously a difficult job but why are they hailed as 'heroes'?

Anyway, lest we forget.

No theyre not just for signing up, I agree. However i disagree with the 'well they signed up for it' when troops claim hardship etc. At the end of the day we're fortunate people do sign up else conscription would come back into play for people your age (roughly)

There are things that are part of the job. Being shot at being one. But I hate the army when you thimk about troops being ill equipped or having their leave cut short before their tour of duty just to fill G 4S' inadequacies. That stinks IMO.

Oh and who told you the pay was decent? It's bloody awful if youre a corporal or less.

[The Year Of The Fox]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24889924

[Stadt]

No theyre not just for signing up, I agree. However i disagree with the 'well they signed up for it' when troops claim hardship etc. At the end of the day we're fortunate people do sign up else conscription would come back into play for people your age (roughly)

There are things that are part of the job. Being shot at being one. But I hate the army when you thimk about troops being ill equipped or having their leave cut short before their tour of duty just to fill G 4S' inadequacies. That stinks IMO.

Oh and who told you the pay was decent? It's bloody awful if youre a corporal or less.

I'd always thought the pay was ok just not brilliant, I appreciate it's a hard job - it's the opinion of the general public that all soldiers are heroes that I find odd.

[The Year Of The Fox]

I don't think it is the general consensus. I think the starting pay for a Police Constable is 23k and 18k for a Private.

[ADK]

The pay is pretty crap. I'm not sure the public think they are heroes either. A lot of people seem to think the army goes around machine gunning civilians.

[The Year Of The Fox]

The pay is pretty crap. I'm not sure the public think they are heroes either. A lot of people seem to think the army goes around machine gunning civilians.

Again, an equally wrong view from the other end of the spectrum.

[DennisNedry]

I don't think men in the army today or have died in the middle east are heroes, even though I respect their bravery.

 

For me, Rememberance Day is about WW1 and WW2 mostly, where millions of british soldiers died fighting for a cause that was actually worth fighting and dying for. The wars in Iraq etc are nothing on that scale, and the soldiers choose that career, they aren't ordinary chaps sent into battle with very little training.

[The Year Of The Fox]

Agree to an extent. My thoughts on days like today lie with WW1/ WW2 soldiers mainly. We shouldn't underestimate the courage it takes someone to walk out the front door one morning saying bye to his wife/kids/mum or dad and not knowing if he'll ever see them again though

Try thinking about it next time you head off to work. Maybe I'm just too sentimental

[Guest ttfn]

I don't know whether everybody else has a 2 minutes' silence at work, but I did today.

The reception for it was a bloody disgrace. We complain about football fans, pissed out of their skulls at 3pm on a Saturday not properly observing the minute/2 minutes' silence, but I work at a firm with an outstanding reputation for employing the best and brightest young people in the country (humblebrag).

 

So when an announcement was made at 11am saying that there was to be 2 minutes' silence, what happens? Well, I could hear 2 people continuing phone calls on my floor, plus another person who finally wised up 30 seconds in and stopped talking. In addition to them, 80% of the rest of the people there carried on typing, the guy next to me (pretty senior) was shuffling papers and making mark-ups to whatever document he was reviewing and people were just generally keeping busy.

 

The silence is supposed to be a time for reflection. I was surrounded today by people paying (ironically enough) lip service to this tradition. It's an absolute disgrace and I felt ashamed of my work colleagues today. Is there anything so important that you can't delay what you're doing for TWO MINUTES?

[cambridgefox]

I was working in an industrial estate in Northampton today. I went and sat in my van at 1055 with 5 live on. Doing that kept me out of the way of people asking questions etc. Looking through the windows of the other units i saw not one person stop what they were doing. Bang on the end of the last post a bloody cob van arrived papping its horn thing playing a tune, to which several people came out to get their food. I was gobsmacked in all honesty.

One of the lads on our firm's father in law was in D-Day. He was a member of the Ox and Bucks who arrived at Pegasus Bridge in gliders. He was one of the very first to cross the bridge. It's amazing stuff as WW2 nevermind WW1 seems a world away from present day. It's hard to sometimes remember there are still survivors alive today.

What they and the generation before them did for our country and for the good of mankind will never be forgot. They were kids mainly (even aged above 18) and those below who were prepared to lie about their age in order to protect their country. That simply would not happen if WW3 broke out tomorrow.

Pulled my car over on a country road lay by and stood outside my car with the radio on(5 live) bloke in a van decided to do the same.Little wave to each other and off we went.

[The Year Of The Fox]

Pulled my car over on a country road lay by and stood outside my car with the radio on(5 live) bloke in a van decided to do the same.Little wave to each other and off we went.

Exactly. And how much did 2mins set you back in the grand scheme of things?!

I know we could argue about people's rights (earnt by the people we remember today) to not observe the 2mins, but from what I saw today it was pure ignorance.

[cambridgefox]

Exactly. And how much did 2mins set you back in the grand scheme of things?!

I know we could argue about people's rights (earnt by the people we remember today) to not observe the 2mins, but from what I saw today it was pure ignorance.

yep,most people probably as you say due to ignorance rather than anti

Cost me nothing,I would have been stuck behind a shitflicker around here!

[FoxesAreBlue]

Always stop. Always remember. Last year we were driving home and were less than 60 seconds from the driveway and still pulled over and stopped.

This year was was visiting my 11 month old cousin and just holding him whilst we were playing. Oviously he has no idea what is going on but he was good and hardly made a noise himself.