In God's name - 200 lashes + for gang-rape victim.

[Wherethefoxhat?]

From Yahoo News:

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia

The Saudi judiciary on Tuesday defended a court verdict that sentenced a 19-year-old victim of a gang rape to six months in jail and 200 lashes because she was with an unrelated male when they were attacked.

The Shiite Muslim woman had initially been sentenced to 90 lashes after being convicted of violating Saudi Arabia's rigid Islamic law requiring segregation of the sexes.

But in considering her appeal of the verdict, the Saudi General Court increased the punishment. It also roughly doubled prison sentences for the seven men convicted of raping the woman, Saudi news media said last week.

The reports triggered an international outcry over the Saudis punishing the victim of a terrible crime.

But the Ministry of Justice stood by the verdict Tuesday, saying that "charges were proven" against the woman for having been in a car with a man who was not her relative.

The ministry implied the victim's sentence was increased because she spoke out to the press. "For whoever has an objection on verdicts issued, the system allows an appeal without resorting to the media," said the statement, which was carried on the official Saudi Press Agency.

The attack occurred in 2006. The victim says she was in a car with a male student she used to know trying to retrieve a picture of her. She says two men got into the car and drove them to a secluded area where she was raped by seven men. Her friend also was assaulted.

Justice in Saudi Arabia is administered by a system of religious courts according to the kingdom's strict interpretation of Islamic law.

Judges have wide discretion in punishing criminals, rules of evidence are vague and sometimes no defense lawyer is present. The result, critics say, are sentences left to the whim of judges. A rapist, for instance, could receive anywhere from a light sentence to death.

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack avoided directly criticizing the Saudi judiciary over the case, but said the verdict "causes a fair degree of surprise and astonishment."

"It is within the power of the Saudi government to take a look at the verdict and change it," McCormack said.

Canada's minister for women's issues, Jose Verger, has called the sentence "barbaric."

The New York-based Human Rights Watch said the verdict "not only sends victims of sexual violence the message that they should not press charges, but in effect offers protection and impunity to the perpetrators."

The LAST thing it was done in was "In God's Name" !!!!!!

[Thracian]

The LAST thing it was done in was "In God's Name" !!!!!!

"Justice in Saudi Arabia is administered by a system of religious courts according to the kingdom's strict interpretation of Islamic law."

[Daggers]

You are totally wrong about that. Indeed you sound exactly like TPH in giving a totally false impression

Your first post detailed no opinion or comment.

Your second post "I've never known the human rights lobby so quiet." makes no argument or reasoned point.

Where is the misrepresentation then Tony?

You continue in your belligerence, trying to seek an online row for its own sake.

Pathetic.

[Thracian]

Your first post detailed no opinion or comment.

Your second post "I've never known the human rights lobby so quiet." makes no argument or reasoned point.

Where is the misrepresentation then Tony?

You continue in your belligerence, trying to seek an online row for its own sake.

Pathetic.

I was and still am surprised that human rights supporters on FoxesTalk are so quiet about this issue because it raises so many questions.

Nor is it at all unusual for me to raise an issue without passing comment at the outset, particularly when the forum is so quiet.

There is no question about my wish to prompt debate.

Rowing usually means the point of all discussion has ended.

But you'll believe what you like. I am quite sure of that.

[Hullfox]

I was and still am surprised that human rights supporters on FoxesTalk are so quiet about this issue because it raises so many questions.

Nor it is at all unusual for me to raise an issue without passing comment at the outset, particularly when the forum is so quiet.

There is no question about my wish to prompt debate.

Rowing usually means the point of all discussion has ended.

But you'll believe what you like. I am quite sure of that.

I'm not sure what you feel is missing Thrach.

Are you expecting us to condone or condemn the judgement?

[Zingari]

I'm not sure what you feel is missing Thrach.

Are you expecting us to condone or condemn the judgement?

just my opinion

not too sure, but i think his main thrust is that society ( most importantly islamic leaders living here ) "seems" to tolerate the barbaric practices around the world and that there appears to be moves to bring some of them to britain ( indeed, perhaps already being practiced here)

whether these are daily mail type scare stories i do not know but i do not think he alone in his concern and maybe with some justification

i do not believe that muslims are so often vilified and mistrusted by so many people is purely because they get a bad press or that we just do not understand enough about their religion and have not read enough books on the subject ( so not allowed an opinion)

its often claimed to be a religion of peace and love but it often appears quite the opposite

[Thracian]

I'm not sure what you feel is missing Thrach.

Are you expecting us to condone or condemn the judgement?

Unless there are Muslims on site who are willing to explain the thinking about such a sentence I would be surprised if there were many , if any, who would condone it.

But I wouldn't dream of pre-judging any comment from those who might condemn it or think it was nothing to do with us.

Certainly I Zingari seems to have made some interesting points.

[Nationwider]

I don't have any comment on Islam as such. I'm not interested in it, so far as those that practice it leave me alone to my own beliefs.

In 2007, I just find the notion of a society that segregates its citizens on any grounds ridiculous. Why the hell were we indulging their King over here last month either? I wonder if anyone brought it up in conversation over the Pringles and salsa dip at Buck House?

[Thracian]

I haven't said anything on the issue because quite frankly I think there is nothing to be said.

For what it's worth, I see the judgement as fairly deplorable.

That said, I have such little knowledge of islamic law, culture, tradition etc that presenting a genuine 'opinion' as such on it would be only as valid and useful as any comment which you would make on football, leicester city football club or in fact anything else.

It's a sensitive issue and not one which I fancy commenting on whilst being unarmed with any of the relevant facts, just a subjective piece in the media, posted by a poster who has his own discourse and it certainly isn't the pursuit of a reasoned argument.

Fascinating.

[Koke]

I usually avoid these kind of threads but all I will say on this that this isn't the only appauling, biased, double-stanarded and completely cowardly law that exist in that excuse of a country. It is un-islamic and the leaders of that country more often than take the laws into their own hands. Having spent time in Saudi Arabia (1994, 1999 and 2002) you do get to see a lot more things that usually won't hit the media spot light in the Western world.

That's all I have to say.

[Lemon Harpic]

I usually avoid these kind of threads but all I will say on this that this isn't the only appauling, biased, double-stanarded and completely cowardly law that exist in that excuse of a country. It is un-islamic and the leaders of that country more often than take the laws into their own hands. Having spent time in Saudi Arabia (1994, 1999 and 2002) you do get to see a lot more things that usually won't hit the media spot light in the Western world.

That's all I have to say.

Let's make one thing absolutely clear: The Saudis who lashed this girl were only doing as their holy book commanded them. They were acting as model Muslims. The un-Islamic behaviour comes from the far more dangerous elements, kafirs like Islam Is Peace, who cherry-pick all the 'nice' bits from the Koran and try to ignore the violence, misogyny, anti-semitism and sheer backward retardedness contained therein.

The aim of Islam Is Peace is to get us to all view being a Muslim as a harmless, acceptable choice. It isn't. It is no more acceptable, morally, to be a Muslim than it is to be a Nazi. The only difference, in reality, is that Islam has much better PR than Nazism.

The parallels between the brutally messianic personalities of the prophet Muhammed and Adolf Hitler are scary.

[Koke]

Let's make one thing absolutely clear: The Saudis who lashed this girl were only doing as their holy book commanded them. They were acting as model Muslims. The un-Islamic behaviour comes from the far more dangerous elements, kafirs like Islam Is Peace, who cherry-pick all the 'nice' bits from the Koran and try to ignore the violence, misogyny, anti-semitism and sheer backward retardedness contained therein.

The aim of Islam Is Peace is to get us to all view being a Muslim as a harmless, acceptable choice. It isn't. It is no more acceptable, morally, to be a Muslim than it is to be a Nazi. The only difference, in reality, is that Islam has much better PR than Nazism.

The parallels between the brutally messianic personalities of the prophet Muhammed and Adolf Hitler are scary.

Have you read the Quran? I don't want to open a can of worms here but you mumbling utter rubbish.

[Manwell Pablo]

Have you read the Quran? I don't want to open a can of worms here but you mumbling utter rubbish.

Don't rise to it he just talks shite to get a reaction.

[Lemon Harpic]

Have you read the Quran? I don't want to open a can of worms here but you mumbling utter rubbish.

"Close your hearts to pity. Act brutally"

-- Adolf Hitler.

"Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not."

-- Koran 2:216

Both Hitler and Muhammad laid out ideological systems for world domination (Koran 2:193 makes this clear: "And fight them until ... religion is for Allah") in order to satisfy their own egos. These systems were to be spread not by peaceful means but by the sword ("And slay them [disbelievers] wherever ye find them." Koran 2:191).

Although it comes from scriptures, rather than the Koran, Sharia law (part of Islam) is just as brutally authoritarian as any Fuhrer Directive. Just ask Gang Rape 200 Lashes woman.

To pretend that these clear and grotesque calls for violence don't exist, to try to wish them away, is to bury your head in the sand. It may be uncomfortable for you, but it is important - critically important - to face up to reality. Islam is not some fluffy, progressive, touchy-feely religion. It's not just some benign anachronism for the enlightened to chuckle at. Islam is backwards, violent, and wrong. That is the truth, no matter how much Islam Is Peace like to dishonestly 'spin' it.

I've forgotten more about Islam, Muhammad, Sharia etc etc than Manwell Pablo will ever know. He has nothing worthwhile to contribute to grown-up discussion. Just try to tune him out.

[Manwell Pablo]

"Close your hearts to pity. Act brutally"

-- Adolf Hitler.

"Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not."

-- Koran 2:216

Both Hitler and Muhammad laid out ideological systems for world domination (Koran 2:193 makes this clear: "And fight them until ... religion is for Allah") in order to satisfy their own egos. These systems were to be spread not by peaceful means but by the sword ("And slay them [disbelievers] wherever ye find them." Koran 2:191).

Although it comes from scriptures, rather than the Koran, Sharia law (part of Islam) is just as brutally authoritarian as any Fuhrer Directive. Just ask Gang Rape 200 Lashes woman.

To pretend that these clear and grotesque calls for violence don't exist, to try to wish them away, is to bury your head in the sand. It may be uncomfortable for you, but it is important - critically important - to face up to reality. Islam is not some fluffy, progressive, touchy-feely religion. It's not just some benign anachronism for the enlightened to chuckle at. Islam is backwards, violent, and wrong. That is the truth, no matter how much Islam Is Peace like to dishonestly 'spin' it.

I've forgotten more about Islam, Muhammad, Sharia etc etc than Manwell Pablo will ever know. He has nothing worthwhile to contribute to grown-up discussion. Just try to tune him out.

haha, I now very little about Muslims or the Koran and seeing as I am not one I don't have any desire to know. I've not even claimed to know anything about it.

I know you talk crap due to your comments about football, a subject you thankfully never post about anymore after being outed as the moron that you are for thinking Paraguay and Trinidad and Tobago would get a result against England and that Sweden would trounce them.

[Hullfox]

I've forgotten more about Islam, Muhammad, Sharia etc etc than Manwell Pablo will ever know. He has nothing worthwhile to contribute to grown-up discussion. Just try to tune him out.

That may well be the case LH but not having a great knowledge about a particular subject does not exclude you from contribution to a debate, indeed it may make your contribution a tad more objective.

Your attack on MP however is plain nonsense.

[Lemon Harpic]

haha, I now very little about Muslims or the Koran and seeing as I am not one I don't have any desire to know. I've not even claimed to know anything about it.

I know you talk crap due to your comments about football, a subject you thankfully never post about anymore after being outed as the moron that you are for thinking Paraguay and Trinidad and Tobago would get a result against England and that Sweden would trounce them.

Unbelievable.

Tell me, because I know so little about the sport, did England qualify for Euro Soccerball Championships '08?

How many people were able to predict, pre WC2006, that a) England would be absolutely pathetic at the upcoming World Cup and that b) ENGLAND WOULD NOT QUALIFY FOR EURO 2008?

No seriously, I'm asking. How many other people predicted that England would fail to qualify before they even kicked a ball?

Judging from your posting style, you're obviously only ten years old. When you get a little older you'll learn to spot a laughably overrated team of talentless prima donnas when you see one. More importantly, you'll learn to take all the inevitable pre-tournament tabloid jingoism with a pinch of salt and evaluate a team objectively. How many people predicted England would win WC06? Why don't you ever pick on them?

Until you gain that extra bit of experience, until you've been an England fan for long enough to know never to believe the hype, you're better off keeping your mouth shut.

[Lemon Harpic]

That may well be the case LH but not having a great knowledge about a particular subject does not exclude you from contribution to a debate, indeed it may make your contribution a tad more objective.

Your attack on MP however is plain nonsense.

Not having a great knowledge about a particular subject does exclude you from accusing infinitely better-informed posters of talking shite.

At least it should.

[Lineker's Left Foot]

From Yahoo News:

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia

The Saudi judiciary on Tuesday defended a court verdict that sentenced a 19-year-old victim of a gang rape to six months in jail and 200 lashes because she was with an unrelated male when they were attacked.

The Shiite Muslim woman had initially been sentenced to 90 lashes after being convicted of violating Saudi Arabia's rigid Islamic law requiring segregation of the sexes.

But in considering her appeal of the verdict, the Saudi General Court increased the punishment. It also roughly doubled prison sentences for the seven men convicted of raping the woman, Saudi news media said last week.

The reports triggered an international outcry over the Saudis punishing the victim of a terrible crime.

But the Ministry of Justice stood by the verdict Tuesday, saying that "charges were proven" against the woman for having been in a car with a man who was not her relative.

The ministry implied the victim's sentence was increased because she spoke out to the press. "For whoever has an objection on verdicts issued, the system allows an appeal without resorting to the media," said the statement, which was carried on the official Saudi Press Agency.

The attack occurred in 2006. The victim says she was in a car with a male student she used to know trying to retrieve a picture of her. She says two men got into the car and drove them to a secluded area where she was raped by seven men. Her friend also was assaulted.

Justice in Saudi Arabia is administered by a system of religious courts according to the kingdom's strict interpretation of Islamic law.

Judges have wide discretion in punishing criminals, rules of evidence are vague and sometimes no defense lawyer is present. The result, critics say, are sentences left to the whim of judges. A rapist, for instance, could receive anywhere from a light sentence to death.

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack avoided directly criticizing the Saudi judiciary over the case, but said the verdict "causes a fair degree of surprise and astonishment."

"It is within the power of the Saudi government to take a look at the verdict and change it," McCormack said.

Canada's minister for women's issues, Jose Verger, has called the sentence "barbaric."

The New York-based Human Rights Watch said the verdict "not only sends victims of sexual violence the message that they should not press charges, but in effect offers protection and impunity to the perpetrators."

That's what ought to happen to Paedophiles, Rapists, Murderers and any Criminal Scum over here... they wouldn't do it again then would they??

[Zingari]

Let's make one thing absolutely clear: The Saudis who lashed this girl were only doing as their holy book commanded them. They were acting as model Muslims. The un-Islamic behaviour comes from the far more dangerous elements, kafirs like Islam Is Peace, who cherry-pick all the 'nice' bits from the Koran and try to ignore the violence, misogyny, anti-semitism and sheer backward retardedness contained therein.

The aim of Islam Is Peace is to get us to all view being a Muslim as a harmless, acceptable choice. It isn't. It is no more acceptable, morally, to be a Muslim than it is to be a Nazi. The only difference, in reality, is that Islam has much better PR than Nazism.

The parallels between the brutally messianic personalities of the prophet Muhammed and Adolf Hitler are scary.

good points LH and welcome back

how ( and why) do the police justify this attempt to stifle the truth in trying to ban C4 's programme about islamic teachings in britain

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol...icle2902254.ece

would they have tried to stifle an exposure of a militant right wing group preaching hatred in the same way

[James.]

good points LH and welcome back

how ( and why) do the police justify this attempt to stifle the truth in trying to ban C4 's programme about islamic teachings in britain

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol...icle2902254.ece

would they have tried to stifle an exposure of a militant right wing group preaching hatred in the same way

Isn't it really all about interpretation?

Just because Saudi Arabia apply their interpretation of Islam that doesn't mean ALL interpretations are violent, oppressive and fueled by hate.

I am no expert, but I am entitled to an opinion, and it seems clear to me that there are many, many Muslims who apply a peaceful understanding of the religion to their beliefs, their worship and their lives in general.

What Lemon Harpic has written is supremely divisive and in my opinion a very simplified outlook on a highly complex issue.

[Hullfox]

Not having a great knowledge about a particular subject does exclude you from accusing infinitely better-informed posters of talking shite.

At least it should.

You see that's where we do disagree.

Infinitely better informed posters accused of talking shite should be able to argue their point strongly against those without a great knowledge of a subject.

[Zingari]

Isn't it really all about interpretation?

Just because Saudi Arabia apply their interpretation of Islam that doesn't mean ALL interpretations are violent, oppressive and fueled by hate.

I am no expert, but I am entitled to an opinion, and it seems clear to me that there are many, many Muslims who apply a peaceful understanding of the religion to their beliefs, their worship and their lives in general.

What Lemon Harpic has written is supremely divisive and in my opinion a very simplified outlook on a highly complex issue.

i too am not an expert on islam ( i don't really see the need to be an expert when i see transcripts of highly inflammatory teachings that are happening in britain) and i believe that LH and myself are entitled to our opinions as too

and i too believe that many muslims are peaceful but its becoming increasingly clear that many are not .

again the question i was asking is would the police have tried to stop tv programmes that were showing a neo nazi group preaching similar creeds and would you have dismissed rantings of this group as merely having different interpretations of some religious theology

[James.]

i too am not an expert on islam ( i don't really see the need to be an expert when i see transcripts of highly inflammatory teachings that are happening in britain) and i believe that LH and myself are entitled to our opinions as too

and i too believe that many muslims are peaceful but its becoming increasingly clear that many are not .

again the question i was asking is would the police have tried to stop tv programmes that were showing a neo nazi group preaching similar creeds and would you have dismissed rantings of this group as merely having different interpretations of some religious theology

I'm not dismissing anything. If any progress is to be made in our (as in Western society) understanding of the religion then ALL interpretations need to be given sufficient attention. If any progress is going to be made then surely we need to understand what forces contribute to any particular Muslim adopting any particular interpretation.

Ultimately a neo-Nazi group WOULD have a different interpretation of a religious theology. But there is nothing "mere" about it. And yes you're probably right, police would try to stop such a program. But that reflects the society we live in currently and instead of ruing this we should make concerted efforts to deal with the current problems.

Comments such as there is no difference morally between becoming a Nazi or a Muslim are more counter-productive than anything. That is a very blinkered, generalised statement to make and only serves to place barriers in the way of constructive discussion.

[Koke]

i too am not an expert on islam ( i don't really see the need to be an expert when i see transcripts of highly inflammatory teachings that are happening in britain) and i believe that LH and myself are entitled to our opinions as too

and i too believe that many muslims are peaceful but its becoming increasingly clear that many are not .

again the question i was asking is would the police have tried to stop tv programmes that were showing a neo nazi group preaching similar creeds and would you have dismissed rantings of this group as merely having different interpretations of some religious theology

Its a lot more complex than you think. Its all well and good looking at everything from the surface and say "ah Islam is this that and the other" but it requires deeper explanation to things like these. What most people, not you in particular, do is they take a lot of things completely out of context without even having a proper understanding of the subject. You, again not you in particular, can quote me all the so-called verses who approves and teaches violence (which is a complete rubbish statement) to me but its worth as much as the little ginger hair Megson has got left on his head. You need to understand it in the proper context and then come back to me with your critics.