In God's name - 200 lashes + for gang-rape victim.

[Ultra]

When ever something bad happens in a third world country there is always some left wing twat (not you Flynny) that comes out and pretends that we are worse in the west.Boll0x.

But the West will quite happily turn a blind eye to incidents like this when it considers it in its self-interest to do so, just like it tolerated Saddam and his innumerable atrocities for decades.

As far as I'm aware we have never in our history flogged women for being rape victims or ever had the death penalty for being gay. I'm sure someone will come on here now and call me racist, oh well I'll get over it.

You're not racist - just very, very naive. Many rape victims in the UK are not well treated by the judicial system - especially the parasitic vermin who act as defence lawyers for their attackers, and claim (often successfully) that the victims were "asking for it".

And homophobia is still rampant in this country, as Chris Moyles, Jeremy Clarkson, various tabloids and many posters on this forum have proved. In some cases it may drive individuals to commit acts of murder.

So don't go pretending that our society is somehow "perfect" - it isn't, not by a long way.

[Thracian]

Sadly, the few quotes I provided were not taken out of context. They capture the very essence of Islam.

Like the Koran, the Bible is crammed full of contradictory statements. Don't for a second think I'm defending Christianity (a pox on both your houses, I say), but if a Christian decides his religion is about peace and love, then he is free to selectively read the Bible to support that position. If he decides Christianity is about bigotry and intolerance, he has a mountain of evidence in the Bible to support that.

Muslims do not have the luxury of cherry-picking the bits of their Book that they like due to the Islamic doctrine of abrogation. According to the doctrine, whenever there are inconsistencies in the Koran (that is, inconsistencies in the perfect and unchangeable word of God) the later texts supercede the earlier.

The result of this is that all the 'nice' bits of the Koran are abrogated (abolished) in favour of verses such as 9:5 ("Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.") and 9:29 ("Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.").

It's the same story in the Hadeeth (for the benefit of Manwell Pablo, the Hadeeth is the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, and is the second source of Islamic doctrine. The stuff about peace and forgiveness is abrogated by Muhammad's assertion that "I swear by Him who has my soul in his hands, I was sent to you with nothing but slaughter.”

I was sent to you with nothing but slaughter.

I'm not denying that there are parts of the Koran that preach peace and forgiveness, but these texts come earlier on. Later, after Muhammad's flight to Medina, the Koran and Hadeeth get a whole lot nastier.

There is no wiggle room. Islamic doctrine commands Muslims to fight in order to establish Allah’s kingdom on earth, all of the earth, by any means. Just as Hitler commanded Germans to fight in order to establish his Thousand Year Reich in Europe by any means.

Anyone who says Islam is peace is kafir. There's no getting away from that.

It really is a pity that so few people I meet, both young and old, seem to have taken the trouble to read any serious books about Islam.

[Hullfox]

The generalisations that you make are astounding.

Many rape victims in the UK are not well treated by the judicial system

Exactly how many? 10? 20? 30?

I see no defence of those innocent men wrongly accused of rape who have their names splashed across the press whilst their accusers hide behind the anonimity offered by the law.

especially the parasitic vermin who act as defence lawyers for their attackers, and claim (often successfully) that the victims were "asking for it".

How often? 1 in 2 cases? 1 in 3? 1 in 4?

Are these the same parasitic lawyers you would use against other forum members? or are they somehow not parasitic because they would act on your behalf?

And homophobia is still rampant in this country, as Chris Moyles, Jeremy Clarkson, various tabloids and many posters on this forum have proved.

Whoaaaah, hold on there. Don't hide behind the many posters comment. If you're so sure, name names and let's see who you're accusing here.

In some cases it may drive individuals to commit acts of murder.

You know, I read on so many occasions of the murders committed by homophobes and gays I've lost count.

So don't go pretending that our society is somehow "perfect" - it isn't, not by a long way.

Yes we agree. I've re-read some of your posts, Society is indeed far from perfect.

Edit: and before you go off on one I am not condoning rape. My first point was to highlight your wild generalisation only.

[Thracian]

Its a lot more complex than you think. Its all well and good looking at everything from the surface and say "ah Islam is this that and the other" but it requires deeper explanation to things like these. What most people, not you in particular, do is they take a lot of things completely out of context without even having a proper understanding of the subject. You, again not you in particular, can quote me all the so-called verses who approves and teaches violence (which is a complete rubbish statement) to me but its worth as much as the little ginger hair Megson has got left on his head. You need to understand it in the proper context and then come back to me with your critics.

An excellent point and, for that reason, I am quite suprised that no-one of the Muslim faith has come on to explain the reasoning and justification for the judgement.

[Ultra]

An excellent point and, for that reason, I am quite suprised that no-one of the Muslim faith has come on to explain the reasoning and justification for the judgement.

I'm sure Moseeds will respond in due course.

But most Muslims in Leicester and elsewhere would be horrified by the suggestion that this barbarity was somehow in their name.

[Ultra]

The generalisations that you make are astounding.

Exactly how many? 10? 20? 30?

I see no defence of those innocent men wrongly accused of rape who have their names splashed across the press whilst their accusers hide behind the anonymity offered by the law.

It's a fairly well-known fact that less than FIVE PER CENT of rape cases reported to police in the UK result in a conviction. This cannot entirely be explained by the argument that victims are acting maliciously.

The fact that the victims do have anonymity is to protect them from further harassment and vilification. Some folk in the UK, just as in Saudi Arabia, refuse to acknowledge that rape is a crime.

Whoaaaah, hold on there. Don't hide behind the many posters comment. If you're so sure, name names and let's see who you're accusing here.

The word "gay" is used almost on a daily basis on here as a term of abuse by folk who should know better. They know who they are..

I would be happy to highlight examples but sadly the search engines on here don't work for words of less than four letters.

Edit: and before you go off on one I am not condoning rape. My first point was to highlight your wild generalisation only.

Hardly a wild generalisation, though, is it?

[Alexikokopops]

It's a fairly well-known fact that less than FIVE PER CENT of rape cases reported to police in the UK result in a conviction. This cannot entirely be explained by the argument that victims are acting maliciously.

The fact that the victims do have anonymity is to protect them from further harassment and vilification. Some folk in the UK, just as in Saudi Arabia, refuse to acknowledge that rape is a crime.

The word "gay" is used almost on a daily basis on here as a term of abuse by folk who should know better. They know who they are..

I would be happy to highlight examples but sadly the search engines on here don't work for words of less than four letters.

Hardly a wild generalisation, though, is it?

gay

[Hullfox]

gay

GAY

[Hullfox]

I would be happy to highlight examples but sadly the search engines on here don't work for words of less than four letters.

But if you were really bothered you would find the proof.

My thoughts are that you want to appear to be standing up for the cause of good but really don't care either way. A bit like shedding tears over starving kids in Africa then popping another Mars Bar down the chute.

[Daggers]

A bit like shedding tears over starving kids in Africa then popping another Mars Bar up the chute.

Shockingly homophobic behaviour.

It is widely accepted that 5% of posters would find such behaviour enough to initiate a legal representation to the owner of the forum threatening to sue their bottom off. Justifiably so in my opinion...this outlandish carry-on should not be acceptable in society.

[Alexikokopops]

GAY

Homophobe.

[Daggers]

Homophobe.

Sue his arse off.

His big full, squidgy arse.

[Thracian]

I did read the link and I'm in agreement with you that its an atrocious act.

The West is not worse per se. But I constantly say (not on here but generally speaking) that Saudi Arabia is not a country that should be taken as an example and I even said before that they are a despicable, cowards, atrocious and gutless country.

Hell, look at Egypt, Morroco, Jordan, Oman, Lebanon, Tunisia, UAE etc. All are good muslim countries and rarely (if any) do we hear such acts as the one in Saudi carried out.

This is just one of many cases. As I've said, I've spent an awful lot of time in Saudi Arabia and let me just put this way. The Royal Al Saud family are a bunch of c*nts.

An especially interesting point seeing their scholars and religious leaders are presumably interpreting the same scriptures when it comes to justice.

[danny.]

It really is a pity that so few people I meet, both young and old, seem to have taken the trouble to read any serious books about Islam.

But people don't care what the relgion says, only the implementation - that is what effects people, the injustice, the terrorism. The same with Christianity (not so much now but definately in the past). And like it or not, Islam is generally implemented in a barbaric, disgusing, intolerant, violent way - regardless of what the qur'an teaches.

[Thracian]

"Justice in Saudi Arabia is administered by a system of religious courts according to the kingdom's strict interpretation of Islamic law."

I would add that it would appear the full story has not quite been told by Yahoo News. It would seem that the girl involved, far from just unlawfully and unwisely taking a ride with a man had, in fact, confessed to an affair at least according to today's Daily Mail.

Nothing is said about how that confession came about but, if true and if obtained without duress, it is clear the offence is a serious one under Islamic law. It is also clear that the worldwide reaction to the sentence from people unafraid to voice their opinions has wrankled with the Saudis.

Revelation of the woman's affair still does not make the "crime" serious enough for me to understand why a woman who has already as a consequence become a victim of such a brutal gang rape, should then be subjected not only to prison but to 200 lashes, in effect an additional assault which would likely do her lasting damage, perhaps even kill her either now or later.

I would fail to understand what human being could degrade himself by carrying out such a sentence on a woman.

I would also question what human being could assume the authority to represent God in such a way and would wonder if he were not so much prescribing the will of God but instead acting in the interests of man and for man's own ends. Given the fact that it was a religious court I would suggest that it would be a serious sin indeed were that the case.

You see I can understand that the sentence would put the Fear of God into women and that their fear would make them more likely to subject themselves to the doctrine of Islam. But faith should come from within and should not be coerced or enforced which, I believe, is understood within Islam - certainly when seeking converts.

There would be many ways in which a faltering but essentially Faithful and Believing woman might be encouraged to better understand the path to which she has committed herself should that be her true desire without resorting to brutality of any kind.

And should her Faith not be sufficiently strong then surely she should be cast out and allowed to go down her own path, sad though the Faithful might think it to be. The problem then, of course, might be that others would wish to tread that path away from Islam.

That of course might weaken the cause of Islam on earth (it might eventually do the opposite too) but whichever I wouild ask is that a problem for God or for Man and Man's desire to dominate and control? Surely God would wish his followers to believe of their own free will.

This point often extends to other religions and has done since time immemorial. Only today we have reports that Tony Blair was afraid to emphasise his Christian beliefs while Prime Minister for fear of being ridiculed as a wacko.

But in what way could Tony Blair put himself forward as a true believer instead of the hypocrite he is.

a) As a Christian he wilfully and repeatedly ignored the unambiguous Commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill" by ordering and sustaining deadly and financially wasteful wars in Iraq and Afghanistan which have seen tens of thousands of people killed including many totally innocent men, women and children and also the widespread destruction of habitat.

b) He mocked his religion by playing down his beliefs because he preferred to power of being Prime Minister and lacked the belief that his public would accept him for what he was. What sort of faith is that?

[Thracian]

But people don't care what the relgion says, only the implementation - that is what effects people, the injustice, the terrorism. The same with Christianity (not so much now but definately in the past). And like it or not, Islam is generally implemented in a barbaric, disgusing, intolerant, violent way - regardless of what the qur'an teaches.

I actually believe there are millions of Muslims who believe in the peaceful and humane practice of their beliefs and, just as many Christians would have been sickened by the actions of the Inquisiation etc, there are those who believe in the earliest interpretations of Mohammed's word rather than those which have followed.

[Zingari]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7112929.stm

another evil doer

[hairy]

Well you said it. I can't remember the exact words but I remember you saying you were quite chuffed with it. If your denying that then you even more of a wind up merchant than I first thought, quite funny that me and Daggers both remember you saying at it is all

I remember too. He said it was the greatest day in history for the starving people of the world or something along those lines.

[Koke]

Sadly, the few quotes I provided were not taken out of context. They capture the very essence of Islam.

Like the Koran, the Bible is crammed full of contradictory statements. Don't for a second think I'm defending Christianity (a pox on both your houses, I say), but if a Christian decides his religion is about peace and love, then he is free to selectively read the Bible to support that position. If he decides Christianity is about bigotry and intolerance, he has a mountain of evidence in the Bible to support that.

Muslims do not have the luxury of cherry-picking the bits of their Book that they like due to the Islamic doctrine of abrogation. According to the doctrine, whenever there are inconsistencies in the Koran (that is, inconsistencies in the perfect and unchangeable word of God) the later texts supercede the earlier.

The result of this is that all the 'nice' bits of the Koran are abrogated (abolished) in favour of verses such as 9:5 ("Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.") and 9:29 ("Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.").

It's the same story in the Hadeeth (for the benefit of Manwell Pablo, the Hadeeth is the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, and is the second source of Islamic doctrine. The stuff about peace and forgiveness is abrogated by Muhammad's assertion that "I swear by Him who has my soul in his hands, I was sent to you with nothing but slaughter.â€

I was sent to you with nothing but slaughter.

I'm not denying that there are parts of the Koran that preach peace and forgiveness, but these texts come earlier on. Later, after Muhammad's flight to Medina, the Koran and Hadeeth get a whole lot nastier.

There is no wiggle room. Islamic doctrine commands Muslims to fight in order to establish Allah’s kingdom on earth, all of the earth, by any means. Just as Hitler commanded Germans to fight in order to establish his Thousand Year Reich in Europe by any means.

Anyone who says Islam is peace is kafir. There's no getting away from that.

The first bold text that I've highlighted, you have taken it completely out of context. It basically means fight to sustain and follow your religion in peace. If people try to disrupt you, do not let that happen and fight against such of those.

The second bold text is just complete bollocks. Its utterly fabricated stuff. Give me the proper source for where you got this from.

But people don't care what the relgion says, only the implementation - that is what effects people, the injustice, the terrorism. The same with Christianity (not so much now but definately in the past). And like it or not, Islam is generally implemented in a barbaric, disgusing, intolerant, violent way - regardless of what the qur'an teaches.

If Islam "generally is implemented in a barbaric, disgusing, intolerant, violent way - regardless of what the qur'an teaches" then please explain to me why there is such a high number of the ever so growing Muslim converts here in this country as well as other Western countries.

An excellent point and, for that reason, I am quite suprised that no-one of the Muslim faith has come on to explain the reasoning and justification for the judgement.

You absolutely spot on. I'll even go as far as saying all the on-going backlash between the Muslims and the non-muslims, including the ever so biased press, is mainly down to us. It is our responsibility to explain what certain aspects of our religion have against certian issues. I remember when the issue over the veil was all over the media and I was listening to phone-ins on radio stations and majority of the callers (who happened to be non-muslim) didn't have the smallest clue about Islam. And yet they got brainwashed by the press and arseholes like Jon **** and they just nodding their heads and agreeing "yes the veil should be banned". At the end of the day, I blame us for most of the backclash happening between us.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7112929.stm

another evil doer

That's just silly though. I really don't know whether to believe or not, because its sounds too silly to be true.

[Lemon Harpic]

But people don't care what the relgion says, only the implementation - that is what effects people, the injustice, the terrorism. The same with Christianity (not so much now but definately in the past). And like it or not, Islam is generally implemented in a barbaric, disgusing, intolerant, violent way - regardless of what the qur'an teaches.

Islam is generally implemented in a barbaric, disgusting, intolerant, violent way - because of what the qur'an teaches.

I wonder, if WWII had gone a little differently would we now consider it the norm that people are afraid to criticize National Socialism for fear of upsetting or offending Nazis? Would polite society look upon past and present Nazi atrocities as some sort of perversion of the peaceful message of Mein Kampf?

Would we have politicians and various pressure groups preaching tolerance and integration of the National Socialist minority in the immediate aftermath of David Copeland's nail bombing campaign?

[James.]

You're spot on Samir.

And it all comes back to my earlier point about interpretation. Lemon Harpic (hypocrite extraordinaire) persists in applying his own interpretation in the same way that Osama Bin Laden applies his interpretation and millions of peace loving Muslims apply theirs.

Simplifying the issue like some on here seem insistent on doing is nonsense.

[Master Fox]

You're spot on Samir.

And it all comes back to my earlier point about interpretation. Lemon Harpic (hypocrite extraordinaire) persists in applying his own interpretation in the same way that Osama Bin Laden applies his interpretation and millions of peace loving Muslims apply theirs.

Simplifying the issue like some on here seem insistent on doing is nonsense.

JTB,

Did you hear about Grooverider in Dubai?

[Thracian]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7112929.stm

another evil doer

Advantage Lemon Harpic!

[Zingari]

The first bold text that I've highlighted, you have taken it completely out of context. It basically means fight to sustain and follow your religion in peace. If people try to disrupt you, do not let that happen and fight against such of those.

The second bold text is just complete bollocks. Its utterly fabricated stuff. Give me the proper source for where you got this from.

If Islam "generally is implemented in a barbaric, disgusing, intolerant, violent way - regardless of what the qur'an teaches" then please explain to me why there is such a high number of the ever so growing Muslim converts here in this country as well as other Western countries.

You absolutely spot on. I'll even go as far as saying all the on-going backlash between the Muslims and the non-muslims, including the ever so biased press, is mainly down to us. It is our responsibility to explain what certain aspects of our religion have against certian issues. I remember when the issue over the veil was all over the media and I was listening to phone-ins on radio stations and majority of the callers (who happened to be non-muslim) didn't have the smallest clue about Islam. And yet they got brainwashed by the press and arseholes like Jon **** and they just nodding their heads and agreeing "yes the veil should be banned". At the end of the day, I blame us for most of the backclash happening between us.

That's just silly though. I really don't know whether to believe or not, because its sounds too silly to be true.

1, maybe because its possible to be as racist, misogynistic, anti semetic and homophobic as they want to be and if criticised they can always claim to be misinterpreted and misunderstood , and with the added bonus of middle class whitey guardianistas trying to make all excuses seem credible

How many more times? ; we know the vast majority of muslims are peaceable but a great many are not and inflammatory teachings are broadcast in british mosques today

2, Pick and choose what you want to bellieve , its the easiest thing to do

[James.]

JTB,

Did you hear about Grooverider in Dubai?

Nope... what's he up to?